Do You Believe That God Works Through You?

[~Anastasia~]

Your response begs the question, is God working outside of you only, or does He work inside of you also?
TD

God works (or I'd rather say that He is active) in all situations, places, etc.

Whether or not He "works in us" (if I understand what you mean by that) depends on whether or not we choose to cooperate with His constant activity.

But I don't really understand a distinction of God working inside vs outside of persons. He is active within His creation, period.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your question.

 

[tdidymas]

It is still not a transfer of power from one to another. The touch is an act of faith that releases the gift from the Holy Spirit that is already in the person.

The Holy Spirit is not some kind of electrical energy that flows from one person to another. He is a Person. In fact He is God, and being God, He works on the basis of faith.

What do you mean "already in the person"? In Acts, the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostles' hands. The receivers did not already have the Spirit in them before that, did they?

By your response here, it appears to me that your idea is completely contrary to all the Pentecostal and Charismatic practices I have seen everywhere. Are you trying to tell me that the vast majority of those denominations are into witchcraft?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

God works (or I'd rather say that He is active) in all situations, places, etc.

Whether or not He "works in us" (if I understand what you mean by that) depends on whether or not we choose to cooperate with His constant activity.

But I don't really understand a distinction of God working inside vs outside of persons. He is active within His creation, period.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your question.

The question is about the works of love that you do - do you believe that those works of love you do is God working through you? Is God performing those works in you? And an equivalent question: does God perform the works of righteousness in you?
TD

 

[~Anastasia~]

The question is about the works of love that you do - do you believe that those works of love you do is God working through you? Is God performing those works in you? And an equivalent question: does God perform the works of righteousness in you?
TD

If we do any good thing or develop any virtue, we ought to give glory to God.

God is love, and man is created in God's image. Any good thing within a person should be credited to the working of God in that person. God always works to restore us to Christ-like-ness, if we cooperate with him.

If you are asking about activity, the grace of God is always working - toward love, toward righteousness, toward restoration - in people and through people. But we believe (that we agree with the early Christians) that a person can either cooperate with God, or we can refuse to cooperate with His activity.

I'm not sure if you're asking "what/how does God work" or if you're asking "who gets the credit?" I tried to answer the first question, though forgive me if I'm not clear. As to the second question, it doesn't occur to me to ask - but all good comes from God in some sense.


If you are by chance asking about me personally - well that's not something I find spiritually profitable to discuss - we can easily think too much of whatever good things we do, or if we try to avoid doing that, we can fall into false humility. Or any number of other pitfalls. We can discuss spiritual principles easily enough without needing to mention acts we may or may not do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What do you mean "already in the person"? In Acts, the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostles' hands. The receivers did not already have the Spirit in them before that, did they?

By your response here, it appears to me that your idea is completely contrary to all the Pentecostal and Charismatic practices I have seen everywhere. Are you trying to tell me that the vast majority of those denominations are into witchcraft?
TD

Many Pentecostal and Charismatic practices are little more than witchcraft if there is a belief that some sort of power or electricity flows from one person to another. This is not found in the New Testament at all. It is well-known and documented that in the last 30 years that has been a major invasion of the occult and pagan mind-control into the mainstream Charismatic movement. It is also well known that many Pentecostals put more faith in sensory experiences than in the written Scriptures, and that many doctrines and extra-Biblical 'revelations" have arisen that are just not consistent with Scripture. All this was the "lunatic fringe" when I first became a Christian in a Pentecostal church in the late 1960s. And I was fortunate to have been discipled by a sound Pentecostal pastor who believed that we should be people of prayer and of the Word, and he would have none of what goes on today in terms of wacky manifestations that are exactly the same as experienced in the occult, misuse of tongues and prophecy, false words of knowledge, positive confession based on Hindu mind control, and false promises of healing.

I have already stated that the act of laying on of hands is a demonstration of faith and not a transference of "power". The power comes directly from God Himself as the result of that faith. But you don't seem to want to believe that so, just carry on believing what you want, and I will let you alone without any further comment from me.

 

[tdidymas]

If we do any good thing or develop any virtue, we ought to give glory to God.

