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Do you KNOW that your saved?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by JohnR7, Apr 27, 2002.

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  1. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Gel,
    Yes it is wonderful to know we are saved. We are no longer part of this world and Jesus is making a place for us, with our names in the book today and forever. There is no white-out, no eraser marks, in the book of life.

    Mike
     
  2. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    I just want to shake the shoulders of the believer that think that they are not saved yet but they "might' be depending on how they lived their life...when really they are!!
    AHAHAHHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    GEL
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
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    Make sure there is no man, woman, family, or tribe among you today who turns from the LORD our God to worship the gods of those nations. Make sure that no one among you is the source of this kind of bitter poison.

    Someone may hear the conditions of this promise. He may think that he is so blessed that he can say, "I'll be safe even if I go my own stubborn way. After all, [the LORD would never] sweep away well-watered ground along with dry ground." The LORD will never be willing to forgive that person, because the LORD's burning anger will smolder against him. All the curses described in this book will happen to him. The LORD will erase [every memory of] that person's name from the earth.

    Deuteronomy 29:18-20
     
  4. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Lamb's Love,

    There are dispensational issues at work here. Salvation was given (as a gift) at the cross, the system you quoted from the Torah "is ended". (perfected actually)

    You can't just take one part of the old law and apply it, if any of it applies to salvation then all of it does, if that is so, we are all still dead.

    Blessings
     
  5. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
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    So, if a person comes to faith in Christ, but something happens and they abandon the faith and become devout Wiccan or Muslim, are they still saved?
     
  6. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Lamb's Love,

    God promised that if he starts a work in us that he will finish it. The person you describe was never saved. "Many will call me lord" (Jesus asked them "Why do you call me Lord, Lord"? The church has many un-saved.

    Blessings
     
  7. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
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    Then how do you know whether or not you are really saved, until you have lived out your whole life?

    You might think that you are saved, now, but if you abandon the faith later, it means you were never really saved?

    Under that line of thinking, we have to be even more insecure, lest we think that we have faith, but don't really have faith. What if we find out that we don't really have faith?

    What is faith then, but the belief that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is savior? What if we believe that when we are children, but not anymore? Are we still saved?

    What do you do with a guy like Bob Dylan, who as Robert Zimmerman, wrote many Christian songs that we sing in church today, never accepting royalties because he wrote them as offerings to Christ. For 15 years he was a devout Christian, full of faith, then one day a disappointment hit him and he denied Christ. Was he never really saved? Or did he cast aside his faith because of the disappointment?

    What do you do with the parable of the seeds, where they germinate but never prosper or bloom? Were those people always faithless, or did they, like Jesus said, "fall away when things became difficult for them"?

    If so, how can any of us be sure we are saved? Might we not fall away and prove that we never had faith?

    I feel even more insecure when I consider that than I would if I consider that people who turns from God to worship others lose their salvation.
     
  8. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    It breaks my heart when I hear the reasoning, "Well, if that person fell away, he wasn't really saved to begin with."

    What a horrible thing to say! You are basically telling that person, "The feelings, the emotions, the freedom, the salvation, the JOY you may have felt when you THOUGHT you were saved are not valid....obviously."

    If somebody told me that, I'd make sure "God" and THAT church saw nothing but taillights from me. Even Paul said that he couldn't judge the salvation of anyone. That's GOD's job.

    People are such screwups, they do so many stupid things, and our loving, compassionate God knows us so well. I say that we WILL be given as many chances as we need, so long as we can draw breath.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  9. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

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    I agree again VOW (twice in one day!) :)
     
  10. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

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    That's not the law, that's God rightfully demanding us to choose between Him and all others.

    When you married, didn't you expect your husband/wife to choose between you and all others? Wouldn't you be hurt if he/she ran off with another and divorced you? If she leaves you, does it mean that she never loved you, or only that she doesn't love you now? Does it mean that you were never married?
     
