Do you all accept biblical inerrancy/infallibility and why?

hedrick

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Hmmmm. Maybe you can explain what you perceive is my position, because your perception might be wrong. I don't see my proposal as weird in the slightest, so maybe you misunderstand my position or maybe I am so weird that I can't perceive my own weirdness LOL
You seemed to be suggesting that Christianity was validated by direct religious experience. If the goal is to figure out why Christianity in particular is right, or at least the best approach to life, I think we need something else.
 
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cloudyday2

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You seemed to be suggesting that Christianity was validated by direct religious experience. If the goal is to figure out why Christianity in particular is right, or at least the best approach to life, I think we need something else.
Maybe it depends on the nature of the religious experience. For example if a person's religious experience contains Christian concepts then it would lead most people to think that Christianity in particular is right. That is what happened to me. My experiences involved crosses and visions of Jesus and questions on salvation, so I assumed that these experiences implied a truth to Christianity. After years of thought I realized that Christianity simply could not be true, and my spiritual experiences had to be seen as imaginary or the work of a generic God who masquerades as each person's native God as needed.

I don't know if that clarifies my position? I don't see my suggestion as weird, but maybe it is weird.
 
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Rajni

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I did not make the call.

See what Scripture says - it is all in there. Timothy I think especially.
What you specifically said is not in the bible, and is a violation of
CF rules.




-
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What you specifically said is not in the bible, and is a violation of
CF rules.




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It is specifically in the Bible, and it is not against any rules.

And further, what is your 'interest' ? (specifically)

What do 'think' was said , compared to what the Bible clearly says ?

For anyone Christian, it seems odd and strange to me to take the position you do without foundation , or , what is your understanding of sinners who continue in sin without repentance, seeking to promote sin, instead of seeking Jesus ?
 
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Rajni

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After years of thought I realized that Christianity simply could not be true, and my spiritual experiences had to be seen as imaginary or the work of a generic God who masquerades as each person's native God as needed.
I'm of the belief that it would be the latter, God reaching out
to you through the paradigm to which you were accustomed.


-
 
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dlamberth

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You seemed to be suggesting that Christianity was validated by direct religious experience. If the goal is to figure out why Christianity in particular is right, or at least the best approach to life, I think we need something else.
I think validation by direct religious experience is exactly what God calls for.
 
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cloudyday2

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I'm of the belief that it would be the latter, God reaching out
to you through the paradigm to which you were accustomed.
I also keep an open mind to the possibility that I imagined things even though it would be less interesting than having mystical experiences. One puzzling thing is that some people have mystical experiences and other people don't. Is that because some people need a little extra help to steer them in the right direction and other people are doing fine without it?
 
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dlamberth

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Is that because some people need a little extra help to steer them in the right direction and other people are doing fine without it?
I think it has more to do with a persons own inner awareness of such things. For instance, Indigenous people are more open to the mystical, but they grow up experiencing life much different than Western thought. For instance, trees, grass and things of nature is experienced by them as a verb rather than a noun. That changes a persons whole paradigm. Where this comes into play is that we in the West in our duality and materialistic way of seeing things around us have a harder time being aware of the non-dual spiritual trajectory which is needed for mystical experiences.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I also keep an open mind to the possibility that I imagined things even though it would be less interesting than having mystical experiences. One puzzling thing is that some people have mystical experiences and other people don't. Is that because some people need a little extra help to steer them in the right direction and other people are doing fine without it?
Some people are warned, and some are protected by angels and prayers and Jesus from demons and from the devil.

The devil roams about like a lion seeking whom he may devour.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the ...
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Be sober and self-controlled. Be watchful. Your adversary the devil, walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Aramaic Bible in Plain English Be alert, be reflective, because your enemy Satan roars like a lion and is walking and seeking whom he may devour. GOD'S WORD® Translation Keep your mind clear, and be alert.

1 Peter 5:8 - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: AMP. Be sober [well balanced and self-disciplined], be alert and cautious at all times. That enemy of yours, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion [fiercely hungry], seeking someone to devour.
 
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Rajni

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I also keep an open mind to the possibility that I imagined things even though it would be less interesting than having mystical experiences. One puzzling thing is that some people have mystical experiences and other people don't. Is that because some people need a little extra help to steer them in the right direction and other people are doing fine without it?
True, there is always the possibility that something was
imagined. I try to keep that in mind, too.

Maybe it is a case of those who need it the most have
the experiences, I'm not sure. Kind of like the belief in
the existence of ghosts and the like: I believe they
exist, but have only had one in-my-face apparition
occur, back when I was a kid. Perhaps it's because
such entities know they don't need to jump through
hoops to convince me they're around. Or, kind of like
with regular eyesight, maybe my vision isn't adequate
enough to pick up on their presence on a regular basis.
Probably just as well; it would be too distracting.

I'm a big believer in synchronicities, as well, and have
experienced many of them. While I keep in mind that
they may be just my imagination, I also factor in
whether or not they involve components beyond my
direct control occurring simultaneously. From there, I
conclude whether or not it was just all in my head, or
something more than that.