God is love, and man is created in God's image. Any good thing within a person should be credited to the working of God in that person. God always works to restore us to Christ-like-ness, if we cooperate with him.

If you are asking about activity, the grace of God is always working - toward love, toward righteousness, toward restoration - in people and through people. But we believe (that we agree with the early Christians) that a person can either cooperate with God, or we can refuse to cooperate with His activity.

I'm not sure if you're asking "what/how does God work" or if you're asking "who gets the credit?" I tried to answer the first question, though forgive me if I'm not clear. As to the second question, it doesn't occur to me to ask - but all good comes from God in some sense.


If you are by chance asking about me personally - well that's not something I find spiritually profitable to discuss - we can easily think too much of whatever good things we do, or if we try to avoid doing that, we can fall into false humility. Or any number of other pitfalls. We can discuss spiritual principles easily enough without needing to mention acts we may or may not do.

I'm not trying to focus on the acts, but several people replying in here seem to do so. I'm trying to focus on the belief, the motivation for the acts.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Many Pentecostal and Charismatic practices are little more than witchcraft if there is a belief that some sort of power or electricity flows from one person to another. This is not found in the New Testament at all. It is well-known and documented that in the last 30 years that has been a major invasion of the occult and pagan mind-control into the mainstream Charismatic movement. It is also well known that many Pentecostals put more faith in sensory experiences than in the written Scriptures, and that many doctrines and extra-Biblical 'revelations" have arisen that are just not consistent with Scripture. All this was the "lunatic fringe" when I first became a Christian in a Pentecostal church in the late 1960s. And I was fortunate to have been discipled by a sound Pentecostal pastor who believed that we should be people of prayer and of the Word, and he would have none of what goes on today in terms of wacky manifestations that are exactly the same as experienced in the occult, misuse of tongues and prophecy, false words of knowledge, positive confession based on Hindu mind control, and false promises of healing.

I have already stated that the act of laying on of hands is a demonstration of faith and not a transference of "power". The power comes directly from God Himself as the result of that faith. But you don't seem to want to believe that so, just carry on believing what you want, and I will let you alone without any further comment from me.

Why cut me off like this? Don't you want me to see what you believe, and to be clear about it? I'm just trying to understand you.

Yes, I know that feelings of power and belief in relics, and things that are considered holy are often thought of as exuding spiritual power. This belief has been in the churches for many centuries. I also tend to say such beliefs are superstitions, but there are a few scriptures that point to that in the NT, such as special miracles that God did through Paul, for example the cloths that touched him, and carried to the sick who were healed by the touch of the cloths. I do realize it was their faith in God, except it does appear that they believed the cloth had something to do with it. No?

I also remember an experience wherein I was in a group praying for someone's healing, and the person who was healed hugged people who prayed, and after hugging me said "you breathe fire into me." This was in contrast to the others, as she said she was hugging people to find out who the power was coming from. I do give the credit to God, as the experience was a complete surprise to me, and I certainly didn't expect that to happen. I was simply someone God was using at the time to accomplish His will. Do you think this experience was not of God?

I realize this subject might be off topic, so I'm open to PM.
TD

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why cut me off like this? Don't you want me to see what you believe, and to be clear about it? I'm just trying to understand you.

Yes, I know that feelings of power and belief in relics, and things that are considered holy are often thought of as exuding spiritual power. This belief has been in the churches for many centuries. I also tend to say such beliefs are superstitions, but there are a few scriptures that point to that in the NT, such as special miracles that God did through Paul, for example the cloths that touched him, and carried to the sick who were healed by the touch of the cloths. I do realize it was their faith in God, except it does appear that they believed the cloth had something to do with it. No?

I also remember an experience wherein I was in a group praying for someone's healing, and the person who was healed hugged people who prayed, and after hugging me said "you breathe fire into me." This was in contrast to the others, as she said she was hugging people to find out who the power was coming from. I do give the credit to God, as the experience was a complete surprise to me, and I certainly didn't expect that to happen. I was simply someone God was using at the time to accomplish His will. Do you think this experience was not of God?

