Do you believe Christmas is pagan?

[Call me Nic]

Just my personal opinion. Perhaps the day of the year has pagan roots, but the object of celebration during Christmas is far from being Pagan. I am of the persuasion that there is nothing wrong, biblically, with celebrating Christmas for the purpose of honoring the birth of the Savior.

However, I try to lead my family out of the pagan elements that still persist in the tradition, such as Santa Claus, the mythology of elfs and flying reindeer, etc. in order to "purify" the holiday in a sense, to sanctify it unto the Lord rather than giving into the idiosyncrasies of our culture; hopefully by doing that my kid(s) will grow up always associating Christmas with the birth of Jesus Christ the Messiah, as opposed to associating it with Santa Claus and presents.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

The apostles never attended a football game or used a flush toilet, either. What's your point?



See the Genetic Fallacy.



The Christmas tree didn't come from God? Even the devil himself came from God. In any case, the apostles never drove a car, or voted, or said a word about modern medicine. Ought we, then, to discard these things? No.



So? This has nothing whatever to do with why I celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December.



No "righteous man" in the Bible flew in an airplane or brushed his teeth with a toothbrush and toothpaste, either. Again, what's your point? Are you saying righteous men ought never to fly or brush their teeth? They didn't do either of these things in the Bible, right?



Nor is it forbidden in Scripture, either.



No, but it was a great example of bad reasoning.

I'm sorry you could not provide any biblical support for your argument. Until you can show in Scripture where either Christ or the Apostles say we are to keep this tradition, then we have no basis to keep it.
Christ and the Apostles fully preached the Doctrine and traditions of Christ, if we were to keep the Lord's birthday they would have spoken of it.
Declared all the counsel of God(Acts 20:26-28)
Continued in Doctrine of the Apostles(Acts 2:42)
Hold Fast to the Doctrine(Titus 1:9)
Paul has Planted the word(2 Thess 3:6)
Hold Fast to the word and Tradtions we have been taught(2 Thess 2:14-17)
Doctrine of Christ(2 John 9-10)
Oberserve these things(2 Tim 5:21)
Be mindful of the words spoken by the prophets and the commandments of the Apostles and Christ(2 Peter 3:1-2, 15-18)
Keep the sound words given by Paul(1 Timohty 1:13-14)
Fully known the Doctrine, continue in things learned(2 Tim 3:10, 14-15)
Laws of God (Rom 13:2,9-10)
Stablish according to the Gospel and preaching of Christ(Romans 16:25-27)
Fully preached the Gospel of Christ(Romans 15:19,29)
Acknowledge things spoken as commandments of the Lord(1 Cor 14:37)
Gospel received by Revelation of Christ(Gal 1:6-12)
Christ the same today yesterday and tomorrow, so to is the word of God the same. (Hebrews 13:8-9)
Keep the Commandments given by Christ(John 14:21,23, Matt 28:20)
Holy word of God is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21)


P.S. we are discussing the word of God here and the traditions concerning his word that we are to keep by commandment. None of the things you mentioned have any impact on us spiritually. Keeping a Holiday not Commanded by God and calling it Godly does affect your salvation, since it is a sin. It's calling evil good.
Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[Not David]

Obviously we do not know the actual date Jesus was born. Nevertheless, celebrating the most important birth in the history of the world is something that cannot be ignored, so His Church chose a date on which to celebrate His birth. Pagan? In what possible sense could this be "pagan"??

Some people claim that the Apostles didn't celebrate it and it is not in the Bible.

 

[Not David]

