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Featured Do you believe Christmas is pagan?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by JohnB445, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    You still have problems with your theory. The Chagigah COULD have bones broken, in fact it could be cut apart. Yom HaBikkrim is on the 16th, not the 17th. I could go on and on. None of this seems to bother you in the least. We are off timelines by one day it seems, but what one day makes a difference! You say prophecy fulfilled...a Pesakh prophecy...not a Chagigah prophecy.

    Mine: Erev Pesakh/14th...Yeshua holds the "last supper" before the fast of the firstborn which occurs during the daylight hours of the 14th. Pesakh..14th Yeshua dies as the Pascal Lamb of God and is buried before sunset. Shabbat...15th Yeshua is in the tomb. Yom HaBikkurim...16th Yeshua rises from death. He ascends and presents His firstfruit offering to The Father. The Father accepts it.

    Your theory: Chag HaMatzot...15th Yeshua holds the last supper. Over night, on a feast day, the Sanhedrin convicts Him. The next morning, on a feast day, He is tried, convicted, beaten and killed as a Chagigah. He was buried and then rose on the 17th.
     
  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Pesakh (the 14th) is not the 1st day on unleavened (the 15th). The lambs is killed on the 14th, not the 15th. Passover is also sometimes used to describe the entire 7 days. Another problem is that word "pronte" as "first" but can also mean "before". This would be important (Now before the day of unleavened (15th), when they killed the Passover (on the 14th). What I am saying is that Yeshua NEVER ate Passover that year...HE was the Passover. I have no problems with my timeline and scripture. I dare you to post your theory in this thread...

    Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?
     
  3. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    No, it was your interpretation, not the Bible, that was wrong
     
  4. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    • First, the clause is this: καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν ἀζύμων

    τῇ is on the, as the definite article in the dative case, singular.
    πρώτῃ is first as a superlative. It means the very first, or first-most. It is in the dative case, singular.
    ἡμέρᾳ is day, in the dative case, singular.
    As a matter of case agreement in an inflected language, these three words go together. Because they go together, πρώτῃ, or first, is not a preposition expressing time (before), but an adjective modifying ἡμέρᾳ (day).

    τῶν is of the, as the definite article in the genitive case, plural.
    ἀζύμων is unleavened, in the genitive case, plural.
    These two words form a prepositional phrase to define what day the day in the first half of the clause is first-most of.

    The clause reads, And on the very first day of the [days of] unleavened [bread]....

    Abandon all thoughts of this being a viable answer for your dilemma. πρώτῃ, in this context, is an adjective, and can't be translated as before, no matter how much you might want it to. A strict translation does not read, on the before day ..., but, on the very first day ...

    • The 14th is the first day when leaven was not to be found in the home.

    Exodus 12:18 — the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

    Exodus 34:25 — Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

    On the 14th, from noon forward, leaven was prohibited. The 14th is the first day of unleavened bread, if not necessarily the first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread.

    • Whether or not the Chagigah could have its bones broken is irrelevant. As I've said many times, theology does not dictate physical chronology. The fulfillment of prophecy was relative to Psalm 34:20 — He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. That's what the prophecy said, and that's what happened. Prophecy was fulfilled.

    • I don't see any substantiation for the last supper being prior to the afternoon of the 14th. The last supper continued at least until night, as evidenced by it being night after Judas left. I get that you are considering the Mark and Luke passage as "before" the day of unleavened bread, and this is probably an offshoot of that. However, seeing that Mark doesn't say "before," the idea of the last supper occurring prior to the afternoon of the 14th is unsubstantiated.

    • Lastly, I have no problem posting in another thread. The facts are the facts. Theology doesn't dictate chronology.
     
  5. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Hello and welcome to CF. :)

    Some interesting points in that article.

    "For a surprising number of American believers, the chief concern wasn’t putting Christ back into Christmas. It was taking Christmas out of Christianity."

    And ...

    "You can hear the echo of that sentiment today, in the criticism of the megachurches that have announced that they will be closed on Christmas, because their leaders think congregations and church staff would rather remain home with their families. “Our culture does not need any encouragement to be more self-centered or narcissistic, or to stay at home on Sunday,” Bible scholar Ben Witherington III wrote on Beliefnet last week. “Shame on you, megachurches.”

