Do you have any regard or belief in Messianic prophesy?

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks PV. While I understand your point sir, my opinion would be that on average more prophecies are clear than not. However, in making that assessment, I believe we are both being somewhat subjective. But to my point the thread was more specifically and generally speaking to Messianic prophesy and not the entire bandwidth of Biblical prophesy. For example, I don't believe you need to be a Hebrew literary scholar to see that Psalm 22 matches up fairly well with the crucifixion of Jesus. It may be that if you happen to be a Hebrew scholar you may have an added perspective but it may also be that if you are a medical doctor your education and training may also provide you with a deeper perspective.

Sure. I understand that, brother Pat. You and I can look at Jesus' words about His "being forsaken" while hanging painfully on the cross as a Jewish allusion which expresses things in a two fold way: that Jesus actually did feel forsaken at that moment, but also veiled in the allusion He made was His knowledge (as God's Son full of the Spirit) of God's overarching plan, and we can see these dual expressions embedded in the context of the whole of Psalm 22.

However, not everyone, not even every Christian knows this. In fact, there were a number of years at the beginning of my Christian walk, now a few decades ago, when I had no idea that Jesus may very well have been referring to Psalm 22. Of course, later when I learned that, it brought out contexts that I wouldn't have considered on my own. [Thank the Lord for many of the fine Christian brothers and sisters we have who teach the Bible and from whom we can all learn ...]

While God may not have given us a guarantee I believe He intended to increase our faith by prophecy, so some will provide us with a perspicuous picture for our edification. I would not consider Daniel nor Revelation to fall into that category. Instead I believe those force us to search the Scriptures deeply, an exercise He desires of us to edify our walk with Him. I would agree that reading ancient texts in the contemporary language of the day provides insight, as well as understanding the historical context but more importantly is allowing the wealth of supporting Scripture to better define our understanding of hard passages, not only prophecies.
Peace to you as well sir!

I generally agree with you on this, Pat, although I do think that both Daniel and Revelation--the whole of our Scriptures in fact--have been also given to increase our faith. But that is a minor issue, and not one that I think makes any difference either way between us. The point is, I agree with you that prophecy is supposed to play a role in the development of each person's faith, even if the relevance of prophecy may be difficult (but not impossible) for people to see clearly or to grasp immediately. So, on this, I think we're both good.

Thanks for your comments here in this OP you've created.

 

[John 1720]

On another thread I stated that:
I believe Isaiah 53 , which was written 700 years before Christ, alludes to Jesus in Messianic prophesy. I also said I "personally" know an abundance of Jewish people who have studied Is 53 in depth that also believe it alludes to Christ. Most became Messianic Christians in response although some were not willing to suffer the rejection that comes with that decision. There is more than just Isaiah 53 though and many Messianic Jews show a wealth of Scripture that points to Jesus. How about Psalm 22 for instance?
The Suffering, Praise, and Posterity of the Messiah
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
Ps 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

• Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
• Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.

• Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Ps 22:7-8 All those who see Me ridicule Me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

• Mat 27:29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”
• Mat 27:39 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads
• Mar 15:20 And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.
• Mar 15:29 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who destroy the temple and build it in three days,
• Luk 23:11 Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate.
• Luk 23:35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”
• Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine,
• Luk 23:37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”
• Luk 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

Ps 22:14-15 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death.

:

• Jhn 19:28-29 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.
• A (more accurate) Medical Account of the Crucifixion - Douglas Jacoby

Psalms 22:16-19 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

Mat 27:35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: “They divided My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.”
Mar 15:24 And when they crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots for them to determine what every man should take.
Luk 23:33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left.
Jhn 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.
Jhn 19:37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”
Jhn 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
Jhn 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

So it would appear that much of Psalm 22, as well as other prophesies, provides us with a clear picture of our crucified Lord, the Jewish Yeshua.
In Christ, Patrick

 

[LoAmmi]

On another thread I stated that:
I believe Isaiah 53 , which was written 700 years before Christ, alludes to Jesus in Messianic prophesy. I also said I "personally" know an abundance of Jewish people who have studied Is 53 in depth that also believe it alludes to Christ. Most became Messianic Christians in response although some were not willing to suffer the rejection that comes with that decision. There is more than just Isaiah 53 though and many Messianic Jews show a wealth of Scripture that points to Jesus. How about Psalm 22 for instance?
The Suffering, Praise, and Posterity of the Messiah
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
Ps 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.

Ps 22:7-8 All those who see Me ridicule Me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

Ps 22:14-15 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death.

Psalms 22:16-19 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

So it would appear that much of Psalm 22, as well as other prophesies, provides us with a clear picture of our crucified Lord, the Jewish Yeshua.
In Christ, Patrick

A question I've always had on the Jesus story and people connecting it to Psalm 22.

I've been told he was beat horribly, a bloody mess. Why would the Romans cast lots for the clothes of a prisoner that was bloody? I can't image these were the finest of clothes to begin with. Surely the clothes were ruined. Did Romans have some kind of fetish for clothes stained with Jewish blood that I'm not aware of?

 

[John 1720]

A question I've always had on the Jesus story and people connecting it to Psalm 22.

I've been told he was beat horribly, a bloody mess. Why would the Romans cast lots for the clothes of a prisoner that was bloody? I can't image these were the finest of clothes to begin with. Surely the clothes were ruined. Did Romans have some kind of fetish for clothes stained with Jewish blood that I'm not aware of?

Hi LoAmmi,
Yes, but there is really nothing in any of the Gospel accounts that state that Yeshua was wearing garments. Just like modern day prisoners are stripped of their clothing before entering custody it follows that Roman custodian of articles within the prisoner's possession are taken before exacting a flogging or beating. I think Yeshua went to the cross quite naked or at best with a loincloth only.
The Gospels of John, which has the most to say, states they didn't want to tear the garments. This implies the garment would have been removed before the terrible flogging they administered; for the whipping surely would have cut the clothing to ribbons.

• Jhn 19:22 Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written." Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece. They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:

"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."
Therefore the soldiers did these things.

 

[LoAmmi]

Hi LoAmmi,
Yes, but there is really nothing in any of the Gospel accounts that state that Yeshua was wearing garments. Just like modern day prisoners are stripped of their clothing before entering custody it follows that Roman custodian of articles within the prisoner's possession are taken before exacting a flogging or beating. I think Yeshua went to the cross quite naked or at best with a loincloth only.
The Gospels of John, which has the most to say, states they didn't want to tear the garments. This implies the garment would have been removed before the terrible flogging they administered; for the whipping surely would have cut the clothing to ribbons.

• Jhn 19:22 Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written." Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece. They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:

"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."
Therefore the soldiers did these things.

Interesting. Thanks for the answer.

 

[peepnklown]

Interesting. Thanks for the answer.

Shall I join, old friend?

 

[LoAmmi]

Shall I join, old friend?

Feel free.

 

[peepnklown]

Feel free.

Pick a verse any verse!

 

[Erik Nelson]

Evidential Apologetics: Three Kinds of Messianic Prophecy