Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[Brother Chris]

I look at it as >>> Out of all that should and would perish, out of mercy he set aside some

That's it plain and simple. God doesn't choose who's going to hell, people make that choice when the deliberately reject Christ. Unless the grace of God would have fallen on us who are saved, we would deliberately reject Christ and choose hell ourselves. When people end up in hell, it's their fault. When people are saved, God gets all the credit.

 

[Viren]

Your previous post implied that you did. Sorry for the misunderstanding

That's okay. I know it looks like I do. I don't believe all will be save for sure nor do I believe some are definitely going to hell. It can be implied some are going to hell for sure, but where in the Bible does it actually say that?

 

[oworm]

That's okay. I know it looks like I do. I don't believe all will be save for sure nor do I believe some are definitely going to hell. It can be implied some are going to hell for sure, but where in the Bible does it actually say that?

Proverbs 16:4
Romans 9
2 Peter 3:7
Acts 1:16

 

[dewba]

God created and then gave Adam and Eve ONE command: to obey whatever God commanded.

Everyone on this planet has the FREEDOM to obey or disobey...that's it. There is STILL only one command: to obey; knock and the door SHALL be opened to you (Mtt 7:7).

God has a time and a purpose for everyone and everything so the only command is for YOU to seek God. Once that has happened, everything else will be added BY God. After you have found the kingdom of God, you COULD in essence just SIT in one place for the rest of your life and God would send everything to you...

We choose to obey/seek; God adds the rest.

YOU can't force anyone to believe and listen to the Truth, unless God has allowed them to believe and listen because it's their time/your time to teach. It's beautiful...one doesn't have to feel anxious about anyone's salvation or ANYTHING because everything is done in God's time.

 

[Viren]

Romans 9
2 Peter 3:7
Acts 1:16

Is this the verse in Romans 9?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

Notice it says "what if" which means it's hypothetical.

 

[dewba]

So it's both. If we couldn't choose, God wouldn't have given the command to choose obedience and eternal life or not. But GOD chose for EVE to give into temptation FIRST. they both had equal opportunity without God's will/purpose

 

[oworm]

Is this the verse in Romans 9?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

Notice it says "what if" which means it's hypothetical.

I'll read through the others too.

Romans 9 isn't a hypothesis. If it is then the objects that are prepared in advance for glory are also included in the hypothesis.
Its not hypothesis in a conjectural sense. What if is used in a supposed sense.There is no conjecture in Paul's words. it is statements of fact.

 

[dewba]

If we choose God:
this would presuppose some kind of free will and all the arguments that entail

If God chooses us:
can we really be held accountable?

Relax; it seems God has decided for you to start seeking or you wouldn't be asking questions....you'd be flat out saying "no no and no" and be continuing on your way without questioning/seeking/giving God or the bible a second thought.

 

[Viren]

Proverbs 16:4
Romans 9
2 Peter 3:7
Acts 1:16

Okay I read 2 Peter 3

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 2Peter 3:7

Where does it say there will definitely be ungodly present for destruction?

Also, 2 verses later it talks about God waiting patiently not wanting anyone to perish. If he's waiting so patiently isn't it atleast possible that none will?

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

 

[oworm]

Okay I read 2 Peter 3

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 2Peter 3:7

Where does it say there will definitely be ungodly present for destruction?

Also, 2 verses later it talks about God waiting patiently not wanting anyone to perish. If he's waiting so patiently isn't it atleast possible that none will?

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

the emphsis in bold should provide the clue

 

[Viren]

the emphsis in bold should provide the clue

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What about this bolded part though?

 

[Terrence Theodore]

i believe its clear from scripture that God chooses people, and that his choosing of people results in those persons following him. think of, for example, abraham, david, john the baptist, the 12 apostles (even the one chosen after judas died), etc. all mentioned persons were chosen by God, and as a result lived for God (except judas, who was chosen to be the betrayer of Jesus).

apart from the grace of God in choosing sinners to follow him, we read, "there is none that seeks for God" (Rom 3:11).

 

[oworm]

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What about this bolded part though?

Heres another clue

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Context is King

 

[Viren]

Heres another clue




Context is King

Interesting.

 

[Viren]

So then I take it God is not warm & fuzzy

I don't think mercy is a weakness. Who are we to put limits on God's?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

The man turns to God and it is God turning to Himself through the man. Men shouldn't take credit as if they were the source. I found this helpful to my study into the issue. The author isn't Christian but it relates to the teachings of Christ and this debate:

The question of human effort in relation to the arising of dispassion, leading to divine grace, which in turn leads to the 'path' of liberation, has always been a puzzling one. The Masters say that without human effort nothing can be achieved. But at the same time they tell us that what is destined to happen will happen. Is there any use in prayer or effort? Should we just remain idle?

What is actually meant by those apparently contradictory statements by the Masters is that it is the feeling 'I do' that is the hindrance. If you are destined to do, you will not be able to avoid it- somehow you will be forced to do. It is really not your choice wheteher to to do or not because the individual as such does not have the independence or autonomy to have volition.

This is the point behind the apparent contradiction that the Masters seem to teach predestination in theory but free will in practice.What constitutes bondage or hindrance to enlightenment is not effort but the sense of doership.This also explains the affirmation by Christ that not even a sparrow can fall without the will of God, and that the very hairs on one's head are numbered.