  11. PaxTecum

    PaxTecum New Member

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    Scripture tells us that God in his overwhelming love for you and me, has done everything up to and including dying for us so that we could go to heaven. It tells us we may approach the throne of grace with confidence (Hebrews 4:16) and reminds us that the whole point and purpose of Jesus' coming was to bring us to heaven. The whole universe has, in a certain sense, been arranged in order to get us to heaven. But going to heaven is not something that happens by accident or automatically. That is because heaven is the result of a personal relationship with God, and not legal contract, a vending machine reward, or a thing that hits us on the head for no particular reason. It is nothing other than the fruit of having a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. If we cultivate that relationship here on earth by obedience to him and by receiving his life in the sacraments, we can have peaceful confidence that what he began here he will see to fruition in heaven (Philippians 1:6). That is why Jesus commands us to "abide in him" (John 15:4) as branches abide in a vine, waiting for the grapes to ripen. That is, we are to live in hope in Christ's enormous love for us which he has already demonstrated on the Cross, not certitude about an abstraction called "the future". As St. Paul says, "For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience" (Romans 8:24-25). We can, therefore, have confidence and profound hope that we are going to heaven (because we know Jesus loves us), we can't know we are going to heaven (because we don't trust in The Future nor in our ability to read it, but in Jesus). In fact, the presumption that we can know our destiny can often lead people to think that heaven is, in some sense, separate from God; as if we could "have eternal life" yet never have to bother with loving or obeying him. But according to Jesus, "this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). If we remain in him, he will remain in us.

    In Christ,

    :priest:Eric:priest:
     
  12. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Scripture tells us that God in his overwhelming love for you and me, has done everything up to and including dying for us so that we could go to heaven. It tells us we may approach the throne of grace with confidence (Hebrews 4:16) and reminds us that the whole point and purpose of Jesus' coming was to bring us to heaven. The whole universe has, in a certain sense, been arranged in order to get us to heaven. But going to heaven is not something that happens by accident or automatically. That is because heaven is the result of a personal relationship with God, and not legal contract, a vending machine reward, or a thing that hits us on the head for no particular reason. It is nothing other than the fruit of having a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. If we cultivate that relationship here on earth by obedience to him and by receiving his life in the sacraments, we can have peaceful confidence that what he began here he will see to fruition in heaven (Philippians 1:6). That is why Jesus commands us to "abide in him" (John 15:4) as branches abide in a vine, waiting for the grapes to ripen. That is, we are to live in hope in Christ's enormous love for us which he has already demonstrated on the Cross, not certitude about an abstraction called "the future". As St. Paul says, "For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience" (Romans 8:24-25). We can, therefore, have confidence and profound hope that we are going to heaven (because we know Jesus loves us), we can't know we are going to heaven (because we don't trust in The Future nor in our ability to read it, but in Jesus). In fact, the presumption that we can know our destiny can often lead people to think that heaven is, in some sense, separate from God; as if we could "have eternal life" yet never have to bother with loving or obeying him. But according to Jesus, "this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). If we remain in him, he will remain in us.


    WOW! Eric, that was awesome.

    Our hope isn't only in eternal life, but having life abundantly here on earth--through obeying Him!

    Michelle
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>WOW! Eric, that was awesome.

    I'll second that. Except he forgot to mention the work of the Holy Spirit in our Lives.
     
  14. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    Look at it this way Lamb. If you "divorce" God, you are saying "NO Lord, I don't want eternal salvation" You are throwing away your salvation. No that doesn't mean you were NEVER saved, that means you denied God to his face. To me I cannot see someone experience the work of the Holy Spirit, and then saying...Sorry Lord ...your just not good enough for me, and then say ...well Ill try wicca now...maybe that will give me eteral life. You have to accept the whole package. Take a look at yourself and everything you have experienced as a believer...could you...would you throw it away??? If you turned to Satan...are you still saved? I guess it depends on what the outcome of the person's life is. I would think that God would be poppen the person on the butt until they turned around. Another way to look at eternal salvation is this....I have 3 kids....my 3 kids love me and I love them unconditionally. No matter what my kids do in their life, I will still love them and they will always be my kids.
    He is YOUR Father once you become his child by accpeting HIM in your heart. You will ALWAYS be HIS child. No matter what.
    GEL
    PS....I truley have a hard time believeing that someone who has experience the holy spirit could actually turn out to be a axe murder or somthing....its just not possible.
     
  15. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Visualize a large circle with a smaller inner circle.

    In the days of the circumcision the large outer circle was the circumcised of the flesh, The smaller inner circle the circumcised of the heart.

    Today we have the same 2 circles. Larger one is baptized of water, inner is baptized of water and spirit.

    Same deal, same God, same ways.

    It breaks my heart when people of the church want to keep the larger outer circle as full as possible.

    "Many will call me Lord"

    Jesus said "I came to tell the truth" and the circumcised killed Him.

    I can take it Guys.

    Blessings
     
  16. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

    This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

    The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.