-
 
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bekkilyn

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The current direction of this thread has reminded me of John 20:24-29:

But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”
 
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Rajni

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I think validation by direct religious experience is exactly what God calls for.
This makes sense.

If I were to believe things simply because that's what I
was told, or taught, then I'd be believing in unicorns
and flying elephants. I'd be believing in everything,
without having verified the validity or lack thereof.

Not that such things as flying elephants absolutely
don't exist, of course (especially of such concepts as
the multiverse theory are true). But it wouldn't make
sense for me to have an active, behavior-influencing
belief in them apart from having seen them, for myself,
first-hand. Gullibility isn't a virtue, and if it's presented
as such, well there's a problem....

-
 
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Robban

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This makes sense.

If I were to believe things simply because that's what I
was told, or taught, then I'd be believing in unicorns
and flying elephants. I'd be believing in everything,
without having verified the validity or lack thereof.

Not that such things as flying elephants absolutely
don't exist, of course (especially of such concepts as
the multiverse theory are true). But it wouldn't make
sense for me to have an active, behavior-influencing
belief in them apart from having seen them, for myself,
first-hand. Gullibility isn't a virtue, and if it's presented
as such, well there's a problem....

-

Of course there are flying elephants,


Jumbo jets.

:)
 
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dlamberth

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Why ?
Did anyone write this or say this or otherwise show you this ?
i.e. "God calls for"? Where ? When?
How else does God become a reality for a person other than direct experience?

I like this quote from Thomas Merton: "In silence God ceases to be an object and becomes an experience."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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How else does God become a reality for a person other than direct experience?

I like this quote from Thomas Merton: "In silence God ceases to be an object and becomes an experience."
Right.
Gotcha ....... did not see that meaning in the post I quoted but do now.


Likewise, false gods get their power over people that way - whoever or whatever people exalt, serve, worship, or obey, that is their god.
 
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cloudyday2

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I think it has more to do with a persons own inner awareness of such things. For instance, Indigenous people are more open to the mystical, but they grow up experiencing life much different than Western thought. For instance, trees, grass and things of nature is experienced by them as a verb rather than a noun. That changes a persons whole paradigm. Where this comes into play is that we in the West in our duality and materialistic way of seeing things around us have a harder time being aware of the non-dual spiritual trajectory which is needed for mystical experiences.
In one book I read, somebody said that Westerners have minds like machines and this inhibits their religious efforts. I am not certain what was meant, but I wonder if the assumption of cause-and-effect gives us minds like machines. We can't believe an experience unless we can posit a cause. Of course it seems to me that the human brain is hard-wired to look for cause-and-effect, so I don't know that this weakness is restricted to Westerners.

The noun and verb difference you mention is something I need to ponder. In the philosophy of pragmatism there is the maxim "Consider the practical effects of the objects of your conception. Then, your conception of those effects is the whole of your conception of the object." ( Pragmatism - Wikipedia )That is a little bit like turning a tree into a verb maybe. Not exactly I guess.
 
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cloudyday2

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The current direction of this thread has reminded me of John 20:24-29:

But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”

Thomas could either accept the hearsay evidence of Mary and others or he could hope to see the risen Jesus for himself. So Jesus seems to be saying "blessed are those who come to believe based on hearsay evidence". Notice how it is phrased though - "blessed" and "come to believe". The Christian doesn't "CHOOSE to believe" but "COMES to believe" as a result of special blessing bestowed by God.

There is also in the NT the concept of predestination. The belief comes as the Holy Spirit makes the first move. The Holy Spirit then reveals the Bible to be inspired and so forth.
 
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cloudyday2

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True, there is always the possibility that something was
imagined. I try to keep that in mind, too.

Maybe it is a case of those who need it the most have
the experiences, I'm not sure. Kind of like the belief in
the existence of ghosts and the like: I believe they
exist, but have only had one in-my-face apparition
occur, back when I was a kid. Perhaps it's because
such entities know they don't need to jump through
hoops to convince me they're around. Or, kind of like
with regular eyesight, maybe my vision isn't adequate
enough to pick up on their presence on a regular basis.
Probably just as well; it would be too distracting.

I'm a big believer in synchronicities, as well, and have
experienced many of them. While I keep in mind that
they may be just my imagination, I also factor in
whether or not they involve components beyond my
direct control occurring simultaneously. From there, I
conclude whether or not it was just all in my head, or
something more than that.


-
LOL, I experienced a possible synchronicity only a few days. The name of an obscure town where my grandparents lived kept coming-up in unlikely ways. For example, I was watching a DVD of "Gilligan's Island" episodes and the town was mentioned. I might go years without encountering that town's name normally, but it came up 2 or 3 times in a couple of days from odd sources. I don't know what it meant if anything. Maybe only coincidence I guess. I suppose it might be that our brains are programmed to look for patterns and search for reasons.
 
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cloudyday2

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For instance, trees, grass and things of nature is experienced by them as a verb rather than a noun. That changes a persons whole paradigm.
I was thinking it might be interesting to attempt to describe a tree using verbs.
Here are some verbs that come to mind:
- overshadowing
- reverse-breathing
- reaching for both heaven and hell
 
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