I realize this subject might be off topic, so I'm open to PM.
TD

Perhaps I am making too fine a point on what is Biblical impartation and what is occult impartation. One is totally genuine, and the other is a very close counterfeit and in many cases it is almost impossible to tell the difference between the two.

I have attached a PDF article on Impartation written by a good friend of mine which I think gives the best teaching on it. So, at the risk of contradicting some things I have already said, I trust this teaching because I trust my friend, whom I have known since 1969 to be a doctrinally sound teacher in the Word.

I think it all has to do with who lays hands on people. If we do impart something, it is involved with who we are and our standing with the Lord. If a person is involved in heretical doctrines and wacky manifestations, then it would be dangerous to allow such a person to lay hands on me, because I wouldn't know what he might impart to me. It would be more likely that he would be imparting a spirit that is not of God.

I believe that if I am going to allow someone to lay hands on me, it will have to be someone whom I know and trust in the Lord; not some random stranger who decides he wants to impart something to me. I wouldn't let something like that get too close to me - I'd never know what might jump out on me!

Therefore, I think we must be very careful about laying on of hands, whether we lay hands on another person, or allow someone to lay hands on us.

What has made me very wary about these things is after reading Dave Hunt's Seduction of Christianity, and Occult Invasion. These two books really opened my eyes as to what is happening in the mainstream Charismatic movement in these days. It has caused me to stop accepting and practicing things that I have done for the last 50 years! In many ways those books have turned my Pentecostal theology right on its head and made me seriously examine the Scriptures to see if the things I used to accept and practice were really true; and I found out that much of it was not there in the New Testament! And my position is that if it ain't in the New Testament, then it ain't true.

So, I guess that is why I am fairly adamant that we know for sure the difference between genuine impartation in the Spirit and the witchcraft counterfeit.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from Traditional Theology to General Theology where it is a better fit. Traditional Theology has specific guidelines for topics. ​

 

[Blade]

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

I read some posts about power or gifts things like this. Peter and John "what I HAVE give I unto you" later said "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?" "And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all." Christ said "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Faith in that name. And what the disciples had in them we have in us.

Now we should know as Peter and John said its always Christ. Yet Christ said to US that believe " Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." So you do have the POWER in you, it has been given to you. Holy spirit, " I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. " Gifts..

Like Salvation. Its a gift its yours to keep. Yet like salvation we had nothing what so ever to do with it. So that POWER or GIFTS that are yours.. all came from GOD! And its HIM and HIM alone that does it and gets the glory.

It can get hard when you see things happening to get caught up into thinking its YOU not Him

 

[tdidymas]

Perhaps I am making too fine a point on what is Biblical impartation and what is occult impartation. One is totally genuine, and the other is a very close counterfeit and in many cases it is almost impossible to tell the difference between the two.

I have attached a PDF article on Impartation written by a good friend of mine which I think gives the best teaching on it. So, at the risk of contradicting some things I have already said, I trust this teaching because I trust my friend, whom I have known since 1969 to be a doctrinally sound teacher in the Word.

I think it all has to do with who lays hands on people. If we do impart something, it is involved with who we are and our standing with the Lord. If a person is involved in heretical doctrines and wacky manifestations, then it would be dangerous to allow such a person to lay hands on me, because I wouldn't know what he might impart to me. It would be more likely that he would be imparting a spirit that is not of God.

I believe that if I am going to allow someone to lay hands on me, it will have to be someone whom I know and trust in the Lord; not some random stranger who decides he wants to impart something to me. I wouldn't let something like that get too close to me - I'd never know what might jump out on me!

Therefore, I think we must be very careful about laying on of hands, whether we lay hands on another person, or allow someone to lay hands on us.

What has made me very wary about these things is after reading Dave Hunt's Seduction of Christianity, and Occult Invasion. These two books really opened my eyes as to what is happening in the mainstream Charismatic movement in these days. It has caused me to stop accepting and practicing things that I have done for the last 50 years! In many ways those books have turned my Pentecostal theology right on its head and made me seriously examine the Scriptures to see if the things I used to accept and practice were really true; and I found out that much of it was not there in the New Testament! And my position is that if it ain't in the New Testament, then it ain't true.

