Do Wives Always Have to Say Yes to Sex?

[RDKirk]

According to the Word of God, one can refrain together during times of fasting. Otherwise, a spouse does not refuse the other. So there are not good reasons to be withholding intimacy. We are one flesh with our partner.

That's not necessarily just about sexual intercourse. If the woman wants an hour-long hot oil foot massage, the husband is obligated to give her one, even if the Superbowl is on in the other room.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's not necessarily just about sexual intercourse. If the woman wants an hour-long hot oil foot massage, the husband is obligated to give her one, even if the Superbowl is on in the other room.

No one has ever interpreted it in the odd way you want to. It has to do with physical intimacy (aka sex). However, I would never recommend turning your spouse down for a massage. I think you are looking for a way out of the obvious.

 

[RDKirk]

No one has ever interpreted it in the odd way you want to. It has to do with physical intimacy (aka sex). However, I would never recommend turning your spouse down for a massage. I think you are looking for a way out of the obvious.

The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband.

That's going to result in a lot of sex.

In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

That's going to result in a lot of foot massages.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

There's more to intimacy than sexual intercourse. Unfortunately many people don't get that.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

No, a wife does not always have to say yes to sex with her husband. If her husband strays because she says no, she can divorce him. Because he showed her that fidelity is not in his nature.

 

[Dave-W]

According to the Word of God, one can refrain together during times of fasting.

"Fasting?"

1 Cor 7.3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.​

No mention of "fasting." And in the discussion between rabbis Hillel and Shammai, who Paul is referencing here, there was no mention of fasting being a requirement. They were more concerned with the time. Hillel allowed for 1 week and Shammai for 2 weeks MAXIMUM.

But the important point was "mutual agreement." BOTH have to be in agreement.

 

[Dave-W]

The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband.
That's going to result in a lot of sex.

Actually, in the original culture, the other half of that sentence would result in more sex.

In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.
That's going to result in a lot of foot massages.

In Jewish culture, both then and now, Sex is a wife's right and a husband's responsibility.

Remember than ANY scripture addressing the topic comes from that perspective.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, in the original culture, the other half of that sentence would result in more sex.

In Jewish culture, both then and now, Sex is a wife's right and a husband's responsibility.

Remember than ANY scripture addressing the topic comes from that perspective.

A. I wasn't talking about the original culture.
B. In that culture, sex per se wasn't the wife's right, being given children--particularly males--to care for her in her old age was a wife's right.

 

[Dave-W]

A. I wasn't talking about the original culture

How can you evaluate something for our current age without starting at how it applied to the original audience?

B. In that culture, sex per se wasn't the wife's right, being given children--particularly males--to care for her in her old age was a wife's right.

Go read a few of the Ketubot (marriage contracts) from first century Judea. You will have a different opinion.

 

[Dave-W]

In that culture, sex per se wasn't the wife's right,

I am curious.

Why does the statement "Sex is a WIFE's right and a husband's responsibility" seem to cause such a stir?

The paragraphs in the ketubot concerning this were eventually published in the Mishnah and later the Talmuds. And it was a LOT more than for reproducing. If the husband was independently wealty, unemployed, or a shop keeper with little physical exertion, her sexual satisfaction was contractually mandated DAILY.

 

[Paidiske]

I am curious.

Why does the statement "Sex is a WIFE's right and a husband's responsibility" seem to cause such a stir?

I suspect because in our culture, we are so used to the dominant narrative being of men who want sex much more than their wives. The idea of a wife having to demand sex from a reluctant husband is so counter-cultural it's almost comic. (This is also related to dominant cultural ideas about women not wanting sex, or not being as easily aroused, and so on).

I know, of course, that there are some marriages where the wife's desire is much higher than the husband's and this is no less a problem than the other way around, but our society doesn't view that as "normal."

I suspect if we framed sex as a wife's right and a husband's responsibility, many men would be afraid that their needs would not be met.

Also, speaking for myself, I'd add that Jewish ideas and cultural norms are - and should be - irrelevant for Christians on this. We have our Scriptures telling us to love and serve one another, to meet one another's needs and desires, and ancient ketubot shouldn't come into it.

 

[Dave-W]

The idea of a wife having to demand sex from a reluctant husband is so counter-cultural it's almost comic. (This is also related to dominant cultural ideas about women not wanting sex, or not being as easily aroused, and so on).

I wonder if that is a result of western society's swallowing Dr Hippocrates' 400 bc statement that women have no sexual desires or feelings? European cultures have had that as gospel until about a century ago. But public attitudes change very slowly.

 

[RDKirk]

How can you evaluate something for our current age without starting at how it applied to the original audience?


Go read a few of the Ketubot (marriage contracts) from first century Judea. You will have a different opinion.

I don't seem to be able to find any English translations.

 

[RDKirk]

I am curious.

Why does the statement "Sex is a WIFE's right and a husband's responsibility" seem to cause such a stir?

The paragraphs in the ketubot concerning this were eventually published in the Mishnah and later the Talmuds. And it was a LOT more than for reproducing. If the husband was independently wealty, unemployed, or a shop keeper with little physical exertion, her sexual satisfaction was contractually mandated DAILY.

What you said there does not make the sex itself separate from reproduction.

 

[RDKirk]

The idea of a wife having to demand sex from a reluctant husband is so counter-cultural it's almost comic.

It's not just "our" culture. From my reading and discussion, it's also the case in at least India, China, and Japan. The issue isn't specifically that the man is reluctant to have sex, but that the man is reluctant to enter into it the same way.

 

[RDKirk]

No one has ever interpreted it in the odd way you want to. It has to do with physical intimacy (aka sex). However, I would never recommend turning your spouse down for a massage. I think you are looking for a way out of the obvious.

In my experience, "physical intimacy" for women is not so simply also known as sex. In my experience, women cherish a lot of physical intimacy without sex necessarily being involved.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't seem to be able to find any English translations.

As I said earlier, the gist of those contracts were condensed into the Mishnah, and later the Talmuds.

I am sure you can find an English version of the Mishnah. It is in Tractate Ketubot 61b.

Here is a bit of commentary on that passage:

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/190197/daf-yomi-123
Finally, in this week’s reading we learned how often a married Jewish couple should have sex. The answer, we read in Ketubot 61b, depends on the husband’s occupation: If his job keeps him away from home or is very physically demanding, he can have sex less often than if he lives a sedentary life. Thus “men of leisure” must have sex with their wives “every day,” while laborers do it twice a week, camel drivers once every 30 days, and sailors once every six months. Two things are remarkable about the Talmud’s treatment of this subject. The first is that sex is considered not as the husband’s right but as the wife’s: A man owes his wife sexual fulfillment, not vice versa. The second is that celibacy is not seen as a virtue, as it is in Christianity, but an evil to be avoided, so that a man is forbidden to vow to abstain from sex with his wife.

 

[Paidiske]

The issue isn't specifically that the man is reluctant to have sex, but that the man is reluctant to enter into it the same way.

Can you say a bit more about what you mean here?

 

[DavidFirth]

...

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I personally want to go back to investigating the Biblical support for wives getting massages. I get a ton of massages from my other half, but if I can get more and have biblical support for it then I’d like to keep it handy.