Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

[HTacianas]

So, you do not believe that we are saved in the here and now? That salvation comes based on a judgment of works at the end?

It is clear from the bible and Christian history that we will be judged. Salvation is an ongoing process. It is something we find at the end of our lives.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is clear from the bible and Christian history that we will be judged. Salvation is an ongoing process. It is something we find at the end of our lives.

So in saying this you have declared the Atonement to be incomplete. Am I understanding you correctly?

Maybe there is a better way. What do you make of this scripture?

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[DamianWarS]

So if understand you correctly, you are saying that the Atonement is complete, but we are required to work to retain it. ???

In other words, you are saying that we can't earn it, but we must work to keep it. ???

How is this measured?
Are we graded on a curve, or PASS/FAIL?
Do we just need to try our best? How is that measured?
Could you have tried harder? (or course) Was it enough? (who knows?)

What is your take on our key scripture?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

it's irrefutable that the patron-client system was heavily a part of the roman system of that day and Paul using that word, in a letter addressed to the roman church, would immediently become a parallel to that system. Who was Paul's audience? the "haves" or the "have-nots", the patrons or the clients? because if its the latter their experience of "charisma" would be on the receiving end not the giving and would be intimately known. Paul does not go into detail about the reasons for using this word so it's left as a sort of contextual analogy and passing remark on salvation that we are to figure out as to how deep the meaning goes. However it is important because even as a pun on daily life this verse has become one of the key pieces of Christian doctrine.

We are not required to work for our salvation that much is true but we also must be careful not to make faith too abstract that it can only be intellectually conceived and that our actions don't contribute anything to what we believe.

 

[DamianWarS]

So, you do not believe that we are saved in the here and now? That salvation comes based on a judgment of works at the end?

We really only have a promise of salvation but we are not actually saved until we are saved. Salvation is often looked at as the goal of grace but it is not the goal it is a gift of grace, the goal is restored relationship with God.

 

[HTacianas]

So in saying this you have declared the Atonement to be incomplete. Am I understanding you correctly?

Maybe there is a better way. What do you make of this scripture?

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jesus also gives a lot of warnings along with that. I have no doubt that once a person accepts the sacrifice of Christ that person literally passes from death to life. Then after passing from death to life that person must "endure to the end". Those who, by keeping the commandments of Christ, "endure to the end shall be saved".

 

[joshua 1 9]

If you got a notice from your bank declaring that your mortgage was now paid in full, would you continue to make monthly house payments on the loan? Of course not.

If your house was paid in full would you quit cutting the grass and not fix the roof when it was leaking? Of course not, any sane person would do the best they can to take care of the house and maintain it.

 

[SolomonVII]

Works of righteousness are not about atonement or being saved or earning our way into heaven or knocking off a few years of purgatory from our sentence.
They are simply about Christians doing their best to follow Christ as our Way, to fight the temptations of sin through doing the right thing. Acts of righteousness should be seen as Christians trying to be good Christians,nothing more, nothing less.

There is no reasons to impute bad motives or bad theology when Christians behave like Christ does.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you got a notice from your bank declaring that your mortgage was now paid in full, would you continue to make monthly house payments on the loan? Of course not.

Yet this is how some treat the Atonement of Christ.
The price for our reconciliation has been paid in full, but they continue to pay and pay. Thinking that somehow they still owe on their debt. Thus declaring the Atonement for sin to be somehow incomplete.

Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Consider this scripture. (comments below)

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This scripture describes the one who understands that the Atonement is complete. The one who puts their trust in God, who justifies the ungodly. Their faith is credited as righteousness. To the one who does not work. (but trusts God)

The passage goes on to say this.

Romans 4:6-8
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Check out the context of this well known scripture. (posted below)

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are justified freely by his grace. This does not initiate a payment plan. It's a done deal. Paid in full. Yet some continue to pay. As if it is all on them now. Give it a rest.

