Do you feel Latino Catholicism is distinct from other forms of Catholicism?

[Gxg (G²)]

Blessings

I was doing research recently on the issue of Roman Catholicism - and it was fascinating to see the history of the movement within the world of Latino culture. With regards to Roman Catholics in the lay movement and addressing what has occurred historically with priests choosing to not go with all things the Pope has done if it may not be right, especially within the Latin American experience (like priests who led revolts when slavery/oppression was allowed) it has been interesting to see how things have developed.. The leader of the Mexican Revolution comes to mind, as Fr. Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla

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There were other priests who rebelled actively against the crown, such as Jose Gabriel Tupac. Gonzalez noted how Jose believed himself to be a descendant of the royal Incans and was able to lead the Indians of Upper Peru in a rebellion while claiming to be the true representatives of Catholicism. They did not see the church as administered by the Spanish crown to be anything but a representation of power used to oppress the marginalized. There were repeated admonitions from the Bishop of Cuzco toward his priests to tell the Indians about the benefits that came from resisting riots. However, while those of Spanish descent and colonials chose to resist rebellion, others living in large towns priests who lived in rural areas chose to support the rebellion while those who were in the upper classes of Spanish society chose to resist and even arm themselves against rebels. Although the Tupac Amaru rebellion did not succeed as well as had hoped after it ended in three years, other rebellions arose decades later the sustained oppression. The most memorable rebellion was done under Fr. Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, identifying with the Virgin of Guadalupe, as Mexico sought independence and demonstrated that there was always a willingness among the Christian grassroots community in marginalized camps to resist others claiming Christ if they supported the hierarchy that represented the upper-class power structures in Church of Rome (more shared here ).

Seeing the history of revolts in Latino Catholicism, it has been interesting to see the reasons behind why things have been so complicated. What follows is an excellent presentation on the issue of Catholic Hispanics and theology for Hispanics that I thought I would share here since it seemed to bring the issue ​

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Father Virgilio Elizondo (author of Mestizo) is someone heavily involved in the documentary - one I came across after recently finishing an amazing book with him giving an intro called "Manana: Christian Theology from a Hispanic Perspective" by Dr. Justo González,perhaps the most prominent Hispanic theologian of the 20th century - as he grew up in Cuba and is an exile, as he grew up Catholic and later became Methodist but also works with Catholics and sees himself more so as a "Protestant Catholic" Brilliant to see the way history has shaped for Hispanics and the dynamics behind how there has always been a distinct Catholicism for Hispanics...as he said "We are descendants of two great mystical traditions: the pre-Reformation evangelically renewed Iberian and the Native American. Both were quite different from Reformation and CounterReformation European Christianity"...and "Protestants have not yet discovered and reclaimed as their own the marvelous aspects of our Iberoamerican Catholic heritage that they left behind in becoming Protestants" (more at Justo González | Theological Graffiti - Digital Etchings ):

Everything - from the missions to the ways Hispanics interacted with the world - has been very different for Hispanic believers and it's something I have long been fascinated by. If anyone has any thoughts, would love to hear....

Do you feel that Latino Experiences make Catholicism have a much more distinct experience than others?



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[Sword of the Lord]

I find that oftentimes they incorporate their paganism with it, and think it's perfectly ok.

 

[Michie]

I have issues with St. Muerte as far as pagan aspects go but I am very attached to my local Latino Catholic community. I was surprised to see the term 'Protestant Catholic' as I have referred to myself as the same feeling torn between two worlds most of the time. I'd like a link to what the OP cut and pasted as I would be very interested in reading it myself and other points of interest the page may have.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have issues with St. Morte as far as pagan aspects go but I am very attached to my local Latino Catholic community. I was surprised to see the term 'Protestant Catholic' as I have referred to myself as the same feeling torn between two worlds most of the time.

A lot of people have had that experience with feeling torn between worlds.

I'd like a link to what the OP cut and pasted as I would be very interested in reading it myself and other points of interest the page may have.

Not certain where that came from as that was not cut/paste. It was typed, although the book itself referenced here called Manana has thoughts that things built on and there is a link included within the Book Image you can click on for more.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I'm not sure how I would "feel" that it is distinct from "other forms of Catholicism" (whatever those might be) but I've noticed that a lot of Mexican Catholics with whom I am acquainted usually aren't the most discerning bunch. If something looks sufficiently Catholic to them, they tend to accept it. For example, I discovered that a few whom I know had been attending Mass at an SSPX parish near their apartment and I had to clear that up for them* so they could at least make an informed decision on the matter.

* Now, I've heard conflicting answers regarding the status of SSPX. Personally, I'm not taking any chances. I'll stick with parishes which I know to be in full communion. I can't in good conscience let a Catholic of good faith attend SSPX Masses without letting them know the score on that. After that's done, they can make up their own mind.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm not sure how I would "feel" that it is distinct from "other forms of Catholicism"
(whatever those might be)

Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholicism and the differing variations that occur within that world alone, Chaldean Catholic Church, etc...differing parts of Catholics expression.