The Koran affirms that all power, all knowledge, all Grace, are with God and that 'He leads aright whom He will and leads astray whom He will.' And yet both Christ and the Koran exhort men to right effort. Perhaps this puzzle would resolve itself when it is is seen in the perspective of the totality of functioning proceeding to unfold the play of the Grand Design.So long as a person considers effort as his personal effort, with the purpose of achieving something, he is rejecting the all-mightiness of the Almighty. So long as a person wants something from the Almighty, he is rejecting the fact of the 'Thy will be done.' True love of God means surrender to Him, wanting nothing, not even salvation







And also here:The question of individual volition and personal effort is extremely subtle and difficult to understand. And yet it is absolutely necessary not only to understand it intellectually but to absorb it in our very being. Difficulty arises because most Masters seem to have taught predestination in theory but free will in practice! Jesus Christ affirmed that the very hairs on one's head are numbered. And the Koran very definitely affirms that all knowledge and power are with God and that He leads aright whom He will and leads astray whom He will. And yet, both Christ and the Koran exhort men to right effort and condemn sin. The apparent contridcition would easily be solved if one kept in mind the concept of spiritual evolution mentioned above. The absolute illusionarity of the individual human being- and his so called effort (pourasha)- will be quickly understood by the one who is on the very brim of enlightenment, whereas someone who is much lower in the scale will more eaisly accept the concept of effort, determination and concentration. The one whose beeja (seed) is basically action-oriented will tend toward Karma Yoga because he is what is known as the 'somatotonic' type, whereas the 'cerebrotonic' will at once grasp with delight the principle of non-effort and non-duality without the least danger of misunderstanding. It is undoubtedly because of this inherent and basic difference between the different types o human being- at different locations in the conceptual evolutionary scale- that the Masters have specifically enjoined that the esoteric teaching of non-duality should not be preached 'in a public place.' There, there would be the distinct possibility of the teaching not only being not understood, but being misunderstood.

From "The Wisdom of Balsekar, the Essence of Enlightenment from the World Leading Teacher of Advaita"

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Obviously that is only one way of reconciling the apparent paradox and I don't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon with it. I think it might put a different spin on a debate that can often get a little stale due to repetition of the exact same arguments coming from two perspectives that have been battling for generations though. A fresh way to look at it.

 

[Skala]

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

What about this bolded part though?

You gotta read it on context my friend, don't just pluck it away in isolation and draw conclusions

Read the previous 8 verses to find out who the "you" is? Who is God patient towards? Verse 9 says he is patient towards "you", but who is the "you"?

The previous 8 verses answer the question. Follow the pronouns back to the beginning.


2Pe 3:1-8
(1) This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
(2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
(3) knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
(4) They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
(5) For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
(6) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
(7) But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
(8) But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Verse 1 says that this is the second letter Peter has written to this group of people called "the beloved". It is this group of people that "God is patient towards, not willing that any perish, but all to reach repentance"

So lets look at the first letter Peter wrote and see who he addresses the letter(s) to:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter is writing to God's elect. He tells them scoffers will come, questioning the Lord's return. But Peter says God is patiently waiting for all of His elect to reach repentance. That's why he delays Christ's return. God will lose none of his sheep, every single person that God will save, will be saved, and then Christ will return. God is not willing to lose any of His elect.

 

[oworm]

You gotta read it on context my friend, don't just pluck it away in isolation and draw conclusions

Read the previous 8 verses to find out who the "you" is? Who is God patient towards? Verse 9 says he is patient towards "you", but who is the "you"?

The previous 8 verses answer the question. Follow the pronouns back to the beginning.


2Pe 3:1-8
(1) This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
(2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
(3) knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
(4) They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
(5) For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
(6) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
(7) But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
(8) But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Verse 1 says that this is the second letter Peter has written to this group of people called "the beloved". It is this group of people that "God is patient towards, not willing that any perish, but all to reach repentance"

So lets look at the first letter Peter wrote and see who he addresses the letter(s) to:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter is writing to God's elect. He tells them scoffers will come, questioning the Lord's return. But Peter says God is patiently waiting for all of His elect to reach repentance. That's why he delays Christ's return. God will lose none of his sheep, every single person that God will save, will be saved, and then Christ will return. God is not willing to lose any of His elect.

Like I said...........Context is King

 

[Viren]

Out of the fallen race, God decides to make some men as vessels of wrath, others as vessels of mercy, both to display his power, mercy, and overall glory.


Rom 9:15-23
(21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

The bottom line: God is free to have mercy on whoever He wants, because all men are criminals and God is not obligated to show mercy on a single one of them. He would be perfectly fair and just to condemn th entire human race for their sins, thus, he is perfectly fair and just in deciding to save many men of the human race, but not the rest.

Nobody receives injustice at God's hands, but everyone receives either undeserved grace and mercy, or justice for their sins.

When it says "the same lump" it means the same person. Everyone is born as objects of wrath and atleast some are born again as objects of mercy. The object of wrath is the sinful nature and object of mercy is the spirit.

This verse explains it.
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord 1 Corithians 5:5