So, I guess that is why I am fairly adamant that we know for sure the difference between genuine impartation in the Spirit and the witchcraft counterfeit.

I think the difference is purpose, what the people hope to accomplish, and not the process. The WHO is doing it makes all the difference. I'd much rather have Peter lay his hands on me than Simon Magus. And the difference will be seen in the result, that is the fruit of the Spirit or not.

Concerning the article you mentioned, he makes this statement:
"There is an invisible flowing of spiritual ability from one to the other. That
invisible flowing goes from the spirit and heart of the imparter through the arms and
hands into the spirit and heart of the one having hands laid on them." To me, this sounds exactly like power going from one person to another.

A different article by the same author has this statement:
"when we function as Holy Spirit filled people, we can allow and release the Holy Spirit out of 'our innermost being' to flow like a river to bless, release and impact others." This sounds like a movement of supernatural power from one person to another.

So, I don't see how he believes any different that what I was saying before. Do you have a different understanding?
TD

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think the difference is purpose, what the people hope to accomplish, and not the process. The WHO is doing it makes all the difference. I'd much rather have Peter lay his hands on me than Simon Magus. And the difference will be seen in the result, that is the fruit of the Spirit or not.

Concerning the article you mentioned, he makes this statement:
"There is an invisible flowing of spiritual ability from one to the other. That
invisible flowing goes from the spirit and heart of the imparter through the arms and
hands into the spirit and heart of the one having hands laid on them." To me, this sounds exactly like power going from one person to another.

A different article by the same author has this statement:
"when we function as Holy Spirit filled people, we can allow and release the Holy Spirit out of 'our innermost being' to flow like a river to bless, release and impact others." This sounds like a movement of supernatural power from one person to another.

So, I don't see how he believes any different that what I was saying before. Do you have a different understanding?
TD

I have to agree that there is a flow of power. I was at a prophetic day when Rodney taught impartation in person. The way he explained it was that the impartation is from the Holy Spirit within the person, and in the area of healing, that the power goes straight to that part of the body that needs it. I actually don't have a problem with that.

What I don't concur with is the notion that the power comes from the person himself without any reference to the Holy Spirit. It gives the impression that the person has special powers that other Spirit-filled people don't have. The difference between witchcraft and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is that the person works in cooperation with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so gives glory to God because he knows that it is God the Holy Spirit who is imparting blessing, healing, etc., to the person being ministered to.

So, I think we are closer to being on the same page in this. It is being able to use the gift of discerning of spirits to discern whether a person is operating from the Holy Spirit as contrasted with a spirit of pride, lust, or a religious spirit. The gift of discerning of spirits is not just there to recognise demon spirits, but enables us to see what spirit a person is of. The positive side of discerning of spirits is to get discernment that the person is acting in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit which gives us the confidence to accept ministry from that person.

 

[tdidymas]

I have to agree that there is a flow of power. I was at a prophetic day when Rodney taught impartation in person. The way he explained it was that the impartation is from the Holy Spirit within the person, and in the area of healing, that the power goes straight to that part of the body that needs it. I actually don't have a problem with that.

What I don't concur with is the notion that the power comes from the person himself without any reference to the Holy Spirit. It gives the impression that the person has special powers that other Spirit-filled people don't have. The difference between witchcraft and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is that the person works in cooperation with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so gives glory to God because he knows that it is God the Holy Spirit who is imparting blessing, healing, etc., to the person being ministered to.

So, I think we are closer to being on the same page in this. It is being able to use the gift of discerning of spirits to discern whether a person is operating from the Holy Spirit as contrasted with a spirit of pride, lust, or a religious spirit. The gift of discerning of spirits is not just there to recognise demon spirits, but enables us to see what spirit a person is of. The positive side of discerning of spirits is to get discernment that the person is acting in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit which gives us the confidence to accept ministry from that person.