    - copied from http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html under Calvinism/Soteriology, bolding mine
     
  17. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian


    Sometimes believers are tempted to throw in the towel and walk away. I have known several who have. Being a Christian is not an easy life, if you are really living for the Lord, and many quit and others take a hiatus, going through a period where they just can't function as Christ's followers because of exhaustion, frustration, depression, etc. Even people who know how good it is to serve God will sometimes find a sin that they love more than Him. I know a man who took 35 years off because of a major disappointment. I don't believe that he lost his salvation, he just couldn't accept God's will for his life for a while.

    But I do know a couple other people who knew the goodness of the Lord, and made conscious decisions to go back to their old lives, or to deliberately get into evilness, because the call of that was stronger than their love of the Lord. I just don't know what to think about what is happening to their souls, and I am grateful that I don't have to be God, seeing them and mourning the loss of their love. Are they still saved? I don't know, and it's not for me to determine.

    But there are people who do fall away.

    I don't know the answer to that. I believe that if you fall away, that God never stops calling you back, that He will never stop listening for your footsteps down His path, that He never stops straining His ear to hear you call for Him again. But I don't know what happens to someone who never returns to Him. Since WE are the ones that decide whether to be with Him in eternity (by accepting Christ) or to be eternally separated from Him by rejecting Christ, I don't know what He does with those who once knew Him but then walked away. Does He take them into heaven against their will, or does He respect their rejection and let them go to hell?

    I don't know.


    I just really don't know the answer to that.
     
  18. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Satan's last and losing attempt to foil the event of all events was in the desert, before Jesus started His ministry among the circumcised.

    Satan had one goal,,to keep Jesus from going to the cross.
    He failed.

    How do I know this? When Peter told Jesus that He would never let Him be crucified, Jesus said; "you sound just like Satan". Proof positive that Satan's tactic is to keep you from the cross. Don't complicate simple truth.

    Rejecting the work of the cross (I.e. believing that your sins are not forgiven, believing you can be called the "elect" and then by thrown away because of sin, believing that the sins of the world don't include yours, believing that you have to do something extra because your sin was missed by the cross and, continually asking God to forgive what has been forgiven, or: believing that one sin is better than another or that a simple lie is not the same as murder), is actually and exactly what Satan wants from us. Without sin Satan has nothing, which is why there was a cross.

    Sin is sin. To believe that backsliding in adultery or worse is different than cheating on taxes or telling little lies, is self-righteous. We are all backsliders without the cross.

    Satan did not hold Jesus from the cross, but he is keeping many of the church from it.

    If I fall, I will be picked up, I am saved, I know it, and you can know it. Go to the cross, pick up your cross and leave every sin, past present and future, at the cross. It worked, Jesus did not fail.

    To say to God "I am not sure I am saved" = I don't know if I am one of the elect.
    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

    The "elect" will not fall away. Many will fall away. Does this mean that the "many" were not the elect to begin with.............Bingo.

    Mark 13:23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    Study! Don't be lead by church doctrine.

    1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin

    What is purified, if not our sin. Can it be that we are all backsliders, but by choosing to walk by faith and not by deeds, that we are purified, even in sin? The only darkness is to ignore the cross.

    If you choose to believe, and also to live in sin, you will live a miserable life but you are saved. The cross did that, it had too. If this wasn't true then by the grace of God alone I could live without sin. I will never believe that. I would also have to believe that sin has degrees in God's economy; lies = 1 point, murder = 10. How does that work? Did God save the one next to Him, or did I miss that?

    I pray that you grow in faith. By faith, and by the blood of Jesus, we are saved, forever.

    Last question on this issue: How can God use you if you spend your life trying to save yourself? Concern for your own salvation is a telling thing. Be sure!

    Its finished. Let God use you to minister to others, you are the elect.



    Blessings
     
  19. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    There is a difference between salvation and sanctification. God saves and regenerates us, then He sends the Holy Spirit to sanctify us.
    Paul is talking about personal testimony and sanctification. If he doesn't practice what he preaches, he will be discredited among the people and chastened by God.
     
  20. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Joe,


    <There is a difference between salvation and sanctification. God saves and regenerates us, then He sends the Holy Spirit to sanctify us.> I agree totally


    PHP 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    PHP 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16 as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

    Paul is using salvation here as a: here is how to use it instruction. This has nothing to do with a process of salvation.

    It will improve your life.

    Blessings
     
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