    It is sometimes very ironic to me, the way Holy Days are handled by the very churches you would think might be keeping them.

    Thanks for sharing. And again, welcome to CF. :)
     
  6. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    [QUOTE="AFrazier, post: 73259968, member: 386052
    • Whether or not the Chagigah could have its bones broken is irrelevant. As I've said many times, theology does not dictate physical chronology. The fulfillment of prophecy was relative to Psalm 34:20 — He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. That's what the prophecy said, and that's what happened. Prophecy was fulfilled.

    • Lastly, I have no problem posting in another thread. The facts are the facts. Theology doesn't dictate chronology.[/QUOTE]

    Well, yes it IS relevant, since John says it is and that is ONLY on the 14th. Only the Pesakh lamb is quoted as such. Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12 are speaking of the lamb and Psalm 34:20 says "He". So you are saying there is NO relationship between Exodus, Numbers, Psalm, John and the Pesakh lamb and the 14th?

    Also, it is quite evident that John 19:31 says the 14th was a Friday and the 15th was the Sabbath..."Since it was the day of Preparation (Friday the 14th), and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day...the 15th), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

    So go post it then in the other thread!
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  7. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One problem you're having here is that you are insisting that the 14th was on Friday. When John says that it was the day of Preparation, all that tells us is that it was Friday. It does not tell us it was Friday the 14th.

    And no, it's not relevant. John never referred to Jesus as the passover. Paul is the only one to ever do so (1 Corinthians 5:7). John pointed out the scripture in Psalm 34:20 as the prophecy being fulfilled, and is conspicuous in omitting any parallel between Jesus and the passover lamb. He did not say, "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, 'neither shall ye break a bone thereof.'" Rather, he said, "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, 'A bone of him shall not be broken.'" (John 19:36)

    But so that we're clear and not communicating at cross purposes ... know that I believe Jesus was our passover. I'm not in denial about that. Where we're differing on all this is that you are insisting that as the passover, he had to suffer and die according to the ritual of the passover. However, apart from the assumption that he died on the 14th and didn't have any bones broken, there's nothing about his death whatsoever that parallels the passover. When you consider further that Jesus actually ate the passover at the last supper (I know you disagree) and therefore didn't even die on the 14th, the fact is, the only parallel Jesus shares with the passover is that his bones weren't broken, which John tells us is the fulfillment of a prophecy in Psalms.

    Here is an excerpt from one of the books I wrote called The Salvation Enigma. While this segment is out of its natural context of the book (and has a fuller explanation with the other associated parts), it does address the subject under consideration.

    -------------------

    Most of us are taught that Christ was a heavenly version of the Old Testament sin offering. He was a spotless lamb who came and died for our sins.[1] The far-reaching application and effect of his sacrifice versus that of animals was merely a byproduct of his status as the son of God. Heavenly things require better sacrifices, so his greater sacrifice had a greater result.[2]

    However, while there is some truth to this line of reasoning, it assigns too much focus and priority on the parallels to legalistic rituals, and neglects the stated purpose of his death. Christ fulfilled any number of such parallels. He is the word made flesh, the very image of the heavenly patterns foreshadowed in the law.[3] As such, these parallels are to be expected.

    We know, for example, that he was our Passover. The time of his death is consistent with the Passover.[4] He arrived in Jerusalem on lamb selection day.[5] When the soldiers came to break the bones of the crucified prisoners, he was already dead, so his bones were not broken, which follows the statutes of the Passover.[6] Paul even says that “Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.”[7]

    Christ likewise died as a worthy offering, sacrificing himself so he could enter the very presence of God, the heavenly holy of holies, and make atonement for the world as the high priest would do on the Day of Atonement.[8] He is our high priest, according to the order of Melchisedec, who was “without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God.”[9] And in the interest of pointing out the futility of trying to impose parallelisms on the significance of Christ’s sacrifice, it is worth noting in this instance that the high priest first made a sacrifice for himself on the Day of Atonement. It purified him before entering into the presence of God, where he would then make intercession on behalf of the people.[10] Christ offered his own self as a perfect sacrifice to gain access to the throne of God.[11] His intercession on our behalf, according to the Day of Atonement ritual, was a related, but separate act. In other words, his death in this specific parallel was not a sacrifice intended for us, but for himself.

