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Featured Do we have the ability to obey God's Commandments?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by redleghunter, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That’s a pretty broad brush. Let’s get specific. Is God in control in some way of every action of man?
     
  2. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, a murderer can't even pull the trigger without direct participation/enablement by God.
    ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ Acts 17:28

    We don't even exist without Him. But to say that God cannot grant man freedom within that relationship is to say that man is a morally unaccountable beast. No sense of justice, no right or reason for moral outrage or righteousness indignation over injustice.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Let’s not try to eat the elephant in one bite. :)

    Since God allows said murder to occur, is it then safe to say that there is purpose in that murder?
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I wasn't eating-that was an answer. :)
    Yes, there's purpose in allowing man's freedom-even if it results in evil. I already outlined that purpose.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Then if there’s purpose, even the evil that men do is because of His will.
     
  6. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Again, He wills that we have freedom, even if it means evil. We must separate God from the evil that man wills at some point, or else God is worse than satan; He'd be the direct, immediate cause of all evil in the world, and in the afterlife considering the evils experienced in hell, and man could not be considered culpable.
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Please explain how? I think sin is that we reject God. It is the result, not the reason.
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Without sin how would one reject God?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Adam essentially committed the sin of rejecting God, without sin preceding that act. All other sin flows from the separation from God that then resulted within humanity. "Apart from me you can do nothing" John 15:5.

    To the extent that we remain distant from God, sin is all the more likely to occur. As we begin to believe, sin is challenged. As we begin to hope in, and most importantly as we begin to love God, sin is all the more excluded. Sin can be said to be an act against faith, most certainly against love.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    We are children of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    Our very nature is sin leading to death.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    He wouldn’t be the direct immediate cause. He’s not putting the thought in the murderer’s head. But if He doesn’t stop it, there must be a reason beyond just giving man freedom. That would make Him worse than Satan because He is putting man above Himself.
     
  12. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    FWIW, the church, east and west, historically did not teach a "sin nature" being the result of the Fall. Rather the chief characteristic of the state known as Original Sin is considered to be spiritual death/separation from God. From the autonomy of man that resulted man was now apart from God, a disordered state within which man was unable to maintain self-mastery or control as morality now became relative to his own opinion.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Romans 5: NASB

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
  14. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Ok, but if your answer is that He wills it, then He's the direct immediate cause. Alternatively He wills the freedom, foresees it's outcome, and uses that for His own purposes. You can't have it both ways. He can certainly allow man's freedom to supercede His own, allowing evil to have its day for a time. Ultimately, when all things are accomplished, God's will will fully reign because creation has "agreed", finally aligning itself with His will, or choosing existence without Him instead, aka "hell". Here we choose, existing in a sort of halfway house between heaven and hell where both good and evil are experienced. Otherwise, what's to prevent God from willing evil in the future? Where would the difference lie?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If He doesn’t will it, then there’s sin which is out of His control.
     
  16. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    It's in His control because He allows it.
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    So then it’s part of His will.
     
  18. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    There is another quite large Christian forum
    where the administration believes that
    God is in control of everything.
    Where is man's free will in that sort of thinking?

    For example ...
    The Holy Spirit's conviction of sin in a person's
    life in no way tampers with his/her free will
    to go along with the Spirit.

    Like I can suggest something would be good for a
    person to do in no way tampers with his/her free will
    to do it or not to do it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Was that an answer to my question?
     
  20. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    To allow an act is not to say that He wills the particular act to happen. That, in fact, is the very place where man's freedom, where man's will, enters the picture.
     
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