Do United Methodist Believe Once You're Saved You're Always Saved?

Basil the Great

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I do not believe that there is an official Church UMC position on the issue. My guess is that a fair number of pastors in the South would answer "yes", though probably still a minority. I suspect that most ministers in the North would say "no". The UMC does not take as many strict doctrinal positions as some denominations. Hence, both clergy and lay members are free to believe many different things. I have not been a UMC member for several decades, so someone feel free to give a different view on the matter.
 
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bekkilyn

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actionsub

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There are two sources for official UMC doctrine: The Articles of Faith of the Methodist Church, which are quite vague on the subject, and John Wesley's collected sermons.
In sermon XV, "The Lord Our Righteousness", he makes the following statement: "Even he that now standeth fast in the grace of God, in the faith that overcometh the world, may nevertheless fall into inward sin, and thereby 'make shipwreck of his faith'."
Wesley follows this with a later article he wrote on "Perseverance of the Saints", where he states more explicitly:
"Can any of these fall away? By falling away, we mean, not barely falling into sin. This, it is granted, they may. But can they fall totally? Can any of these so fall from God as to perish everlastingly?

I am sensible either side of this question is attended with great difficulties, such as reason alone could never remove. Therefore "to the law and to the testimony." Let the living oracles decide; and if these speak for us, we neither seek nor want farther witness.

On this authority, I believe a saint may fall away; that one who is holy or righteous in the judgement of God himself may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly." (eternal security - Perseverance - John Wesley)
 
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Methodized

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I do not believe that there is an official Church UMC position on the issue. My guess is that a fair number of pastors in the South would answer "yes", though probably still a minority. I suspect that most ministers in the North would say "no". The UMC does not take as many strict doctrinal positions as some denominations. Hence, both clergy and lay members are free to believe many different things. I have not been a UMC member for several decades, so someone feel free to give a different view on the matter.

Oh no, there is! Wesleyan doctrine teaches us the possibility of apostasy. Once saved always saved is a form of predestination, which is contrary to Wesley's teaching. We don't look our free will when we become Christians.
 
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Basil the Great

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Oh no, there is! Wesleyan doctrine teaches us the possibility of apostasy. Once saved always saved is a form of predestination, which is contrary to Wesley's teaching. We don't look our free will when we become Christians.
Yes, I know that such was Wesley's position, but does the UMC actually teach such as an official doctrine? I doubt so.
 
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Methodized

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Yes, I know that such was Wesley's position, but does the UMC actually teach such as an official doctrine? I doubt so.

As a member of the Board or Ordained Ministry, you better believe it is taught as official doctrine. Someone who brought a predestinarian theology to the board examinations could have a hard time getting past the doctrine and theology exam.
 
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Basil the Great

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As a member of the Board or Ordained Ministry, you better believe it is taught as official doctrine. Someone who brought a predestinarian theology to the board examinations could have a hard time getting past the doctrine and theology exam.
I stand corrected.
 
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BobRyan

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Oh no, there is! Wesleyan doctrine teaches us the possibility of apostasy. Once saved always saved is a form of predestination, which is contrary to Wesley's teaching. We don't look our free will when we become Christians.

This is what I always assumed the Methodist position was - so I am a little surprised to find Methodists in the South now and then who say they believe in OSAS - I can't understand how this is so. I thought that free will, individual responsibility etc - was a major theme in Methodist doctrine ...

It would be like having some Baptists say they don't believe in believer's baptism.

As a member of the Board or Ordained Ministry, you better believe it is taught as official doctrine. Someone who brought a predestinarian theology to the board examinations could have a hard time getting past the doctrine and theology exam.

Now "that" is more like it.
 
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Methodized

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This is what I always assumed the Methodist position was - so I am a little surprised to find Methodists in the South now and then who say they believe in OSAS - I can't understand how this is so. I thought that free will, individual responsibility etc - was a major theme in Methodist doctrine ...

It would be like having some Baptists say they don't believe in believer's baptism.

I'm afraid that in the south some Baptist theology has infiltrated Methodist congregations. United Methodists generally make it pretty easy to join a church. And while we hold our clergy to specific theological standards, you might notice that the vows of membership for lay people don't ask them if they support any particular theological teachings of the Church. I kind of think that is a mistake honestly.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm afraid that in the south some Baptist theology has infiltrated Methodist congregations. United Methodists generally make it pretty easy to join a church. And while we hold our clergy to specific theological standards, you might notice that the vows of membership for lay people don't ask them if they support any particular theological teachings of the Church. I kind of think that is a mistake honestly.

I strongly agree. The more amorphous a group becomes so as to get the maximum amount of people to join - the less their distinctive beliefs are known much less held by the group members. The more the question is raise "so then why are we even a separate denomination? Why do we exist?"
 
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Methodized

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I strongly agree. The more amorphous a group becomes so as to get the maximum amount of people to join - the less their distinctive beliefs are known much less held by the group members. The more the question is raise "so then why are we even a separate denomination? Why do we exist?"

Yes, and it then takes away the real selling point of being a Methodist. John Wesley and early Methodists taught a pretty distinctive set of views about God's grace which have been the focal point of Methodist theology. If you don't have that, why be a Methodist?