    Our atonement was fulfilled through yet another parallel. In addition to being the high priest, Christ was also the scapegoat associated with the Day of Atonement. The high priest would select two goats. Lots would be cast, and the scapegoat would have the sins of the people laid upon its head and be led out of town.[12] Christ, the son of God the Father, and Barabbas, “son of the father,” stood before the people, paralleling the two goats.[13] Jesus, chosen to be the scapegoat, was led out of town with the sins of the people, wearing a crimson cord of blood around his head from the crown of thorns, in an extended fulfillment of the priestly laws and practices.[14]

    There are many parallels I could list, though others require more extensive discourse. Suffice it to say, Christ’s fulfillment of these things was inevitable. The sacrifices and rituals were designed according to the pattern of what was to come. Until Christ came and the heavenly application of the traditions was put into action, the mystery of their purpose remained veiled and hidden.[15]

    Thus, the parallels have no real bearing on the purpose of his sacrifice. In fact, the opposite is closer to the truth. Although many things were fulfilled in the process of establishing the New Covenant, the parallels to base sacrifices of atonement and forgiveness are incidental. He didn’t die because he was a Passover sacrifice. He didn’t die because he was a scapegoat. He didn’t die as some random sin offering. God, declaring the end from the beginning, gave us the ritual of the scapegoat to show how Christ would one day be displayed with a criminal and be led out of town with the sins of the people. God gave us the example of the Passover to show how death would one day pass over those who are covered with the blood of Christ. God required the high priest to make a sacrifice to enter the holy of holies to show how Christ would one day sacrifice himself for that same honor.

    They are all examples of heavenly things, and not the very image of the things themselves.[16] Christ is the heavenly thing, and the law is paralleling his accomplishments, not the other way around. What he would one day do, the law reflects. It is the pattern and process by which he would do it that the law seeks to mimic.


    [1]. Jn. 1:29.

    [2]. Heb. 9:23.

    [3]. Jn. 1:1, 14; Heb. 10:1.

    [4]. Matt. 26:17-21; Mk. 14:12-18; Lk. 22:7-15. I do not mean to say that Christ died on the 14th day of the month according to the actual Passover ritual, but that he died during the general time of year in which the Passover festival occurred. The scriptures are clear that Jesus kept the Passover with his disciples. His crucifixion, therefore, took place on the following day, on the 15th.

    [5]. Jn. 12:1, 12; Jn. 19:32-36; Exod. 12:46; Num. 9:12; Ps. 34:20. Jesus arrived in Bethany six days before the Passover. The Passover was on the 14th day of the month (Exod. 12:6). Six days before that, counting inclusively in the manner of a first century Jew, he would have arrived in Bethany on the 9th day of the month. He then entered Jerusalem the next day, on the 10th day of the month, which was the day the lambs were chosen (Exod. 12:3).

    [6]. Jn. 19:31-37; Num. 9:12; Ps. 34:20.

    [7]. 1 Cor. 5:7.

    [8]. Lev. 16:2-6, 11, 15; Heb. 9:6-7, 11-12.

    [9]. Heb. 7:1-17.

    [10]. Lev. 16:2-6, 11, 15.

    [11]. Heb. 9:6-7, 11-12.

    [12]. Lev. 16:5, 7-10, 21-22.

    [13]. Bar (βαρ) is a prefix meaning “son of.” For interpretive comparison, see Jn. 1:42, 21:15-17 with Matt. 16:17. Peter is Simon, son of Jona, or Simon Barjona. Acts 4:36 also mentions Joses, who was surnamed Barnabas, which interprets as the son of consolation. Abba (αββα) means father. Thus, βαρ-αββα, is the son of the father, βαρ-αββας (Bar-Abbas).

