Do this with me please... Forget everything you know and put your thinking caps on OK...?

[Neogaia777]

We at least were like God at our creation. And have the potential to be still. To ignore this when thinking about humanity in relation to God is to ignore the nobility and dignity with which the human being was bestowed by its Creator.

You are the one suggesting that God can be like a human, or human being, and I'm just asking you, very seriously, as I myself don't know, if you think "this One" in the OP is or not...?

Regardless, my point was that you either believe that Scripture is revealed truth or not.

I do.

And if it is, why would you want to disregard it when thinking about such questions and instead rely only on your imagination?

It's not imagination, not my imagination anyway, either... I just want people to apply logic and reason to this, just for a minute only, and a minute only, and, again, I didn't say forget scripture, I said forget all that you know, just for a minute only, only for objectivity, then come back and apply it to what you know... It's the only way to get "outside of the box" if only for a minute, to expand your horizon's and raise your thinking for a bit...

Your acting as if logic and reason is evil when it is not... And getting outside of the box for a minute and applying logic and reason is wrong or evil, when it is not...

I don't know if you read post #8, but you might want to...

God Bless!

 

[-Sasha-]

Well, no, obviously. We were created as finite creatures, in time, neither omniscient, nor omnipresent, nor omnipotent.

No doubt you meant something else?



We're 100% in agreement there.

What I meant is that according to Genesis we were created in the likeness of God. Humanity is somehow like God, and if that is true, we can know something about God by knowing humanity. And according to Christ's words in the NT, we can become one with God "even as We (Christ and the Father) are one". Humanity and Divinity are compatible.

 

[-Sasha-]

You are the one suggesting that God can be like a human, or human being, and I'm just asking you, very seriously, as I myself don't know, if you think "this One" in the OP is or not...?



I do.



It's not imagination, not my imagination anyway, either... I just want people to apply logic and reason to this, just for a minute only, and a minute only, and, again, I didn't say forget scripture, I said forget all that you know, just for a minute only, only for objectivity, then come back and apply it to what you know... It's the only way to get "outside of the box" if only for a minute, to expand your horizon's and raise your thinking for a bit...

Your acting as if logic and reason is evil when it is not... And getting outside of the box for a minute and applying logic and reason is wrong or evil, when it is not...

I don't know if you read post #8, but you might want to...

God Bless!

Logic and reason aren't evil. I just don't see the logic behind ignoring an important piece of information (revelation of God in Scripture) when talking about the nature of God.

 

[Neogaia777]

What I meant is that according to Genesis we were created in the likeness of God. Humanity is somehow like God, and if that is true, we can know something about God by knowing humanity.

Yes, and I would like to know how so...? Especially with this God that we are discussing...? How or in what ways could He possibly be like a human being in any way, or ways, if He can and is, ect...?

I ask because I don't know and would like to discuss and explore this issue...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Logic and reason aren't evil. I just don't see the logic behind ignoring an important piece of information (revelation of God in Scripture) when talking about the nature of God.

There you go again, assuming that I'm talking about just scripture, when I'm saying "everything", all of it... And most mainly all of your pre-conceived notions and ideas about "everything", you were taught, and had or have learned, ect, and only for a minute, and then, go back to it/them, and apply where you were just at for a second...?

Then, "Discuss", ect...?

God Bless!

 

[Mark Dohle]

I do believe that what 'many' christians worshiip, and I put myself in this group, is the tendency to make God into one of the gods, like Zeus for instance.

God had to use 'words' to speak to us, by the one WORD, which is beyond form, or thought. So mystery put on flesh, and revealed Infinite Love. Which I do not yet understand, it being infinite.

Peace
Mark

 

[sdowney717]

Obviously Gods thoughts and ways are far above our own.
And it was God who chose to come down from heaven and be born as a man.
Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 55
Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

 

[fhansen]

Would He be "indifferent" or not...?

Yes...and no! An indifferent and distant God, aloof in His superiority and angry perhaps is the concept we default to-because we're fallen and lack the "knowledge of God", knowledge that was lost at the Fall. Jesus came to change all that, to reveal the true "face" of God in everything He said and did so that we may know Him, and by coming to know Him we may love Him.

Adam's sin of disobedience, fueled by pride, separated him from God. It was effectively an act of denying His godhood. With that act man had conceived a "distorted image of God" as one teaching I'm familiar with puts it. We all carry that distorted image with us and until the greatest conceivable being becomes the God of Jesus, the God of ineffable and unimaginably huge love, then He remains distant, unapproachable. Jesus came to reveal and so reconcile us with the Father.

 

[zoidar]

Do this with me please, please... Forget "everything you know or think you know" for a minute OK...? Just everything for a minute, OK...? And put your thinking caps on OK...? I know I may be asking a lot, but just please do this for a minute, OK...?

Now, "think" of the "absolute Highest Entity or Being or God you can think of" OK...? Consider His Omniscience... or that Ones knowing everything from beginning to ending, from the very beginning, or before even making, OK... And I do mean "everything" down it's smallest detail to it's largest OK...? And, also keep in mind that He is the one who created or set all this in motion also, OK...?

Now, what would that One be "like"...? Would He have feelings like ours...? And if so, how would He or that One express them...? Would He even be able to, or be able to show us Himself without "others" maybe just slightly "less than" Himself in "some ways"...? Would be able to do that (show us Himself) without that (others maybe just slightly less than Himself in some ways)...?