I have actually had congregants tell me in churches I have been appointed to that when I used the term "prevenient grace" it was the first time they'd ever heard it. Now, if they didn't attend our confirmation classes and are from outside the UMC you can excuse them not growing up with the terminology. But, what were previous pastors preaching (or not preaching) for them not to know basic Methodist teachings about grace??
 
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bekkilyn

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Yes, and it then takes away the real selling point of being a Methodist. John Wesley and early Methodists taught a pretty distinctive set of views about God's grace which have been the focal point of Methodist theology. If you don't have that, why be a Methodist?

I have actually had congregants tell me in churches I have been appointed to that when I used the term "prevenient grace" it was the first time they'd ever heard it. Now, if they didn't attend our confirmation classes and are from outside the UMC you can excuse them not growing up with the terminology. But, what were previous pastors preaching (or not preaching) for them not to know basic Methodist teachings about grace??

I've had similar experiences.
 
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Rawtheran

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The title sums up the whole discussion topic.

I was wondering if the United Methodist Church teaches that you could lose your salvation or if they believe it is always secure no matter what.
You would be very hardpressed to find a UMC, COTN, or Wesleyan denomination stating that they believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security although speaking from experience in the Church of the Nazarene in which I'm a District Licensed Minister I've never once heard of a District board ever directly asking Candidates what their official position is regarding OSAS but there are a few Pastors and many lay people who have joined from other denominations that believe in it. Actually there are quite a number of Arminians who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security.
 
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Methodized

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Actually there are quite a number of Arminians who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security.

I don't understand that? By definition wouldn't that preclude you from being an Arminian as Eternal Security violates the 5th Remonstration of Arminianism and the concept of free will?
 
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Rawtheran

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I don't understand that? By definition wouldn't that preclude you from being an Arminian as Eternal Security violates the 5th Remonstration of Arminianism and the concept of free will?
That's a rather simplistic view of Arminian theology because actually it can be quite vast among the different denominations and there is certainly huge differences at times between Wesleyan Arminianism and Classical Arminianism. For example, Arminius believed that if someone were to actually fall away from salvation then there was absolutely no way for them to ever return to God's grace they were lost permanently. John Wesley disagreed with this viewpoint and believed that if someone truly had chosen to walk away from God then it was always possible for them to return. By this logic was John Wesley truly an Arminian when his views also violate the 5th Remonstration of Classical Arminianism? Also something I would add is that Arminius himself was not resolute on the belief that someone can lose their salvation he only saw it as a possibility:
My sentiments respecting the perseverance of the Saints are, that those persons who have been grafted into Christ by true faith, and have thus been made partakers of his life-giving Spirit, possess sufficient powers to…gain the victory over those enemies–yet not without the assistance of the grace of the same Holy Spirit…So that it is not possible for them, by any of the cunning craftiness or power of Satan, to be either seduced or dragged out of the hands of Christ. But I think it is useful and will be quite necessary in our first convention, to institute a diligent enquiry from the Scriptures, whether it is not possible for some individuals through negligence to desert the commencement of their existence in Christ, to cleave again to the present evil world, to decline from the sound doctrine which was once delivered to them, to lose a good conscience, and to cause Divine grace to be ineffectual.

Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of Scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. (The Writings of James Arminius)
 
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Methodized

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That's a rather simplistic view of Arminian theology

I am not suggesting there aren't variations in Arminian theology. But if you read the passage carefully that you posted, Arminius seems to be talking about people who are tempted away, etc. There is nothing in Arminianism that suggests a person can't just decide they don't want to be a believer anymore. (And note, I'm also not suggesting that Arminianism now means you always have to agree with Arminius.)

"Once saved always saved" is an absolutist view of "Perseverance of the Saints." Once you are a Christian you can't get out. Your will is apparently captivated and you can't deny Christ if you want to. Worse, it allows people to live like the Devil with no faith at all and be guaranteed salvation just because of a previous profession of faith they declare they themselves may no longer belief in. And that guarantee encourages them not to repent because they don't need to as they can't fall away.

It's the nose of Calvinism pushed under the tent of Arminianism.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm afraid that in the south some Baptist theology has infiltrated Methodist congregations. United Methodists generally make it pretty easy to join a church. And while we hold our clergy to specific theological standards, you might notice that the vows of membership for lay people don't ask them if they support any particular theological teachings of the Church. I kind of think that is a mistake honestly.

Are you referring to the so called “Methobaptists”?
 
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You would be very hardpressed to find a UMC, COTN, or Wesleyan denomination stating that they believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security although speaking from experience in the Church of the Nazarene in which I'm a District Licensed Minister I've never once heard of a District board ever directly asking Candidates what their official position is regarding OSAS but there are a few Pastors and many lay people who have joined from other denominations that believe in it. Actually there are quite a number of Arminians who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security.

There is a Church of the Nazarene which is in the process of being planted which intends to use Wesley’s Sunday Service Book, and its in Kentucky or Indiana, which is in range of a church I have been offered a job at, which excites me as I would love to visit it on my days off.
 
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