I've noticed that a lot of Mexican Catholics with whom I am acquainted usually aren't the most discerning bunch. If something looks sufficiently Catholic to them, they tend to accept it. For example, I discovered that a few whom I know had been attending Mass at an SSPX parish near their apartment and I had to clear that up for them* so they could at least make an informed decision on the matter.

* Now, I've heard conflicting answers regarding the status of SSPX. Personally, I'm not taking any chances. I'll stick with parishes which I know to be in full communion. I can't in good conscience let a Catholic of good faith attend SSPX Masses without letting them know the score on that. After that's done, they can make up their own mind.

Understood.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Being a Californian I've known a lot of Mexican Catholics in my life. I don't know if there's anything "distinct" about Catholicism in Latin America, but I do think there may be a lack of knowledge/understanding of basic Catholic teaching. Having learned what I've learned even in just two months, I look back in hindsight and think that many of my Mexican Catholic friends didn't really have a grasp of what the Church actually believes, based on things they regularly said or did. They treated it much more like a superstition than a religion that worships the one true Triune God.

I had a guy just a few months ago in a bible study I was facilitating, he went to my old Presbyterian Church. When we were sharing our stories he said he was raised Catholic but that, and I quote, "It's hard to separate being Catholic from being Mexican, and I don't think you can find Jesus in the Catholic Church". I've had other friends and coworkers who expressed that same sentiment in one fashion or another over the past 10-15 years.

I think Catholicism in Latino culture may suffer from the same issues that it has in Irish and Italian culture too. People are brought up in that faith without ever being thoroughly educated in it. Although one thing Latino Catholicism has that Irish and Italian Catholicism doesn't (to my knowledge) are those cults and syncretic religions like Santa Muerte and Santería, respectively. I think it's sad that other beliefs and religions were able to creep into the Christian faith with those being the results.

 

[Michie]

The reason I thought it was cp is because the text looked different that what you wrote at the beginning of the post.

A lot of people have had that experience with feeling torn between worlds.
Not certain where that came from as that was not cut/paste. It was typed, although the book itself referenced here called Manana has thoughts that things built on and there is a link included within the Book Image you can click on for more.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholicism and the differing variations that occur within that world alone, Chaldean Catholic Church, etc...differing parts of Catholics expression.

And yet they're all still Catholic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And yet they're all still Catholic.

No one said they weren't still Catholic. It was an issue of differing experiences. Eastern Catholics have a different experience than Roman Catholics, Charismatic Catholics are a lot different than Non-Charismatic Catholics ((as shared here and here))...I hope this makes sense.

 

[thecolorsblend]

No one said they weren't still Catholic. It was an issue of differing experiences. Eastern Catholics have a different experience than Roman Catholics

Mmm, good point. I mean, there is a Roman Rite, after all. A Maronite Rite. A Byzantine Rite too. There are tons of other Rites.

I'm unfamiliar with a Latino Rite though and how that would be any different from any other Rite. Could you elaborate on that for me please?

 

[Michie]

There is no difference in the Latino Masses I have been to except the music and language. But it does have a different feel. Latino Masses are always packed to the rafters. It is usually standing room only. I see many walking backwards to their pew as to not turn their back on her altar. They wear their rosaries. There seems to be more Latinos that refrain from recieving as well. There is a heavy devotion to Mary and some will kneeling front of her statue during Mass. There are lots of flowers brought to her. It is a very lively Mass full of children and usually a big get together afterwards. But it is very reverent as well. I recommend that people always go to Mass with people of a different culture. I have gone to just about every Latino function as well. It forces you to see outside of the box of what you think Mass should be and shows you what Mass really is.

Mmm, good point. I mean, there is a Roman Rite, after all. A Maronite Rite. A Byzantine Rite too. There are tons of other Rites.

I'm unfamiliar with a Latino Rite though and how that would be any different from any other Rite. Could you elaborate on that for me please?

 

[sylverpiano]

My Parish is mostly Hispanic. Aside from the Masses in Spanish and the statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, It is just mainstream Catholicism.

 

[Michie]

I think people think their Mass is the correct Mass culturally. But I see the differences in
music and behavior in these Masses as beautiful really. Haitian Masses can be pretty rowdy. But God loves us all in our diversity of worship under the guidance of the Church. I personally find it interesting. I know as far as some Latinos trying to incorporate cult like practices like St. Muerte is absolutely frowned upon by the Church. Yet you can go to the Mexican grocery a couple of streets over and see statues of this made up gory saint everywhere. I do not think that those cultivate/pagan practices are practiced by the majority of practicing Latino catholics though. I think the fringe cultural catholics are the ones that do for the most part. And that is not just specific to Latinos. I have seen the same from Anglo catholics.

