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Do you KNOW that your saved?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by JohnR7, Apr 27, 2002.

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  1. PaxTecum

    PaxTecum New Member

    36
    +0
    My point is: Faith doesn't save you. Neither does works. We are saved by God's grace alone; it simply cannot be earned.

    However, thisdoes not mean that God requires nothing out of us. He requires faith, and he requires that we live that faith by doing good works.

    The classical Protestant formula for salvation is: "We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone.";

    The orthodox Catholic position is: "We are saved by grace alone, through faith which works by love."

    I don't believe that works are mere "evidence" of our past justification; something that happens "automatically". They are an active cooperation of man with God in the entire justification/salvation process. If good works just came automatically, then Christ and the Apostles wouldn't bother telling Christians to do good works in the first place; it would just happen automatically.

    In Christ,

    :priest:Eric:priest:
     
  2. PaxTecum

    PaxTecum New Member

    36
    +0
    Defender and Love:

    Your beliefs may sound pretty on paper, but they exist only under false premises, and simply are not Biblical.

    You forget that we are made in God's image. As such, we have free will, a will that God honors and respects.

    You are right that the Good Shephard never ceases to look for His sheep. But your interpretation of these "I will never abandon you" passages simply will not stand under scrutiny.

    These simply illustrate the fact that all sis are forgivable, and that sinners are constantly being nudged and urged by God's grace to turn back to Him. However, salvation is not a God-Only effort. It requires man's free cooperation. (The Eastern Fathers of the Church call this synergy.)

    Your "once-saved-always-saved" interpretations of a couple of passages of Scripture don't stand when taken in context with the entire Scriptural teaching, and openly contadicts the words of Our Lord and Saint Paul in passages such as John 15:6.
     
  3. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Defender, as I said I see your point. But I don't agree. Let's just agree to disagree. I don't believe in the "Once saved, always saved" theory. And since you don't know why I picked my nickname, my suggestion is that you don't assume.
    Always in Christian love,
    Missy
     
  4. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Thank you for this post. I agree and you said it very well.

    Bless you.
     
  5. PaxTecum

    PaxTecum New Member

    36
    +0
    Can I guess? :D

    The butterfly, if I am not mistaken, is often seen as a living image of the resurrected Christ.

    A catipillar appears to die, as he lies dormant in his cacoon, apparently overcome by the forces of nature. After a relatively short time, however, he arises triumphant, in a body more glorious and awe-inspiring than the one that preceeded it.

    It is one of nature's (really, God's) great paradoxes. "It is in dying that we are born into eternal life." (As Saint Francis of Asissi is so fond of telling us.)

    Or . . . this all may be just some wishful thinking on my part, LOL

    In Christ,

    :priest:Eric:priest:
     
  6. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    LOL Pax, close enough.
     
  7. peirced2door

    peirced2door New Member

    28
    +0
    I know I am saved based on I Jn. 5:13
     
  8. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    At the time you recieve the HOLY SPIRIT, God is within YOU. God is in your heart. Throughout life...God makes his way outside of the heart and into your life affecting everything around you. It is only up to us to give up our human nature sinful ways and allow God to come out of our hearts and into our lives to give unvain works.
    Thans how I see it
    GEL
     
  9. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
    +0
    The Question is what is faith actually? Answer in the epistles

    How do we know Jesus exist?
    Faith

    How do we know GOd exist?
    Faith

    HOw do we know we are going to be saved?
    Faith

    The faith that we are professing here is more than just merely thinking about it, but need to have act upon it.
    How do you said that you wanted Jesus to be in your live...

    You show it out through baptism and going to Church every Sunday....

    Jesus example: If you have faith like a mustard seed, you can tell the mountain to be uprooted and go the sea, it will be done.

    Faith is accompany with action

    jp-need more faith in life
     
  10. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    We are NOT made, created in Gods image!
    Genesis 5

    1. This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man(ADAM), in the likeness of God made he him;
    2. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    3. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

    We are NOT in the image of God until we are born again spiritually. Everyone here is born in ADAM's image...if we were born in the image of God, which Adam was before he spirtually died, we would have no need for salvation.

    I just wanted to clear up that misconception. There are also many many verses in the bible that states that NOT all people children of God and the above verses are why.

    Being that we are in the image of God and Christ is within us...as believers, our works depend on how much we let Christ out of our hearts and into our lives.
    GEL
     
  11. PaxTecum

    PaxTecum New Member

    36
    +0
    Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

    One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, "By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10), "If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

    Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, "It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

    There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

    Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

    The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

    For example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

    In Christ,

    :priest:Eric:priest:
     
  12. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    I think that we would just have to agree to disagree here eric.
    There are plenty of verses in scripture that have been provide on this thread and others that explains why I an other christians are fully convinced in our own mind that salvation is NOT a process, it is an event, just like baptism.
    GEL
     
  13. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Let me tell you a story about "losing salvation."

    In my ministry, I work with a lot of people that you would consider "down and out." Some of them are people of faith. Some of them are atheists. Some are people who never heard the truth of the gospel of Christ.

    The saddest ones of all are the ones who were once active Christians who sinned and became convinced that they had lost their salvation and could not be brought back to grace. They are people who not only know the pain of sinning, but know the pain of being unworthy to receive God's love.

    Now you might think that is a great place to be, because it's when you recognize that you are unworthy, you are closest to God's heart.