Matthew 11:28-29
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

However, if a person gets into debt again, they have to take care of that debt. This would be by God’s grace in confessing our sins to Jesus (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1). But this is in view or context of forsaking sin along with that (See 1 John 1:7, also see: Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 and compare with Jonah 3:6-10). Otherwise it is just paying lip service with no remorse or change in one’s life. Christians do not have a license to sin and nor do they have diplomatic immunity to carry out murder, theft, adultery. Christians have to live by faith and not just have a belief alone in order to be saved. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

 

[PaulCyp1]

Salvation obviously cannot be purchased or "paid for". However accepting salvation is not just an emotional or mental act. It means living as God calls us to live, and that means behaving as He calls us to behave, in other words DOING what He calls us to DO. Which is why the Bible tells us it is not those who say "Lord, Lord" who will enter the Kingdom, but those who DO the will of the Father.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you got a notice from your bank declaring that your mortgage was now paid in full, would you continue to make monthly house payments on the loan? Of course not.

Yet this is how some treat the Atonement of Christ.
The price for our reconciliation has been paid in full, but they continue to pay and pay. Thinking that somehow they still owe on their debt. Thus declaring the Atonement for sin to be somehow incomplete.

Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Consider this scripture. (comments below)

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This scripture describes the one who understands that the Atonement is complete. The one who puts their trust in God, who justifies the ungodly. Their faith is credited as righteousness. To the one who does not work. (but trusts God)

The passage goes on to say this.

Romans 4:6-8
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Check out the context of this well known scripture. (posted below)

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are justified freely by his grace. This does not initiate a payment plan. It's a done deal. Paid in full. Yet some continue to pay. As if it is all on them now. Give it a rest.

Matthew 11:28-29
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Jesus talks about a house and salvation.

Jesus says,

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).

In other words, Jesus says that if we do not do what He says, we are like a fool who builds His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Let that sink in for a moment.

 

[woobadooba]

The only thing we should be concerned about is doing God's will.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

It is finished!
Jesus Christ paid in full.
Salvation doesn't make one sinless, but definitely helps one to sin less by the indwelling of The Holy Spirit and the conviction brought upon the one who receives the free gift of salvation by God's amazing grace.

All glory be to God now and forever.
Amen.
⚘

 

[Oldmantook]

If you got a notice from your bank declaring that your mortgage was now paid in full, would you continue to make monthly house payments on the loan? Of course not.

Yet this is how some treat the Atonement of Christ.
The price for our reconciliation has been paid in full, but they continue to pay and pay. Thinking that somehow they still owe on their debt. Thus declaring the Atonement for sin to be somehow incomplete.

Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Consider this scripture. (comments below)

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This scripture describes the one who understands that the Atonement is complete. The one who puts their trust in God, who justifies the ungodly. Their faith is credited as righteousness. To the one who does not work. (but trusts God)

The passage goes on to say this.

Romans 4:6-8
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Check out the context of this well known scripture. (posted below)

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are justified freely by his grace. This does not initiate a payment plan. It's a done deal. Paid in full. Yet some continue to pay. As if it is all on them now. Give it a rest.

Matthew 11:28-29
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Your illustration is inaccurate. A mortgage requires both a down payment AND subsequent monthly payments in order to be fully paid off. Jesus' atonement was the down payment. Our works of righteousness not done in our own strength and/or flesh, but rather out of obedience to the Word and Spirit constitute our obligatory payments.
Eph 1:14-16 states: "The Holy Spirit is the down payment on our inheritance, which is applied toward our redemption as God’s own people, resulting in the honor of God’s glory." (CEB)

Your citation of the Romans passages refer to works of the law which of course have no merit in one's salvation. This is the polar opposite of works of righteousness which we were created to do in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:10). You must be careful to distinguish between the two.

 

[Monna]

The work on the cross is complete. Jesus accomplished what he was sent to do. Forgiveness, reconciliation and restitution have been provided freely to us. God has given us everything we ever had that was good, including life itself. As such we are debtors who could not possibly repay the debt because we have nothing to pay with.
Jesus opened a door (the door out of Satan and sin's jaol) and set us free.