    [14]. Talmud, Yoma 41b. It is taught in rabbinical tradition that, “he (the high priest) tied a tongue of crimson wool to the head of the goat that was to be sent away [the scapegoat].”

    [15]. Matt. 13:35; Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; 1 Cor. 2:7-8.

    [16]. Heb. 8:5, 10:1.
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Now who is being dishonest. Of course it is relevant, because it is ONLY the Pesakh lamb that can not have its bones broken and that happens on the 14th. Ask yourself WHEN did the angel pass over, it was not on the 15th/16th. It seems like anything, of which there are many things, that poke holes in your theory, you just discount and claim it does not matter.
     
  9. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sounds like you didn't bother to read the excerpt I posted for you. It's a valid position held by plenty of men of reputation. The parallel to the scapegoat demonstrates that fulfillment according to wooden literalism is unnecessary.
     
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    I read it. There are lots of people that have theories I disagree with :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    What are the sources of those quotes?
     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Copycat thesis is not taken as credible by scholars or Historians

    "In the second post from the link above, concerning the date of Saturnalia which is 14 or 16 days before the Kalends(A Festival in January). For Saturnalia to be December 25, or as the Romans would say Eight days before the Kalends of January. The author in those early posts uses primary sources. "

    In short, Saturnalia is off by about a week for it be on December 25th.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  13. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What quotes?
     
  14. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "First, the clause is this: καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν ἀζύμων

    τῇ is on the, as the definite article in the dative case, singular.
    πρώτῃ is first as a superlative. It means the very first, or first-most. It is in the dative case, singular.
    ἡμέρᾳ is day, in the dative case, singular.
    As a matter of case agreement in an inflected language, these three words go together. Because they go together, πρώτῃ, or first, is not a preposition expressing time (before), but an adjective modifying ἡμέρᾳ (day).

    τῶν is of the, as the definite article in the genitive case, plural.
    ἀζύμων is unleavened, in the genitive case, plural.
    These two words form a prepositional phrase to define what day the day in the first half of the clause is first-most of."
     
  15. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not a quote. It's what I wrote.
     
  16. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not sure what post you're responding to, but I agree. The Saturnalia was on December 17th (xvi k. Ian.), per CIL 1², Fasti Maffeiani, Amiternini, Philocali, 226, 245, 278. That's eight days before the 25th (9 days if you count inclusively).
     
  17. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    It was in this thread or another that tried to say Saturnalia was December 25th.

    How did you type the Greek Letters?

    What reference works do you recommend?

    When I show up on Secular Forums, my user name is "TheLearner" or some variation.

    Thanks,
    Daniel
     
  18. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Saturnalia is definitely December 17th. Not a point of dispute. Save the sources I cited on that. They are mostly epigraphs contemporary to the time period.

    If you are unable to convert your keyboard to Greek lettering, you can use the Character Map in System Tools. There is a section for Greek, and Greek Extended.

    If you mean reference works for Greek, I can suggest The Oxford Grammar of Classical Greek and New Testament Greek for Beginners. If you mean reference works to history and such, I'd suggest The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim, The Roman Revolution by Ronald Syme, and, with a grain of salt, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ by Emil Schürer, although Schürer borrows heavily from C. Idler (1600s) whose works were the predominant authority in major universities during the nineteenth century. It is especially dated material. Many conclusions have changed since Schürer's work was published, relative to new discoveries and more evincing arguments.
     
  19. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Well Said!
     
  20. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I appreciate the invite to the other thread. But without any real discussion of any kind, I've been baited and attacked, publicly and privately. From my observation and experience there, those people aren't interested in discussing or debating anything, except amongst themselves. And virtually every exchange I've witnessed has really been little more than anti-catholic / anti-church vitriol. Someone's wrong because they hold to the church's position. Someone's wrong because they aren't a Messianic Jew. Only a self published Jewish scholar has any credibility. If you're a non-Jew then you can't know as much as this Messianic Jew. No one was willing to discuss anything.

    So again, thanks for the invite. I was actually quite excited to have some meaningful discussion. I'll know better in the future not to attempt conversation with their sort.
     
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