 

[Michie]

I think the practice of burying a St. Joseph statue upside down, etc. is a good example and I have met a good deal
of Catholics that dabble in new age and Buddhism as well. A lot of superstition imo. Then there are the flat out secular Catholics that just warm a pew and rally for abortion rights, etc. when they are out of it.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Mexicans and other kinds of Latinos have their own Catholic history and Catholic culture. It's good to celebrate that as long as it stays within the boundaries of our faith. And whether or not they are orthodox depends on the individual. My wife is Mexican and is an orthodox Catholic while being very much influenced by her traditional upbringing. I think it's a perfect combination. She's from Jalpa, Zacatecas which is an area of Mexico with a strongly Catholic history.

Here are some videos about Jalpa, Zacatecas:

 

[Fantine]

What I find most interesting is the strong, cohesive, supportive community they have, and it results in young people being more likely to continue practicing their faith as adults. The campus ministry in our local college is probably about 80% Hispanic, certainly not reflective of the Catholic student body as a whole.

But when my mother talks about the Irish Catholic community in Brooklyn, and how the church was across the street and how, on New Year's Eve, everyone would stop their parties at 11 p.m. and head to church to pray, it seems as if all immigrant groups share that characteristic.

It also seems to fade as the immigrant group assimilates into the larger community.

Mexican-Americans are devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Central Americans are devoted to the Black Christ. I was at the shrine to the Black Christ on my mission trip, and lots of the missioners were amazed at how people who could barely walk would travel for miles, often on foot. How they would go up to the altar on their knees. How they would walk backwards on their knees back to the vestibule so as not to turn their backs on Jesus. My friend who coordinates our mission program says, "I hate that [bleep]." She's one of the holiest people I know--but to her, faith and holiness involves responding to the Great Commission--something she does better than almost anyone I've ever met. I can understand her impatience, and I pretty much agree with her.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Mexicans and other kinds of Latinos have their own Catholic history and Catholic culture. It's good to celebrate that as long as it stays within the boundaries of our faith. And whether or not they are orthodox depends on the individual. My wife is Mexican and is an orthodox Catholic while being very much influenced by her traditional upbringing. I think it's a perfect combination. She's from Jalpa, Zacatecas which is an area of Mexico with a strongly Catholic history.

Here are some videos about Jalpa, Zacatecas:

Fascinating information.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Just an aside. I Was reading and watching a few videos last night on the various Mexican Cartels. The whole capture of El Chapo got me interested.

There is one Cartel the "knights Templar" who claim to be very devout Catholics. When the Pope visited they had a truce with the other various Cartels. Then when the Pope departed, it was back to killing as usual.

Not sure how they rationalize devout Catholicism with torture, murder and other Narco activities. But I found it interesting.

Some of the other Cartels also build shrines that are infused with Catholic icons and statues of the Virgin Mary..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Just an aside. I Was reading and watching a few videos last night on the various Mexican Cartels. The whole capture of El Chapo got me interested.

There is one Cartel the "knights Templar" who claim to be very devout Catholics. When the Pope visited they had a truce with the other various Cartels. Then when the Pope departed, it was back to killing as usual.

Not sure how they rationalize devout Catholicism with torture, murder and other Narco activities. But I found it interesting.

Some of the other Cartels also build shrines that are infused with Catholic icons and statues of the Virgin Mary..

There was an interesting read that I saw on the matter of cartels and their work in the Catholic Churches in Latin America.

• Mexico's crisis of faith | The Christian Century

As said there (for brief reference):

Whether or not we can realistically talk of state collapse, the Mexican situation is serious. Drug-related violence has claimed some 30,000 lives since 2006, and large areas of the country are under the effective control of one or more of the notorious cartels, gangs and militias. Few weeks go by without the media reporting some massacre of innocents, and police and government officials are regularly targeted.

Lost in most discussions of the crisis is the role of the churches. This in practice means above all the Roman Catholic Church, which theoretically claims the loyalty of at least 80 percent of the population. (Around 6 percent of Mexicans are Protestant.) Although Mexico maintains a strict separation of church and state, nobody denies the enormous role of Catholicism in Mexican society and culture.

How have Christians coped with the horror of living through a virtual civil war? In many instances, clergy and believers have lived up to their ideals. They have behaved heroically, striving to make peace between factions, trying to fulfill social needs in regions where secular government has all but abdicated its power. Individual priests and bishops comfort bereaved families and preach bravely against violence and criminality, at grave risk to their lives. Fearless activism for peace and human rights made Saltillo's legendary bishop José Raúl Vera López a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Some senior clergy propose long-term solutions for the crisis. Although he is a staunch social and theological conservative, the head of the Mexican church, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera, has opened the door to reforming Mexico's drug laws, suggesting that the issue must be re-framed as a public health problem rather than a matter for the criminal law.

But for all the zeal of such leaders, the drug crisis has exposed some alarming weaknesses in the church, as a traditionally poor society has faced the overwhelming temptations of drug money. One emerging crisis in the church concerns the poor parishes that receive offers of vast gifts from local magnates known to be narcotrafficantes. Although Cardinal Rivera Carrera declares that the church should never accept such dirty money, it is no secret that many priests have used drug money to rebuild churches and launch social welfare projects. This concession obviously compromises their ability to speak out against crime, mayhem and terrorism.
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Thoughts?