I think we might be almost on the same page. The way I read 1 Cor. 12 is that people are given abilities by the Spirit to do certain things, and that other people don't have those same gifts. I agree that the Spirit is the one producing the power and the gifting, but some have supernatural gifts that others don't have, just as some have natural talents that others don't have. Agree?
TD

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think we might be almost on the same page. The way I read 1 Cor. 12 is that people are given abilities by the Spirit to do certain things, and that other people don't have those same gifts. I agree that the Spirit is the one producing the power and the gifting, but some have supernatural gifts that others don't have, just as some have natural talents that others don't have. Agree?
TD

I think so. We see this in the Samaritan event. Philip preached the gospel to them and cast out demons, but he did not have the ability to lay hands on the new converts to get them filled with the Spirit. But Peter and John had that ability, so they were sent for in order to enable it to happen.

I worked with Rodney Francis in my involvement with the GFM ministry. He recognised that when I counselled believers to be filled with the Spirit and receive the gift of tongues, it happened every time. This meant that if there were people in a meeting who needed the filling of the Spirit, he would get me to counsel and minister to them because he recognised that I had that gifting from the Lord. Every now and again he will email me and ask me to counsel someone from India or Africa who has asked him how to be baptised with the Spirit.

Because there are two ways of looking at the baptism with the Spirit - at conversion or a subsequent event. In my counselling I treat it as a subsequent event and so follow the steps of faith to receive the baptism and the ability to speak in tongues. I encourage tongues because it is the easiest way to get the Spirit flowing out of the person. I never say that tongues is essential, but it is a good ability to assure a person that they are truly filled with the Spirit.

My back story about this is when I was involved with a Charismatic church and I used to see some poor schmuck up the front surrounded by people, half of whom were saying "Hold on brother" and the other half saying "Let go brother!" And the poor brother in the middle was totally confused and mostly went away failed. After seeing this a few times I said to the Lord, "There must be a better way than this!"

That's when the Lord told me that getting someone up the front and surrounding them was the worst way because the person being ministered to was not using his faith in Christ, but putting his faith on those ministering to him, and then expecting some sensory experience; and that it why it failed more times than succeeded.

Then He said that a person needed to use their faith and He showed me how to do that. Here are the steps He showed me:
1. The person has to be totally assured and convinced that this is the will of God for him. There is no point carrying on any further, and most failures happen because it is more the will of those who want the guy to be filled with the Spirit than the assurance in the guy that it is the will of God for him. Therefore, much time needs to be spent explaining it and showing him from Scripture that the filling of the Spirit is God's will and when he agrees that it is, then we can move to the next step.

2. The next step is to ask for the baptism with the Spirit. Philippians 4:6-7 says, "Everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving make your requests to God." Also, "If you ask for anything according to God's will, He will give it to you." James says, "You have not because you ask not."

3. The next step is to make a definite statement of acceptance of the baptism with the Spirit from the Lord. We can ask, and God will hold it out, but we have to, by faith, receive it from Him. Just saying, "Lord, I now receive the baptism with the Spirit" is enough.

4. I now tell the person that he or she is baptised with the Spirit, although they may not feel a thing. This is because the Spirit fills our spirit, and this is below our emotions. What brings the release and joy is when the Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are filled with the Spirit, and we react emotionally to that witness. When I know that a person has been baptised with the Spirit, I get the giggles. It is the joy that bubbles up from inside me as I get the witness that the person has received.

I am very careful to tell the person not to expect a sensory experience this is the way the devil interferes and gives a counterfeit. This is because the person has faith in the sensory experience rather than in the steps of faith that I have just brought them through.

5. Then I tell them that they can speak in tongues, and that I encourage it because it is the easiest way to get the Spirit flowing out of them. I explain that they have to "make up" the language in faith in the same way we prime an old fashioned water pump by pouring water down the top and then pumping like crazy until the flow of the artesian water comes. It is the same with tongues: We start forming the words in faith, and then the fluency comes as the Spirit flows out of us. It is what we believe we are doing which makes the difference. Sometimes I have got the person to speak my language as the "primer". Then I have told them to speak it all out and not stop. I have found every time that the flow of language has been quite different to the words I have given them. As the Spirit flows out of them, they have spoken a totally different language, and sometimes the language has been articulate, expressive and just beautiful.