I'm sorry you could not provide any biblical support for your argument. Until you can show in Scripture where either Christ or the Apostles say we are to keep this tradition, then we have no basis to keep it.
Christ and the Apostles fully preached the Doctrine and traditions of Christ, if we were to keep the Lord's birthday they would have spoken of it.
Declared all the counsel of God(Acts 20:26-28)
Continued in Doctrine of the Apostles(Acts 2:42)
Hold Fast to the Doctrine(Titus 1:9)
Paul has Planted the word(2 Thess 3:6)
Hold Fast to the word and Tradtions we have been taught(2 Thess 2:14-17)
Doctrine of Christ(2 John 9-10)
Oberserve these things(2 Tim 5:21)
Be mindful of the words spoken by the prophets and the commandments of the Apostles and Christ(2 Peter 3:1-2, 15-18)
Keep the sound words given by Paul(1 Timohty 1:13-14)
Fully known the Doctrine, continue in things learned(2 Tim 3:10, 14-15)
Laws of God (Rom 13:2,9-10)
Stablish according to the Gospel and preaching of Christ(Romans 16:25-27)
Fully preached the Gospel of Christ(Romans 15:19,29)
Acknowledge things spoken as commandments of the Lord(1 Cor 14:37)
Gospel received by Revelation of Christ(Gal 1:6-12)
Christ the same today yesterday and tomorrow, so to is the word of God the same. (Hebrews 13:8-9)
Keep the Commandments given by Christ(John 14:21,23, Matt 28:20)
Holy word of God is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21)


P.S. we are discussing the word of God here and the traditions concerning his word that we are to keep by commandment. None of the things you mentioned have any impact on us spiritually. Keeping a Holiday not Commanded by God and calling it Godly does affect your salvation, since it is a sin. It's calling evil good.
Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The Bible doesn't say that the worship services has to be like the ones at Evangelical Churches. The Bible doesn't tell us everything we have or we don't have to do. Don't be a Biblicist!

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

The Bible doesn't say that the worship services has to be like the ones at Evangelical Churches. The Bible doesn't tell us everything we have or we don't have to do. Don't be a Biblicist!

They preached the fullness of the doctrine, how we live as Christians should be based on the words of God and the traditions of God. Anything concerning our spirit and living in the spirit should be founded on God's eternal word, not based on the traditions of men.

 

[Not David]

They preached the fullness of the doctrine, how we live as Christians should be based on the words of God and the traditions of God. Anything concerning our spirit and living in the spirit should be founded on God's eternal word, not based on the traditions of men.

Is there something in the Bible about the "fullness of the doctrine"?

 

[Call me Nic]

They preached the fullness of the doctrine, how we live as Christians should be based on the words of God and the traditions of God. Anything concerning our spirit and living in the spirit should be founded on God's eternal word, not based on the traditions of men.

No one is saying that you have to celebrate Christmas, nor should you feel obligated to. I think everyone's point is that the Bible doesn't restrict the celebration of such a day.

 

[dqhall]

Interesting article, but I was disappointed that the priestly cycle of service for division Abijah (John the Immerser's father) was left out of the calculation. Each division had 2 times in the Temple. aprox 6 months apart. Doing that calc puts Our Lord's birth either at Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) or at Passover. Either would fit with the narrative that there was no room since everyone had to go to Jerusalem for both feasts, and with Rome's practicality of taking census taxes during major local feasts where everyone was together at the same time.

According to the Gospels Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem to register for a Roman census. Bethlehem is about 5.5 miles south of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The Jews were required to set aside a second tithe and spend it in Jerusalem during the three mandatory festivals. For the festivals the borders of Jerusalem were expanded to the Mount of Olives. I have not found evidence the borders of Jerusalem were expanded for Pesach or Sukkot as far as Bethlehem. Some people camped in the Kidron Valley (Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, Joachim Jeremias, 1969, Gospels and Talmud).

Christmas is a Christian holiday. It is understood we do not know the exact time of his birth, but may remember it on December the 25th. The Santa Clause stories are false and pagan.

 

[Newtheran]

