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Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Kylie, Jun 22, 2020.

  1. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,778
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Some questions...
    1. Do you agree that if you have a group of animals - say a herd of zebra - then each individual will be slightly different to the others?
    2. Do you agree that some of those differences can make it easier for that individual to survive - say, better eyesight so it has a better chance of spotting an approaching predator?
    3. Do you agree that these differences are due to the genes that the animals have?
    4. Do you agree that the genes that are responsible for these differences can be passed on to the offspring when that animal reproduces?
    5. Do you agree that if an animal has some genes that mean it has a difference that helps it survive, this animal is more likely to have more offspring precisely because these differences help it live longer (living longer means more chances to reproduce)?
    6. Do you agree that if animals with these helpful differences produce more offspring, then the number of animals in the herd that have this helpful difference will tend to increase over the generations?
    7. Do you agree that if we wait for enough generations to pass, most if not all animals in the herd will have this difference, and what was once different is now normal?
    If you think it's wrong, can you tell me which one exactly do you think is incorrect?
     
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  2. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

    +6,396
    United Kingdom
    Agnostic
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    Ah, if only this forum were a YEC free zone I could, as an intellectual exercise, challenge the thrust of your implicit argument with a neo-Lamarkian twist. :)
     
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  3. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

    +3,812
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    Not if there are identical twins.
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +3,394
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    While this is quite logical - outcomes are not always conforming to this postulation.

    Reasons for this are for example forces of nature in the ecosystem that may wipe out the strongest survivors.

    Outside the ecosystem of course are spiritual forces that can seriously interrupt the trend you describe as well.
     
  5. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

    +3,812
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    Well there are a lot of extinct species.
     
  6. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,778
    Australia
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    I am curious now...
     
  7. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,778
    Australia
    Atheist
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    Smart alec! ^_^^_^^_^
     
  8. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,778
    Australia
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    True, but such random forces are just as likely to wipe out those with beneficial differences as those without.

    And since there is no scientific evidence regarding spiritual forces, let's leave those out of this discussion, shall we? I'd like to keep this discussion about evolution, and not have it turn into a spiritual debate.
     
  9. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,778
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Many times, those species that go extinct seem to be those that aren't able to adapt well enough to keep up with changes, and they are outcompeted by species that have adapted well enough.
     
  10. CaspianSails

    CaspianSails Active Member

    473
    +255
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    Differences and genetic survival are not evolution. They are trait selection within species. Evolution requires, but its definition the emergence of new species. All animals experience change over time but it is not evolutionary change.
     
  11. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,549
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Most people will agree with evolution at the species level (many people identify "Biblical kind" with "genus"). It is only above the species level that you will get pushback.
     
  12. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +3,239
    Atheist
    Married
    UK-Labour
    I agree with all of the above.
     
  13. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +3,239
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    Which cone from the same zygote but are still slightly different to each other. My dad and his brother were monozygotic twins and were slightly (to me obviously so) different.
     
  14. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +3,239
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    Evolution does not ‘require’ the emergence of new species. New species is a consequence of evolution.
     
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  15. CaspianSails

    CaspianSails Active Member

    473
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    I would not even agree with the notion of evolution within species. Improvement, genetic selection, ok. But there is no evolution. A dog is a dog, a cat a cat, a mouse a mouse. They may have slight improvements that lead to a better and longer life but in the end it is not evolution. Not the evolution as Darwin taught.
     
  16. CaspianSails

    CaspianSails Active Member

    473
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    Darwin taught evolution required the emergence of new species. Whether it is emergence or consequence is of little difference. Evolution requires something new not merely an improvement within a species or change within a species. Some will present that as evolution but it is not within the meaning of evolution as taught by Darwinism. Improvement can be adaptation to change and it is not evolutionary.
     
  17. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

    +3,239
    Atheist
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    Dunno what you are trying to say.
     
  18. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

    +2,239
    Australia
    Atheist
    Single
    AU-Greens
    You are mistaken. Adaption and improvement are evolution.

    Over a long enough time scale humans studding the evidence for a slowly changing population will label one point one species and a later variation another species.

    Another way for this to happen is for the population to split into isolated groups so the slow changes/adaptations will be subtly different. Leading to the populations varying faster from each other then each is from the ancestral population. This is especially true if the pressures are different in the two environments.
     
  19. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +3,394
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    How then do you account for the victories of WW2 with Germany being superior in almost every measurable way - and the 6 day war with Israel being ridiculously outnumbered and under equipped.
     
  20. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

    +13,891
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    Suprisingly, that is not true. We still have creationists in this forum who deny the formation of new species. See the next post.
     
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