Do you believe this?

[Saint Steven]

I wish I could truly articulate it. Now, as through a glass, darkly.

Editing is key.

A famous author once said something like, If I had more time, I would have written a shorter book. ... (quick search says, Mark Twain... shorter letter) Anyway... the principle is memorable.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Editing is key.

A famous author once said something like, If I had more time, I would have written a shorter book. ... (quick search says, Mark Twain... shorter letter) Anyway... the principle is memorable.

True, I spend most of my professional time refining refining refining my written work. Be nice if clients did the same lol.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That's interesting. Yes, why are there firstfruits? What is their divine pupose in the redemption of humankind? Reminds me of this scripture, which is a good one to consider along side the topic verse. "...all will be made alive. But each in turn..." (some now, some later)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Going by universal reconciliation basically we are the first string and the rest to be saved are the second string. I'm not sure about that though. I'm recalling stuff I came across over ten years ago.

 

[Lazarus Short]

One verse can, and sometimes does, overturn hoary theo-illogical ideas. How many times must the Bible state that Jesus the Christ is the Savior of ALL, before that fact sinks in?

 

[Der Alte]

One verse can, and sometimes does, overturn hoary theo-illogical ideas. How many times must the Bible state that Jesus the Christ is the Savior of ALL, before that fact sinks in?

When Jesus says never does He mean "never" or sometime? See Matt 7:23, below.
Jesus taught,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [aionios] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal [ainios] punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [a fate worse than death]
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

[fn]●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[Ceallaigh]

One verse can, and sometimes does, overturn hoary theo-illogical ideas. How many times must the Bible state that Jesus the Christ is the Savior of ALL, before that fact sinks in?

The ALL part only applies to Adam. With Jesus (the second Adam) it's only a FEW. Wait...

 

[Ceallaigh]

When Jesus says never does He mean "never" or sometime? See Matt 7:23, below.
Jesus taught,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [aionios] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal [ainios] punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [a fate worse than death]
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

[fn]●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

That's really complicated, so it must be correct.
Reminds me of Gene Scott's whiteboard.

 

[Der Alte]

That's really complicated, so it must be correct.

When a police officer is no longer inside. cop-out
Ten verses, each followed by a few lines of comment and quotes from 3 Greek grammars. How complicated can that be?
I don't wear a cowboy hat, sunglasses and smoke a cigar when I teach.

 

[Ceallaigh]

When a police officer is no longer inside. cop-out
Ten verses, each followed by a few lines of comment and quotes from 3 Greek grammars. How complicated can that be?

Pass off complicated as simple to further bamboozle. Smoke and mirrors I say. Now tell me something like "sorry you're so dumb".

I don't wear a cowboy hat, sunglasses and smoke a cigar when I teach.

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.



Yes. This is not about universalism.

Who is the Saviour of all men - This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - "especially of those that believe." There is something pertaining to "them" in regard to salvation which does not pertain to "all men." It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, "especially" those who believe - for this would be nonsense. And if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be "especially" true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others "without" believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see Mark 16:16. When, therefore, it is said that he "is the Saviour of 'all' people, 'especially' of those who believe," it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is "actually" true that those only are saved who believe. This may be true in two respects:

(1) As he is the "Preserver" of people Job 7:20, for in this sense he may be said to "save" them from famine, and war, and peril - keeping them from day to day; compare Psalm 107:28;

(2) as he has "provided" salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.

Specially of those that believe - This is evidently designed to limit the previous remark. If it had been left there, it might have been inferred that he would "actually save" all people. But the apostle held no such doctrine, and he here teaches that salvation is "actually" limited to those who believe. This is the speciality or the uniqueness in the salvation of those who actually reach heaven, that they are "believers;" see the notes on Mark 16:16. All people, therefore, do not enter heaven, unless all people have faith. But is this so? What evidence is there that the great mass of mankind die believing on the Son of God? Barnes

hope this helps !!!

 

[AubreyM]

-That is a good commentary note, @Jesus is YHWH

for a moment thought was reading your own words and thoughts, where they?

Maybe so, just seen the Barnes and was like dang got this off a commentary, though could be wrong let me know. I agree with what he is saying.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

-That is a good commentary note, @Jesus is YHWH

for a moment thought was reading your own words and thoughts, where they?

Maybe so, just seen the Barnes and was like dang got this off a commentary, though could be wrong let me know. I agree with what he is saying.

Its from Albert Barnes a theologian. He said it better than I ever could

 

[Saint Steven]

-That is a good commentary note, @Jesus is YHWH

for a moment thought was reading your own words and thoughts, where they?

Maybe so, just seen the Barnes and was like dang got this off a commentary, though could be wrong let me know. I agree with what he is saying.

This scripoture from your OP is not the only scripture that makes this declaration about God/Jesus being the savior of all people. It's not an isolated verse that is being "twisted" to mean something it doesn't. Here are 8 more below. See the bold text in each. cc: @Jesus is YHWH

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Albion]

One verse can, and sometimes does, overturn hoary theo-illogical ideas. How many times must the Bible state that Jesus the Christ is the Savior of ALL, before that fact sinks in?

If there is any savior at all, it's Jesus. That doesn't mean that every last person will be saved just because he's the 'one and only' who could make it possible for any of them.

 

[Der Alte]

Pass off complicated as simple to further bamboozle. Smoke and mirrors I say. Now tell me something like "sorry you're so dumb".

You said it dude. I have taught for more than 50 years nobody has ever accused me of being too complicated to understand.
I wonder if the three quotes from Greek grammars was too difficult for you.

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

I'm from the sooner state wore a cowboy hat most of my life. I have bunions from the pointy boots and I wear sun glasses more so since my cataract surgery. But I don't wear a hat or sunglasses when teaching. Never could develop a taste for cigars.

 

[Saint Steven]

This scripoture from your OP is not the only scripture that makes this declaration about God/Jesus being the savior of all people. It's not an isolated verse that is being "twisted" to mean something it doesn't. Here are 8 more below. See the bold text in each. cc: @Jesus is YHWH

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

All means all. Here is an explanation of one of the verses above by @public hermit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

If there is any savior at all, it's Jesus. That doesn't mean that every last person will be saved just because he's the 'one and only' who could make it possible for any of them.

It's already a done deal.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[AubreyM]

-shrugs-

Hope you all are having a good day.

 

[Saint Steven]

@AubreyM
Sometimes I get the argument that UR doesn't align with the context of the whole Bible.

Well, I guess that depends on what you view as the context of the whole Bible.
1) Is the Bible the story of God's plan for the redemption of humankind?
2) Or is it the story of a plan by a cosmic tyrant to bring planetary genocide?
A diabolical plan to inflict eternal conscious torment on countless billions while hand selecting a few to do who-knows-what with? Can you really trust someone who would do such things to everyone else? Will heaven be a happy place, knowing that countless billions are downstairs in the dungeon being incinerated while unable to die? Some of them possibly your own loved ones. And what might become of you if you get out of line? (seems obvious)

Maybe we should go with #1 above.

 

[Albion]

It's already a done deal.

I know that people think that way because it is comforting. But how everything in the Bible that talks of people being eternally lost, being damned, being rejected, and so on--and it's much more evident than the verses which can be twisted in order to justify a Universalist belief--can simply be ignored is always a surprise to me.

Romans 5:19
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So why doesn't this say that ALL will be made righteous, not just "the many?"

Rather than prove Universalism, this proves the opposite, that not all will in fact be saved.