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Featured Do we have the ability to obey God's Commandments?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by redleghunter, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The fact is Adam and Eve were created to either obey or disobey.

    It was your leading statement “God didn’t create us to sin” I addressed.

    Adam and Eve obviously had the capability to disobey. And they did. I did not mention anything about God wanting them to disobey.

    This is what I was answering:

    In which I responded “sin.”

    Perhaps I should have clearly stated that we all suffer from the one sin of Adam which was disobedience.
     
  2. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Ok? But then I'm really not sure what the purpose of your question was. Maybe you could explain the answer:
    Either way I think we agree, God did not create us to sin, only with the freedom to so do so. Sin was foreseen by Him, not caused by Him.
     
  3. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Or God created a being capable of rebellion for His own purposes. In which case man can freely make right or wrong choices and is responsible for those choices and God is responsible for creating the situation in which His righteous and sovereign commands can be disobeyed by His righteous and sovereign Will. As nothing can come into existence outside of the Will of God, and yet God's commands are disobeyed, I suggest that it is likely the case that God has a use for rebellion against his commands. Additionally I do not see rebellion against his commands as usurpation of God's sovereignty because I consider the likelihood that God's Will and God's commands may not be equivalent if it is God's Will that rebellion is an option for those He has given commands to. God's Will is tied to God's purpose for his creation and if God's purpose for creation requires the possibility of rebellion then I suspect that rebellion and redemption have always been God's Will and an important part of God's purpose for his creation.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Did God want the fall to happen?
     
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    We can't second-guess Him. He told A&E not to eat of the fruit. He'd be more than a bit hypocritical to command that, and want otherwise. The most we can say is that He foresaw the Fall, deemed it worthwhile to create anyway, knowing the beginning from the end, planning to use the Fall for His purposes of ultimately bringing an even greater good out of the evil that had occurred.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Could He have prevented it?
     
  7. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I prefer:

    "Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire"
     
  8. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Of course. But that doesn't mean that He directly willed it any more than He directly wills the torture and rape of a 5-yr old, which He could likewise prevent. If He does will those things, then His will is always done on earth as it is in heaven, and there'd be no reason to ask for that to happen. And, there'd be no guarantee that heaven should be any better than hell; God wouldn't be trustworthy anyway.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If He could have prevented it, yet didn’t, then there’s a purpose. Would you agree with that?
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, and I already mentioned the purpose. Lemonade out of lemons.
     
  11. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    If properly (Romans 7:14) understood, yes, it is required not to espouse any false beliefs concerning the dogmas of our faith as if round cuttings* of our heads, neither mar Christ's ethical teachings (beard) and therefore our actions (corners) with anything immoral.

    At least this is my interpretation given the measure of my limited understanding.

    ________
    * Greeks used to offer these as sacrifices to demons
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If there’s a purpose, there’s a will. So He wanted it to happen.
     
  13. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    So it's impossible for His will not to be done on earth? It's all the same? Good and evil are just terms and God approves and participates equally in one as He does the other?
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    His will is always done. If not, then He’s not sovereign.
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    He can sovereignly allow His will to be overridden, for man's freedom to hold sway. For now. Otherwise it would be absurd to pray for His will to be done , except for the possibility of it not being done. In fact, life would be pretty worthless in the long, eternal, run if not for the fact that He won't allow good and evil (opposition to His will) to coexist forever
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Is there a purpose in letting man have freedom?
     
  17. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Must be all about testing to see
    WHO will love God enough to obey Him.
    Jesus said 4 times in John 14,
    "Those who love Me, will obey My commandments."
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Anything to support that conclusion?
     
  19. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, Scripture screams from beginning to end that man has the obligation to love God. And that this is a choice, a matter of the will. And we come to understand through Christ that this obligation can become a desire-as we come to know the true God for ourselves. And so the will begins to be rectified, not without the help of grace. God draws us towards and into this right relationship-without coercion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  20. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Through freedom man fell. He touched the hot stove. Now we have the opportunity to experience-to know-both good and evil so that, with the help of revelation and grace we might begin to shun evil (hating it as God does) and develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness instead. And so to seek God. Or answer "yes" when He calls.

    This world has a purpose. God is perfecting His creation, with a plan that involves created beings coming to recognize their need for Him though hardship and struggle. Otherwise He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate to begin with and avoided all the ugliness this world has known from the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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