There was once in a meeting when I took a young lady through the steps, and when we got to the point where she said, "Lord, I now receive the baptism with the Spirit", she suddenly went, "Oh!" and start speaking a beautiful unique language without any further prompting from me!

There was another time I was helping a young guy, went through all the steps, encouraged him to speak my language, and the flow just wouldn't come. So in the end I said to the Lord, "Jesus, you are the Baptiser with the Spirit and so I give him up to you." Immediately he started speaking his own unique language in tongues! The Lord said to me, "You have just learned an important lesson. Even though I showed you the steps of faith, the outcome is not the technique, but is the Holy Spirit who does it. You must always remember that I am the Baptiser with the Spirit, not you."

After learning that lesson, I have never had a failure. There have been times when the person has told me that they want to continue on their own in private, and they have come back to me the next day to tell me that they received the gift of tongues.

Of course, we are going to get those who will oppose what I am saying, mainly because they are either Cessationist, or they have their faith in a sensory experience, and can't accept that the baptism with the Spirit is received through cold-blooded, relaxed faith over a cup of coffee. Unless there is some kind a dramatic experience they won't accept that the baptism with the Spirit comes so easily and quietly. So those people may need to forgive me if I ignore their responses.

But I will always be available to anyone who is seeking the baptism with the Spirit and who is prepared to try out my steps of faith. When I was involved in Christian conventions and many went down to the counselling area to receive the baptism, I used to wait until the "chronics" who couldn't get through to the baptism were left. Then I would go to each one, give them my steps of faith and see each one launch out in tongues! I found that very satisfying, and that is probably why Rodney recognised that the Lord had given me a ministry in that area.

 

[tdidymas]

I think so. We see this in the Samaritan event. Philip preached the gospel to them and cast out demons, but he did not have the ability to lay hands on the new converts to get them filled with the Spirit. But Peter and John had that ability, so they were sent for in order to enable it to happen.

I worked with Rodney Francis in my involvement with the GFM ministry. He recognised that when I counselled believers to be filled with the Spirit and receive the gift of tongues, it happened every time. This meant that if there were people in a meeting who needed the filling of the Spirit, he would get me to counsel and minister to them because he recognised that I had that gifting from the Lord. Every now and again he will email me and ask me to counsel someone from India or Africa who has asked him how to be baptised with the Spirit.

Because there are two ways of looking at the baptism with the Spirit - at conversion or a subsequent event. In my counselling I treat it as a subsequent event and so follow the steps of faith to receive the baptism and the ability to speak in tongues. I encourage tongues because it is the easiest way to get the Spirit flowing out of the person. I never say that tongues is essential, but it is a good ability to assure a person that they are truly filled with the Spirit.

My back story about this is when I was involved with a Charismatic church and I used to see some poor schmuck up the front surrounded by people, half of whom were saying "Hold on brother" and the other half saying "Let go brother!" And the poor brother in the middle was totally confused and mostly went away failed. After seeing this a few times I said to the Lord, "There must be a better way than this!"

That's when the Lord told me that getting someone up the front and surrounding them was the worst way because the person being ministered to was not using his faith in Christ, but putting his faith on those ministering to him, and then expecting some sensory experience; and that it why it failed more times than succeeded.

Then He said that a person needed to use their faith and He showed me how to do that. Here are the steps He showed me:
1. The person has to be totally assured and convinced that this is the will of God for him. There is no point carrying on any further, and most failures happen because it is more the will of those who want the guy to be filled with the Spirit than the assurance in the guy that it is the will of God for him. Therefore, much time needs to be spent explaining it and showing him from Scripture that the filling of the Spirit is God's will and when he agrees that it is, then we can move to the next step.

2. The next step is to ask for the baptism with the Spirit. Philippians 4:6-7 says, "Everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving make your requests to God." Also, "If you ask for anything according to God's will, He will give it to you." James says, "You have not because you ask not."

3. The next step is to make a definite statement of acceptance of the baptism with the Spirit from the Lord. We can ask, and God will hold it out, but we have to, by faith, receive it from Him. Just saying, "Lord, I now receive the baptism with the Spirit" is enough.