I'm sorry you could not provide any biblical support for your argument. Until you can show in Scripture where either Christ or the Apostles say we are to keep this tradition, then we have no basis to keep it.
Christ and the Apostles fully preached the Doctrine and traditions of Christ, if we were to keep the Lord's birthday they would have spoken of it.
Declared all the counsel of God(Acts 20:26-28)
Continued in Doctrine of the Apostles(Acts 2:42)
Hold Fast to the Doctrine(Titus 1:9)
Paul has Planted the word(2 Thess 3:6)
Hold Fast to the word and Tradtions we have been taught(2 Thess 2:14-17)
Doctrine of Christ(2 John 9-10)
Oberserve these things(2 Tim 5:21)
Be mindful of the words spoken by the prophets and the commandments of the Apostles and Christ(2 Peter 3:1-2, 15-18)
Keep the sound words given by Paul(1 Timohty 1:13-14)
Fully known the Doctrine, continue in things learned(2 Tim 3:10, 14-15)
Laws of God (Rom 13:2,9-10)
Stablish according to the Gospel and preaching of Christ(Romans 16:25-27)
Fully preached the Gospel of Christ(Romans 15:19,29)
Acknowledge things spoken as commandments of the Lord(1 Cor 14:37)
Gospel received by Revelation of Christ(Gal 1:6-12)
Christ the same today yesterday and tomorrow, so to is the word of God the same. (Hebrews 13:8-9)
Keep the Commandments given by Christ(John 14:21,23, Matt 28:20)
Holy word of God is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21)


P.S. we are discussing the word of God here and the traditions concerning his word that we are to keep by commandment. None of the things you mentioned have any impact on us spiritually. Keeping a Holiday not Commanded by God and calling it Godly does affect your salvation, since it is a sin. It's calling evil good.
Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You clearly put a lot of emphasis on scripture, which is to be lauded.

Out of curiousity, do you use the abbreviated 66 book Bible of 1928, or the original 80 book Bible that the church used prior to the 19th-20th century?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Just because the early church co-opted a pagan festival in order to attract converts doesn't mean we can't still use that day to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior.

 

[Albion]

Co-opted the date/season, but not the festival.

 

[AFrazier]

According to scripture and science, Jesus should have been born in the vicinity of June. Mary was visited by Gabrielle in the sixth month. An average gestation period for a first pregnancy is about forty weeks, and variation from this is in a very low percentile. Forty weeks from the sixth Jewish month of the year would put his birth right around late May or sometime in June, depending on precisely when in the sixth month Mary conceived, and whether the birth was timely, early, or late.

The December 25th tradition is recorded at least as early as the Chronographer of 354, and the date, according to early Christian apologists, was the conclusion of research by men like Cyril of Jerusalem, not former pagan traditions. The date precedes the formal Roman Catholic Church. However, the December 25th date does align with the winter solstice, and it's not impossible that someone made an assumption relative to the solemnity of the solstice holidays prevalent during that time period. Nevertheless, Christmas was a celebration of the birth of Christ, and they sought a sincere date for that event. There is no evidence that the Christians of the day deliberately took a pagan holiday and repurposed it to serve Christian ends. That is an unproven assumption.

It is clear that there are old pagan traditions that have been incorporated into the Christian holiday. However, again, Christmas is not an adaptation of a pagan holiday repurposed to the Christian faith. Pagan traditions have been adapted and repurposed to serve the Christian holiday.

Either way, when we celebrate Christmas, we are celebrating the birth of Christ. Any ties to paganism some of our traditions may have are irrelevant. For Christmas to be pagan, we have to be recognizing the holiday as the celebration of some non-Christian, polytheistic religion. I don't. Therefore, Christmas is not pagan. Christmas is Christian. It is the celebration of the birth of Christ. That is what I am celebrating. That's what I have always celebrated it as. That is what I always will celebrate it as.

 

[Kaon]

By way of analogy, during the invasion of Iraq, after the Iraqi army had been defeated and Saddam Hussein went into hiding, General Tommy Franks and some of his associates sat in Saddam's palace, on his sofa, and smoked cigars. It was one of those gratuitous symbols of victory over an enemy. Several pictures were taken of it.

Should someone look at one of those pictures, would they mistake Tommy Franks for Saddam Hussein? After all, who else would sit on the sofa in the palace smoking a cigar other than Saddam Hussein?

Christmas is the same. If you walk up to ten people on the street and ask them what Christmas is there is a very good chance that all ten of them will answer that it is Jesus' birthday. No one remembers any of the myriad pagan festivals of the winter solstice. Christmas is "captured territory".

The writer to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 15:25 said:

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet

Celebrate Christmas. It is the birth of Jesus. Ask anybody.

Did the Word of God give a day to celebrate His birthday? Did the Hebrews celebrate birthdates?