    But these people are unable to take the next step, to take it all to God and receive cleansing and peace, because they have been taught that if you sin after you are saved, you are lost and can't be redeemed again.

    They are hopeless people, made hopeless by this evil teaching that God will not forgive them a second or third or fourth time; that they CAN lose their salvation by not being able to kick sin in the butt.
     
  14. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

    +3,028
    Catholic
    Private
    Let me tell you a story about "losing salvation."

    In my ministry, I work with a lot of people that you would consider "down and out." Some of them are people of faith. Some of them are atheists. Some are people who never heard the truth of the gospel of Christ.

    The saddest ones of all are the ones who were once active Christians who sinned and became convinced that they had lost their salvation and could not be brought back to grace. They are people who not only know the pain of sinning, but know the pain of being unworthy to receive God's love.

    Now you might think that is a great place to be, because it's when you recognize that you are unworthy, you are closest to God's heart.

    But these people are unable to take the next step, to take it all to God and receive cleansing and peace, because they have been taught that if you sin after you are saved, you are lost and can't be redeemed again.

    They are hopeless people, made hopeless by this evil teaching that God will not forgive them a second or third or fourth time; that they CAN lose their salvation by not being able to kick sin in the butt.


    I know what you mean lambslove. I feel for people who think that God can never forgive them, and although I believe a person can lose their salvation...It's heartbreaking to know that some people can't receive God's grace and forgiveness.

    That's why it's so important for us to extend that grace to one another. God bless your ministry.

    Michelle
     
  15. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Lambslove:

    In the parable about the Prodigal Son, the kid comes home and Dad make him welcome. A lot of people can identify with that, especially if there is a wayward teen in the home.

    But you wonder, what would happen if the kid got restless again, and decided that maybe life on the road wasn't so bad after all? Millions of families go through that heartbreak again and again, so often there seems to be a revolving door above the Welcome Mat. For some of those families, their emotional survival depends on telling the Prodigal, "Enough is enough. You walk out that door ONE MORE TIME, and that's IT."

    Perhaps that is why you are seeing people who don't believe they can reconcile with God, they might feel God is frustrated and angry with their behavior.

    My personal feelings are that God will ALWAYS welcome home the Prodigal Son. Whereas a human parent will run out of patience, out of money, out of excuses, out of compassion, God's Resources are limitless.

    Thank God.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  16. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    Reformed thought is the original source and has the most solid defense of eternal assurance(perseverance of the saints) for Christians. You may say things like, "ah, that's 'hyperCalvinism', I don't want any of that garbage". But before you dismiss it, at least think it over, and on top of that, consider that eternal assurance ORIGINATED from Reformed thought! Perseverance and the other four points of Calvinism are CODEPENDENT. As a side comment, perseverance is not a license for sin, but rather an indicator by which we may be assured of salvation.

    "Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect."

    - copied from http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html under Calvinism/Soteriology
     
  17. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Michelle,

    What do you do with scriptures like the shepherd who leaves the 99 obedient sheep to go find the one stray sheep?

    How do you understand that in light of your belief that you can lose your salvation?
     
  18. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    I couldn't agree with you more VOW (Yeah!!!).

    God is not human, that He would grow tired of us returning to Him for forgiveness. If He told us to forgive 7 times 70 times, wasn't He saying that He would forgive us at least that many times?

    I don't believe that you can "lose" your salvation. But I do believe that you can throw it away!

    But that would require openly rejecting Christ, refusing to submit to Him, refusing to go to Him for forgiveness, renouncing Him. It is an act of rebellion and rejection. It is an active action, not something accidental or produced by human weaknesses.
     
  19. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Okay question for everyone: Do you think straying away from God after you have accepted Christ as your personal savior and been baptised is loosing your salvation ? If not, what would you consider that ?

    Note: I am not trying to prove anyone wrong. I am asking a serious question because I would like to know what all my fellow christians think .

    always in christian love,
    Missy
     
  20. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian


    It depends...

    What do you mean by "straying away"?

    What is the difference in your mind between "straying away," openly rebelling against God, and ordinary day-to-day sins?

    I think a person has to openly rebel against God, like renouncing your salvation, or knowing that something is truly evil, but doing it anyway.

    Let me give you this example:

    I know a guy who was once a faithful Christian. Then he met this married woman who seduced him into living with her in an apartment she kept for him (she was still living with her husband, too). He knew it was wrong to do that, but he liked sex with her so much that he didn't care.

    Then one day, she got the idea that since her husband couldn't have anymore children, that this guy (let's call him Ralph), that HE should father a child for her. Ralph knew that this was evil, way beyond the evil that he had already committed. He knew this was open rebellion against God's commandments. He believed at that point that if he went ahead with her plan, if he didn't walk away from her and repent his sin right then, that he would never be able to go back to God. He knew that he was siding up with satan, and throwing over God in order to please his mistress.

    He did it anyway. And his life has been a living hell ever since.

    Now he doesn't even have the desire to be with God, and he is driven to drive other people away from God, too. He harasses, maligns, hurts and deceives Christians as much as he can, because he has become so evil. Yet his heart knows what it is missing; he just has come to believe that God is evil and evil is good.

    He's really the saddest person I have ever met. I wouldn't be surprised if that man has lost his salvation. He openly renounced God and sided up with satan.

    He didn't lose his salvation, but he did throw it away.
     
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