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Featured Do we have the ability to obey God's Commandments?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by redleghunter, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    I think people don't really listen to themselves sometimes. When someone says, "We must keep God's commandments!", they get "amens" from the peanut gallery. But really... the statement isn't telling us much of anything. Because if one truly believes this, they should be able to list exactly what laws we are to obey.

    So, I'm going to ask again. Because it becomes of grave importance if we are to believe we must keep "God's commandments".

    Exactly which commandments in the Law are we to obey?

    Can anyone list them?
     
  2. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    Here's one...

    Leviticus 19:27
    Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
    There are Orthodox Jews, Hasidic Jews, Conservative Jews, and various Christian sects like the Amish, Minnonite, and others who devoutly obey this law.

    Is this commandment... "required"?

    If so, why?

    If not, on what grounds is it not required?

    Am I to believe that if one shaves or trims the corners of their facial hair they do not love God? Or... does it somehow illustrate that they do not love their neighbor by showing their observance as a "witness"???

    When we begin discussing the necessity of obeying commandments, by necessity, we are negligent if we can't list them.

    So, Leviticus 19:27. Required or not?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Leviticus 19:17, we are instructed not to hate our neighbor in our heart. In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, and in John 14:15, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been about love, which is why the greatest two commandments are the greatest. People can certainly outwardly obey the law for motivations other than love, but then they would be missing the point, and wouldn't really be obeying it. If God's Law could be obeyed while our hearts were far from Him, then God would not have disdained it when His people tried to do that (Isaiah 29:13).

    There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalm 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given as instructions for how to express God's character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Jesus expressed these character traits through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when he is living in us. If the character traits of God do not characterize our obedience to God's instructions for how to express His character traits, then we are not obeying them correctly. If you agree that the rest of the laws are commentary on how to correctly love God and our neighbor, then you shouldn't try to diminish their importance.
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Here is a link to a list of the 613 commandments in the OT:

    The 613 Commandments (Mitzvot)

    Here is a link to a list of the 1,050 commandments of the NT:

    1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International



    In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, that if we do not love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that if the Father, so if we love Jesus, then we will obey the the Father's teachings.

    In Leviticus 19:27, the word used for "mar" means to destroy, devastate, harm, jeopardize, ravage, ruin, spoil, or waste, none of which are terms that I would use to describe getting a haircut. The action it describes is more akin to starting with a neatly trimmed hedge and hacking away at it haphazardly with a chainsaw than with starting with an overgrown hedge and making the sides nice and even. But yes, whatever this verse is referring to, it is required for followers of God to follow God.
     
  5. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    But that doesn't answer the question. Which are we to obey? Are we to stone sinners or advocate their execution?

    Should a suspicious and jealous husband have the authority to force his wife to undergo a trial by ordeal that would abort any fetus in her womb if she were unfaithful?

    Whose "interpretation" is that?

    Because I married into a Jewish family and all the rabbis I've spoken to (who actually spoke fluent Hebrew) defined it as they have practiced it since ancient times.

    Do I believe them, or someone who doesn't know enough Hebrew to ask directions to the restroom in a Jewish restaurant? LOL

    But, at any rate... based on your post... we can largely ignore Leviticus 19:27 unless we're wanting to.. shave with a chainsaw. So... we can pretty much scratch off one of the 613 commandments in the OT. lol

    Of course... many Jews, Amish, Mennonites, German Baptists, and others would disagree.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  6. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    I don't believe that the Law has been abolished. It still stands to condemn... sinners. It's ministry of death and condemnation is designed to bring the sinner to the understanding that they are worthy of death. And in so doing, point them to the one in which they might become hidden from the Law's condemnation... Jesus.

    Once one is born again, they are crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism. They are dead to the Law. They now live in accordance to Christ's commandments:

    1.) Love God.
    2.) Love others.

    If one were to focus entirely on loving God and loving others... what commandment in the Law would they risk breaking?
     
  7. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    Many commandments in the Law are focused on the Sabbath. Which Sabbath laws must be obeyed today?

    P.S.
    These posts are not meant to be argumentative. I'm illustrating something for the sake of the readers. ;)
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    How did that work out for Israel?
     
  9. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    According to the movie, he was.
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The simple New Covenant truth: man needs God, communion with God, in order to be righteous or just, in order to be who he was created to be IOW. God doesn't command man to do anything that man is incapable of doing, let alone blame him for failing. Rather God commands man to do what he can do, but man can do nothing apart from God (John 15:5). This is so because communion with God and subjugation to Him is the right order of things for man, fully consummated to the extent that man loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is where our justice lies.

    So the first step in justifying man is for man to know God, so he may believe in, hope in, and ultimately love Him. Jesus came to accomplish this very thing, to reconcile man with God by restoring the "knowledge of God" that was lost at the Fall, revealing His true face. Now we have something real to believe in. Now He can do a work in us.
     
  11. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it depends on which commandments you are referring to?
     
  12. JAYPT

    JAYPT Active Member

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    Grace makes us obedient.

    Titus 2:11-12
     
  13. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Having the ability to do a thing and having the desire to do that thing are not equivalent ideas.
    Having the desire to do a thing and the ability to do the thing sometime coincide and sometimes do not. Certainly the two given that command did obey it until they did not. Therefore they had the ability and desire to do so while they did so. AFAIK there was no mention in the OT of whether or not anyone was able to fulfil the letter of the law. Job comes to mind as a possibility but i cannot vouch for him in that point. There were many during the time of Jesus that considered themselves to have accomplished that. Including Saul. Fulfilling the letter of the law in one's own mind, however, can become a game of rationalization where one finds enough loopholes to satisfy one's self.
    God's Grace is His unearned love and forgiveness. It does not change one's nature. Without it, one is a doomed lost sheep; with it, one is a redeemed found sheep . Nonetheless one remains a sheep and a sheep is still a sheep a with the nature of a sheep.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    What would be the reason why we could not obey God’s commandments?
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Jesus ups the standards for what constitutes obedience in Matt 5:
    “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment."

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    That seems to be the conundrum.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Sin.
     
  18. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    And yet God didn't create us to sin.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The first commandment was don’t eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

    They failed. Explain that.

    After that all are children of the ToKoG&E
     
  20. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    We'll, we'd be left to explain whether or not God wanted them to eat of the fruit, after expressly commanding them not to. Either man can freely make right or wrong choices, in which case he's morally responsible for his actions, or God made him do it, and He's therefore directly responsible for every one of the most atrocious acts of evil this world has known.
     
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