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Featured Do you affirm the fundamentals?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tallguy88, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Yes

    42 vote(s)
    67.7%
  2. No

    20 vote(s)
    32.3%
  1. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    Regardless of your denominational affiliation, do you affirm and believe the five so-called fundamentals?

    Here they are:

    1. That the Bible is inspired and without error.

    2. That Jesus Christ is God.

    3. That Jesus was born to a virgin.

    4. That Jesus died as a substitutionary atonement for our sins.

    5. That Jesus literally died, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and will return to earth.
     
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  2. badatusernames

    badatusernames Member

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    In the way that Fundementalists understand them? No.
     
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  3. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    Actually I do. I don't like the wording of number four but I'm able to track with all five. J. Gresham Machen and the other founders of the movement got some things right.
     
  4. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Do not agree with substitution atonement.
     
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  5. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Which bible? to number 1 and yes to the others.
     
  6. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    The original texts, which of course we can only approximate with textual criticism, as the originals are long since gone. But Biblical textual criticism is pretty solid stuff in working out what the original texts were. So I don't have to worry if I read the RSV Catholic Edition for example because I know it's actually close enough in almost every sense to the original texts.
     
  7. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    what if you believe in the fundamentals but they aren't the ones you list? for instance I believe in these fundamentals:
    And I believe in this fundamental as well:
    or here:
    those are the fundamentals I believe in. :wave:
    tulc(is just sayn') :sorry:
     
  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    We don't have the original texts, and then there's the protestant canon, the catholic canon, the eastern orthodox canon, and then the ethiopian orthodox canon all having different book numbers. So I believe the scripture to be inspired, but with the textual variants available I don't worry too much about it being without error, so long as God is without error, that's good enough for me.
     
  9. HereIStand

    HereIStand Regular Member Supporter

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    I do affirm all five. Good thread.
     
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  10. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    Even when it translates Isaiah as young woman, rather than virgin? That was a pretty big issue when it first came out. Or did the Catholic version fix that?
     
  11. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    Stick to the OP please
     
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  12. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    Whatever bible you like, as long as it's a solid translation. Or if you can read the original languages, that
     
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  13. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I think I'm too honest to say no errors, (textual variants giving different versions of verses) but definitely inspired by God. The original is in the spiritual realm anyway, so whenever a bible is opened up no matter how badly it is translated, God can speak through it.
     
  14. Paidiske

    Paidiske Bodily member Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Inspired, yes. "Without error" - if by that you mean literal readings of it trump complex understandings of science or critical readings of history - no. But without error in what it teaches us of God and salvation, yes.

    As one metaphor among a range of valid metaphors for salvation, yes.

    Yes to the rest.
     
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  15. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    What do you mean?
     
  16. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    I use the online version found at The Holy Bible. RSVCE most of the time.

    That has 'young woman' and there is an asterisk at that spot. But the notes are not included with this online version. Not ideal. But an adequate translation of the Hebrew 'almah' even if it misses the sense of the Septuagent 'parthenos' which I follow. This is a translation problem and not an issue with the Bible being inerrant. I tend to think the Septuagent captured something of the intent of the Hebrew text which doesn't otherwise carry over. There are lots of places where we wonder about meaning. Most of them are of very small consequence. This is bigger. But again, it's a translation issue, compounded by a suspicion that some translators translate out the miraculous.

    Ignatius Press has a RSVCE second edition which actually passed muster with the Vatican approving it as in accord with Liturgiam authenticam. I wonder how they translated Isaiah 7:14 there?
     
  17. Paidiske

    Paidiske Bodily member Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I mean that substitutionary atonement (which is a forensic-legal metaphor) is not a wrong way to talk about what Christ accomplished on the cross. But it's also not the only valid way to talk about it, and other ways might also be valuable. For example, redemption (which is a metaphor of buying a slave's freedom) is another way of talking about the same reality. There are many in Scripture; Christ as the victorious warrior who incorporates us into and leads us in victory procession is another; recapitulation is another, and so on. All of these look at the same reality from a different angle, and so allow us to appreciate it more fully.

    Basically I'm saying penal substitutionary atonement isn't wrong, but it's wrong to narrow our language and thinking around salvation to that one metaphor.
     
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  18. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    I've got an RSV-CE on the shelf at home, I'll have to check it when I get back
     
  19. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    Isn't that the primary way that St. Paul uses in his writings? I'm thinking Romans in particular. Not saying those other ways are wrong, just that they don't seem to get the "air time" as substitutionary atonement.
     
  20. Paidiske

    Paidiske Bodily member Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Paul has a really rich vocabulary of metaphors and images, and I don't see this one as predominating in his writing. It does seem to predominate in some Christian traditions, though.
     
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