4. I now tell the person that he or she is baptised with the Spirit, although they may not feel a thing. This is because the Spirit fills our spirit, and this is below our emotions. What brings the release and joy is when the Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are filled with the Spirit, and we react emotionally to that witness. When I know that a person has been baptised with the Spirit, I get the giggles. It is the joy that bubbles up from inside me as I get the witness that the person has received.

I am very careful to tell the person not to expect a sensory experience this is the way the devil interferes and gives a counterfeit. This is because the person has faith in the sensory experience rather than in the steps of faith that I have just brought them through.

5. Then I tell them that they can speak in tongues, and that I encourage it because it is the easiest way to get the Spirit flowing out of them. I explain that they have to "make up" the language in faith in the same way we prime an old fashioned water pump by pouring water down the top and then pumping like crazy until the flow of the artesian water comes. It is the same with tongues: We start forming the words in faith, and then the fluency comes as the Spirit flows out of us. It is what we believe we are doing which makes the difference. Sometimes I have got the person to speak my language as the "primer". Then I have told them to speak it all out and not stop. I have found every time that the flow of language has been quite different to the words I have given them. As the Spirit flows out of them, they have spoken a totally different language, and sometimes the language has been articulate, expressive and just beautiful.

There was once in a meeting when I took a young lady through the steps, and when we got to the point where she said, "Lord, I now receive the baptism with the Spirit", she suddenly went, "Oh!" and start speaking a beautiful unique language without any further prompting from me!

There was another time I was helping a young guy, went through all the steps, encouraged him to speak my language, and the flow just wouldn't come. So in the end I said to the Lord, "Jesus, you are the Baptiser with the Spirit and so I give him up to you." Immediately he started speaking his own unique language in tongues! The Lord said to me, "You have just learned an important lesson. Even though I showed you the steps of faith, the outcome is not the technique, but is the Holy Spirit who does it. You must always remember that I am the Baptiser with the Spirit, not you."

After learning that lesson, I have never had a failure. There have been times when the person has told me that they want to continue on their own in private, and they have come back to me the next day to tell me that they received the gift of tongues.

Of course, we are going to get those who will oppose what I am saying, mainly because they are either Cessationist, or they have their faith in a sensory experience, and can't accept that the baptism with the Spirit is received through cold-blooded, relaxed faith over a cup of coffee. Unless there is some kind a dramatic experience they won't accept that the baptism with the Spirit comes so easily and quietly. So those people may need to forgive me if I ignore their responses.

But I will always be available to anyone who is seeking the baptism with the Spirit and who is prepared to try out my steps of faith. When I was involved in Christian conventions and many went down to the counselling area to receive the baptism, I used to wait until the "chronics" who couldn't get through to the baptism were left. Then I would go to each one, give them my steps of faith and see each one launch out in tongues! I found that very satisfying, and that is probably why Rodney recognised that the Lord had given me a ministry in that area.

Bro, I commend you for your efforts, and are sure you are sincere in what you believe. I have to admit that this is where our paths diverge, as I'm not sure that modern day "tongues" are of God, since in my research it appears to me to be a natural phenomenon. That's unlike the tongues of Acts that were real languages which proved them to be miraculous.

One time someone I knew and respected, who I spent a year in Bible study with, wanted to talk to me privately. The conversation got to him asking me if I was ever filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, and he wanted me to do that, I think because he thought it would solve my issues which I had a few at the time. I told him that I didn't think what he was doing was godly. He then asked me if I did it, how would I feel about it (with that emphasis), I take it because he thought I was too much in my head. When I searched my heart for how I would feel, my response was "I would feel as if I was mocking the Holy Spirit." That ended the conversation.

I'm just letting you know how I stand on that issue. I believe that God heals people and does miraculous acts. I also believe that God works through natural processes, so that we can say that many coincidences are the working of God, although I don't call that miracles, I call it Providence. I certainly believe that when a person comes to faith in Christ (I mean real biblical faith, not the kind that is claimed only), that it is an act of God.
TD

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Bro, I commend you for your efforts, and are sure you are sincere in what you believe. I have to admit that this is where our paths diverge, as I'm not sure that modern day "tongues" are of God, since in my research it appears to me to be a natural phenomenon. That's unlike the tongues of Acts that were real languages which proved them to be miraculous.