 

[Kaon]

According to scripture and science, Jesus should have been born in the vicinity of June. Mary was visited by Gabrielle in the sixth month. An average gestation period for a first pregnancy is about forty weeks, and variation from this is in a very low percentile. Forty weeks from the sixth Jewish month of the year would put his birth right around late May or sometime in June, depending on precisely when in the sixth month Mary conceived, and whether the birth was timely, early, or late.

The December 25th tradition is recorded at least as early as the Chronographer of 354, and the date, according to early Christian apologists, was the conclusion of research by men like Cyril of Jerusalem, not former pagan traditions. The date precedes the formal Roman Catholic Church. However, the December 25th date does align with the winter solstice, and it's not impossible that someone made an assumption relative to the solemnity of the solstice holidays prevalent during that time period. Nevertheless, Christmas was a celebration of the birth of Christ, and they sought a sincere date for that event. There is no evidence that the Christians of the day deliberately took a pagan holiday and repurposed it to serve Christian ends. That is an unproven assumption.

It is clear that there are old pagan traditions that have been incorporated into the Christian holiday. However, again, Christmas is not an adaptation of a pagan holiday repurposed to the Christian faith. Pagan traditions have been adapted and repurposed to serve the Christian holiday.

Either way, when we celebrate Christmas, we are celebrating the birth of Christ. Any ties to paganism some of our traditions may have are irrelevant. For Christmas to be pagan, we have to be recognizing the holiday as the celebration of some non-Christian, polytheistic religion. I don't. Therefore, Christmas is not pagan. Christmas is Christian. It is the celebration of the birth of Christ. That is what I am celebrating. That's what I have always celebrated it as. That is what I always will celebrate it as.

Mithraism, for example, was prominent before the Word of God was born on this plane of existence as a human. The druids also.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

You clearly put a lot of emphasis on scripture, which is to be lauded.

Out of curiousity, do you use the abbreviated 66 book Bible of 1928, or the original 80 book Bible that the church used prior to the 19th-20th century?

I only use the original KJV after the 1611(1611's language is difficult to read). So the 66 book bible since those are the books that I believe and know are true written accounts of God's word, as the authors are all validated.

Though I have read some of the other books(book of Enoch, apocalypse of peter)but do not believe they are completely accurate or valid words of God. I believe there is knowledge to be gained by reading them, but I believe the same about all religious texts/books.

 

[HTacianas]

Did the Word of God give a day to celebrate His birthday? Did the Hebrews celebrate birthdates?

Why should we concern ourselves with either of those?

 

[Albion]

The thing is that no alternate date would be "the correct" date, either, so if some arbitrary choice is necessary, December 25 is as good as any. And so is January 7, on which Eastern Christians celebrate the nativity of Our Lord.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

No one is saying that you have to celebrate Christmas, nor should you feel obligated to. I think everyone's point is that the Bible doesn't restrict the celebration of such a day.

Our only examples of people celebrating birthdays from the bible is by pagans, if we were to keep/celebrate the anniversary of one's birth the Apostles would have told us to. Thus we can conclude that it's origins are not of God but rooted in paganism, from such traditions we are to removes ourselves. Making it a sin to keep.

If you need the verses for each of the points I made they are in the original post in this thread.

 

[Newtheran]

I only use the original KJV after the 1611(1611's language is difficult to read). So the 66 book bible since those are the books that I believe and know are true written accounts of God's word.

That's a bit of circular reasoning, don't you think? I only use the 2nd edition of the KJV because the first edition is too difficult to read, but won't give ground to those who think the 2nd edition of the KJV is too hard to read...and only accept 66 books because I think they are true?

 

[Kaon]

Why should we concern ourselves with either of those?

Because if you are a Christian, you follow Christ right?

If He didn't even celebrate His birthday, why is it a commercial holiday? If the Hebrews didn't either, then there is historical precedence contrary to a commercialized overcelebrated holiday.

The Most High God explicitly gave 7 Holy Days (holidays) for His people to follow; Christmas wasn't one of them. It is a tradition of men, and also rich in paganism and mystery religion.