• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Sep 22, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not at all. Some of us actually believe what James 2:18 says in the fact that he will show you his faith by his works; And that without works, faith is dead (James 2:17). You need faith in order to access the saving grace of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). James even says that we are justified by works and not by faith (belief) alone (James 2:24).

    Works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11) are not the same thing as the works of the Law (Romans 9:32) (Galatians 2:16).
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    God does not change (Malachi 3:6) (James 1:17). God is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11). God is grieved by sin. That is why He destroyed the world with a global flood. God is holy and He hates sin. The death of Jesus does not pay the penalty for future rebellion done against Him. If such were the case, then God would have to agree with sin (And that is not possible). Only past sin that a person seeks forgiveness with God over can be forgiven. Salvation is based on our seeking mercy and not in trying to justify sin (Because God cannot agree with our thinking we can do evil with God rewarding us despite such evil). It doesn't work like that because God is holy and good. God upholds a standard of justice, morality, and goodness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Also, please re-read the passage in 2 Peter 2:5-6 again carefully. The global flood was an ensample (example) to ALL who would live ungodly thereafter. Peter is saying this under the New Testament. So this is a point for us. Why would Peter bring up this point if it did not apply to us? It makes no sense. Peter says that the global flood is an example to all who live ungodly thereafter. That would include us!!!
     
  4. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,424
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The point is that most of us aren’t keeping count of any works because we know that without Christ we can do nothing. So we all have good works and fruit.

    Your just keeping score so you can add what you do to what Christ has done to hopefully get yourself into heaven.

    It’s just a sad reflection of faith that you need to add your works onto what Christ has done, but I get it, your plan B.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I also believe that Christ works in the believer and it is not solely the believer doing the good work (John 15:5, Philippians 2:13, etc.). The problem is that you give yourself an out or an escape in saying that works of faith are not necessary to justify us despite James saying otherwise.

    Tell me: How do you believe James 2:24?
    Do you truly believe you are justified by works and not by faith alone?

    Paul condemned Works Alone Salvationism because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." I agree with him. Nobody can just do works to save themselves without God's grace. A person needs to first repent and accept Jesus in order to obey God. I believe both God's grace and works are necessary as a part of the salvation process. Why do I believe this? Because the Bible says that this is the case.

    "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

    Also, works of faith are merely a part of showing that we have a true saving faith and not a dead faith (that does not save - See again James 2:17).

    Actually, walking in the light (Abiding in God and keeping His commandments) is a part of the atonement (See 1 John 1:7).

    I did not write the Bible, if you have a problem with it, take it up with the Lord.
     
  6. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,424
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Your faith is lacking.

    It is clear.

    Romans 5:1-9
    1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him



    As I said, you are your own plan B if Jesus isn't enough.

    I don't need a plan B based on myself.
     
  7. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,424
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I think you need to take it up with the Lord, your faith is lacking not mine.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Whenever Paul is condemning the Law and talks about God's grace through faith, Paul is referring to the "Old Law" and "Law Alone Salvationism" because he is trying to fight against "Circumcision Salvationism." For if a person seeks to be circumcised, they are basically saying they are saved by Law Alone and that they are saved by the Law of Moses (Which is done away with contractually speaking. Note: This does not mean that certain laws like the Moral Law have not been repeated within the New Contract or New Covenant).

    How do we know Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism"?

    1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

    2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

    3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

    4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

    5. Ephesians 2:11-13 says, 11 “...Remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands) (NIV) 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. (NLT) 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.” (NLT)

    6. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

    7. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

    8. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

    9. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

    10. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”


    Other Verses:


    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not at all. You fail to explain the verses I put forth that demolishes your belief into smithereens.
     
  10. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,424
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Paul is not talking about the Law in Romans 5, He is talking about the New Covenant.

    So none of what you wrote is even relevant.

    Please address Romans 5 and 6
     
  11. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,424
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The problem with what you said is Romans 5 and what I wrote has nothing to do with the Law. Please stay on topic.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Paul refers to the problem of circumcision in Romans 3:1.
    In Romans 4:9-12, Paul makes another point about the unnecessity of circumcision again.
    This is the context.
    Now, is circumcision of the Old Law, or is it of the New Law?

    It's even more obvious in Galatians 5:2.
    Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Then in Galatians 5:4, Paul talks about how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. So the context of Galatians 5:4 is Galatians 5:2.

    Paul is arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism."
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

    +1,870
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Exactly. Thank you.
    Everything they claim leads to that conclusion. Not matter how much they dislike it.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Did you ever read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24? This is talking about the problem of "Circumcision Salvationism." You cannot read those verses and say that is not the topic of discussion. Paul also argued against "Circumcision Salvationism," too.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You cannot even explain the many verses that refutes your belief. I would say that is a glaring problem in what you believe, my friend. You are just choosing to hold on to a belief even when many Scriptures speak against that belief that you cannot explain. This to me is illogical because you have whole sections of the Bible condemning the kind of belief you hold to and you simply chock up as some kind of mystery or as if you don't care. I honestly could not do that on the chance that those verses could condemn me. I would want to be absolutely certain because my soul was on the line. I would make it my life's mission to know what those verses said. For if I was wrong, the consequences are too great. I would need to be certain. The question is, why are you not checking out these verses in what they truly say?
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

    +1,870
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    There is your problem again. Always swapping words out to make your doctrines work. If it says command, it means command. Not "the law".

    Just to be clear, "the law" is always in reference to the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses. Unless otherwise specified in the scripture.
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

    +1,870
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    So, you attempt to refute my word-changing charge against you with more word-changing? And then tell me to take it up with God? That's pretty funny.
     
  18. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,424
    Non-Denom
    Private
    That’s not Romans 5. Please stay on topic.

    I know you are going to try to distract with other doctrine and topics, “Oh Look, There’s a Squirrel!”

    Not falling for it.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +4,786
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Jesus says you cannot serve two masters, for you will hate the one and love the other.

    In other words, a person cannot serve the Lord and also serve their sin. For they will hate the one and love the other.

    Do folks here hate the Bible's version of Jesus that says we have to be faithful to Him in order to be a part of His Kingdom? I sure hope not.

    Side Note:

    Also, Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin.
    In other words, sin is their master.
    But Jesus says you cannot serve two masters.
    For you will hate the one and love the other.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

    +1,870
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    And we are still waiting for you to show us how Ephesians 2 harmonizes with your view. Does that make us even yet? Or are we still winning?

    Ephesians 2:4-9
    But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...