In my imagination I see a window between heaven and earth. This window is Jesus. When we try to look into heaven to see God, we see Jesus. When God looks at believers in Christ on earth, he sees Jesus. We have been clothed in righteousness, and Jesus is our righteousness. I think Isaiah's words apply to us:

Isaiah 61:10 (RSV)
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
my soul shall exult in my God;
for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
he has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Then I think of the state I'm really in, one of continued conflict between my old and new selves, and I realize that I have a long way to go before I fill this "robe of righteousness." Righteousness is something you DO, you PRACTICE. A person who does nothing cannot claim to be righteous. Faith also is an action word, in fact. It is one side of a coin - the other side is "obey." As in Trust and Obey.

God did not only free us from sin and death to go out and "be righteous" He has also prepared a program of activities and behaviours, and specific "works" for each of us, individually and as a Body as in:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by our works, we are saved FOR our (actually HIS) works. And we can only do them because of the atonement of Christ, and when we subsume our daily wills to his, letting Him act through us. Without Him we can do nothing. With Him, all things are possible! We have to start growing in the Lord so that we will eventually fit those robes of rigtheousness.

 

[Saint Steven]

it's irrefutable that the patron-client system was heavily a part of the roman system of that day and Paul using that word, in a letter addressed to the roman church, would immediently become a parallel to that system. Who was Paul's audience? the "haves" or the "have-nots", the patrons or the clients? because if its the latter their experience of "charisma" would be on the receiving end not the giving and would be intimately known. Paul does not go into detail about the reasons for using this word so it's left as a sort of contextual analogy and passing remark on salvation that we are to figure out as to how deep the meaning goes. However it is important because even as a pun on daily life this verse has become one of the key pieces of Christian doctrine.

We are not required to work for our salvation that much is true but we also must be careful not to make faith too abstract that it can only be intellectually conceived and that our actions don't contribute anything to what we believe.

So, does that mean that grace has "strings attached"? It's not really free?

 

[Saint Steven]

We really only have a promise of salvation but we are not actually saved until we are saved. Salvation is often looked at as the goal of grace but it is not the goal it is a gift of grace, the goal is restored relationship with God.

Are you saying that you are not saved?

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus also gives a lot of warnings along with that. I have no doubt that once a person accepts the sacrifice of Christ that person literally passes from death to life. Then after passing from death to life that person must "endure to the end". Those who, by keeping the commandments of Christ, "endure to the end shall be saved".

Thanks. But that is a misuse of that passage. IMHO
Jesus is talking about the end times scenario, not salvation.

Matthew 24:10-14
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Saint Steven]

If your house was paid in full would you quit cutting the grass and not fix the roof when it was leaking? Of course not, any sane person would do the best they can to take care of the house and maintain it.

So, you are claiming that the Atonement is not complete?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So, does that mean that grace has "strings attached"? It's not really free?

Hi Steve,

Are you saying that grace is a free license to sin and that OBEDIENCE to God's law as the fruit of faith does not matter? God's Grace is given us so that we can follow him by faith.

ROMANS 1:5 By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for his name.

ROAMNS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

ROMANS 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

ROMANS 6:1-2
[1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?

God's GRACE is for OBEDIENCE to the faith *ROMANS 1:5. It is not a license to sin. LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW is him and is the NEW COVENANT promise *ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12. Salvation is from sin not in sin *JOHN 8:31-36.

If any continue in sin they will die because they have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD.

 

[Saint Steven]

However, if a person gets into debt again, they have to take care of that debt. This would be by God’s grace in confessing our sins to Jesus (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1). But this is in view or context of forsaking sin along with that (See 1 John 1:7, also see: Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 and compare with Jonah 3:6-10). Otherwise it is just paying lip service with no remorse or change in one’s life. Christians do not have a license to sin and nor do they have diplomatic immunity to carry out murder, theft, adultery. Christians have to live by faith and not just have a belief alone in order to be saved. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

So, the Atonement is not in valid unless there is "remorse"?
How is that measured? Could you have been MORE remorseful? (sure) Were you remorseful enough then? (who can say?)