One time someone I knew and respected, who I spent a year in Bible study with, wanted to talk to me privately. The conversation got to him asking me if I was ever filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, and he wanted me to do that, I think because he thought it would solve my issues which I had a few at the time. I told him that I didn't think what he was doing was godly. He then asked me if I did it, how would I feel about it (with that emphasis), I take it because he thought I was too much in my head. When I searched my heart for how I would feel, my response was "I would feel as if I was mocking the Holy Spirit." That ended the conversation.

I'm just letting you know how I stand on that issue. I believe that God heals people and does miraculous acts. I also believe that God works through natural processes, so that we can say that many coincidences are the working of God, although I don't call that miracles, I call it Providence. I certainly believe that when a person comes to faith in Christ (I mean real biblical faith, not the kind that is claimed only), that it is an act of God.
TD

This is one area I don't debate about. I make my stand securely on 1 Corinthians 14, especially verse 2. I am Sola Scriptura, and believe that the Bible is totally true, and that the whole of 1 Corinthians is written not only for the Corinthian church but, as 1 Corinthians 1 says, for all Christian believers everywhere, including right now. There are no Scriptures anywhere in the New Testament that prove otherwise, and I don't believe in some extra-Biblical Cessationist "revelation" that was thought up some time in the Middle Ages by some mad monk to try and explain that the cessation of the supernatural gifts, including tongues was anything other than the church going apostate because of the infusion of pagan ceremonies and rituals that replaced the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

It was when the church evolved into a fraudulent religious organisation that put its faith more on the authority of the church than on the Jesus of the Bible. It perpetuated the fraud by keeping the Scriptures away from the common people and not allowing it to be translated into the language of the people, and so only those committed to the fraud, knowing that dead language Latin, to know the truth, which they suppressed for over a 1000 years, and killed anyone who tried to translate the Bible into any other language, until Luther managed to get it translated into the common German language. That is when the Reformers found out for sure that the Established Church was just a paganised fraud.

In fact, the damage has not been entirely repaired, resulting in many areas of the church maintaining the Cessationist fraud thought up by those in the fraudulent pre-Reformation established church.

Oh bother! I debated it! Oh well, too bad, how sad, but there it is.

 

[tdidymas]

This is one area I don't debate about. I make my stand securely on 1 Corinthians 14, especially verse 2. I am Sola Scriptura, and believe that the Bible is totally true, and that the whole of 1 Corinthians is written not only for the Corinthian church but, as 1 Corinthians 1 says, for all Christian believers everywhere, including right now. There are no Scriptures anywhere in the New Testament that prove otherwise, and I don't believe in some extra-Biblical Cessationist "revelation" that was thought up some time in the Middle Ages by some mad monk to try and explain that the cessation of the supernatural gifts, including tongues was anything other than the church going apostate because of the infusion of pagan ceremonies and rituals that replaced the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

It was when the church evolved into a fraudulent religious organisation that put its faith more on the authority of the church than on the Jesus of the Bible. It perpetuated the fraud by keeping the Scriptures away from the common people and not allowing it to be translated into the language of the people, and so only those committed to the fraud, knowing that dead language Latin, to know the truth, which they suppressed for over a 1000 years, and killed anyone who tried to translate the Bible into any other language, until Luther managed to get it translated into the common German language. That is when the Reformers found out for sure that the Established Church was just a paganised fraud.

In fact, the damage has not been entirely repaired, resulting in many areas of the church maintaining the Cessationist fraud thought up by those in the fraudulent pre-Reformation established church.

Oh bother! I debated it! Oh well, too bad, how sad, but there it is.

Well, I also could debate about the prolific wild imaginations of Charismatics who call things miracles that are no such, and the prolific liars and fraud artists of the past 100 years. But I won't do that either.

Everyone has an opinion.
TD