Yes, or No...?

Then and now, "Consider"... Consider all of this and let's discuss please... Discuss all of this and all the probabilities and possibilities, and let's all try to all comprehend it all together OK...?

And then, "Discuss"... What do you think...? What are your thoughts and theories...?

And then, finally, how would they fit into and with scripture as just one final note...?

And then, lets's "Discuss" it, OK...?

God Bless!

It's easy to know how God is. Look how Jesus is, then know how God is.

 

[zoidar]

If you know the Son, you know the Father

 

[Neogaia777]

If you know the Son, you know the Father

I agree wholeheartedly, but do we all fully know the Son as to know the Father, and this "Heavenly Father God" or the One I talk about in the OP that I believe Jesus is speaking of...?

How do we see/know the Father in Him and through Him and by Him... Cause I do think They are just alike, and He is just like Him, after all, that's what Jesus came for right, well, part of it anyway, show us the/this Father God, right...? So, how do we, ect...? Cause Jesus is so multifaceted and so incredibly vast and so seemingly incredibly complex, so, how do we see this Father God by Him...? Know Him and know Him (Father God) fully, by knowing Him (Jesus) fully, ect...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

I agree wholeheartedly, but do we all fully know the Son as to know the Father, and this "Heavenly Father God" or the One I talk about in the OP that I believe Jesus is speaking of...?

How do we see/know the Father in Him and through Him and by Him... Cause I do think they are just alike, and He is just like Him, but Jesus is so multifaceted and so incredibly vast and so seemingly incredibly complex, so, how do we see this Father God by Him...? Know Him and know Him (Father God) fully, by knowing Him (Jesus) fully, ect...?

God Bless!

Through giving our lives to Him, turning our hearts fully to Him, then we will know Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Neogaia777]

Through giving our lives to Him, turning our hearts fully to Him, then we will know Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

I guess I'm just looking for a step by step detailed description of just exactly how that happens and/or comes about, or comes to light exactly, ect...?

That's probably going to be very difficult though...?

God Bless!

 

[fhansen]

I agree wholeheartedly, but do we all fully know the Son as to know the Father, and this "Heavenly Father God" or the One I talk about in the OP that I believe Jesus is speaking of...?

How do we see/know the Father in Him and through Him and by Him... Cause I do think They are just alike, and He is just like Him, after all, that's what Jesus came for right, well, part of it anyway, show us the/this Father God, right...? So, how do we, ect...? Cause Jesus is so multifaceted and so incredibly vast and so seemingly incredibly complex, so, how do we see this Father God by Him...? Know Him and know Him (Father God) fully, by knowing Him (Jesus) fully, ect...?

God Bless!

It takes time. Through all of human history God has been preparing mankind, first through His chosen people, to ready us to receive the ultimate light. But man prefers darkness. We prefer our autonomy from Him, a freedom which really amounts to slavery. By the experience of being apart from God, a disordered state of being for man that we're all born into, we can come to appreciate and learn, with the help of grace, of our absolute need for Him, that 'apart from Him we can do nothing'.

This is the drama were all engaged in in this life, whether we're actively participating in finding this truth or not. Jesus reveals a God who is truly worth believing in, hoping in, and ultimately loving as we become jaded with the world's offerings and our own pride that keeps us apart from Him and looking to the world, to created things, for our fulfillment. The more we respond to His grace, to Him, the more He reveals Himself

 

[PaulCyp1]

Everything about God is infinitely beyond the comprehension of humans. We attempt to get some degree of understanding by describing Him in human terms like "all-knowing" and "all-loving", "all powerful", "infinite" and "eternal". But no mere human mind is capable of actually understanding what any of those terms actually mean. We can give dictionary definitions of them, in human terms, but God alone fully comprehends what they mean.

 

[Jamsie]

Now, "think" of the "absolute Highest Entity or Being or God you can think of" OK...? Consider His Omniscience... or that Ones knowing everything from beginning to ending, from the very beginning, or before even making, OK... And I do mean "everything" down it's smallest detail to it's largest OK...? And, also keep in mind that He is the one who created or set all this in motion also, OK...?

Now, what would that One be "like"...? Would He have feelings like ours...? And if so, how would He or that One express them...? Would He even be able to, or be able to show us Himself without "others" maybe just slightly "less than" Himself in "some ways"...? Would be able to do that (show us Himself) without that (others maybe just slightly less than Himself in some ways)...?

I do not believe Aristotle was familiar with the Hebrew God yet was able to offer a descriptive that is as valid today as it was then. Many of the attributes we find definitive of God can be assessed from Aristotle. (unmoved mover...etc.) As Aquinas further argues our statements about God's attributes are to be taken in an analogous sense... for our concept of omnipotence or omniscience is quite limited.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

This is a bit like asking a newborn baby to explain how it was born.

 

[Neogaia777]

I do not believe Aristotle was familiar with the Hebrew God yet was able to offer a descriptive that is as valid today as it was then. Many of the attributes we find definitive of God can be assessed from Aristotle. (unmoved mover...etc.) As Aquinas further argues our statements about God's attributes are to be taken in an analogous sense... for our concept of omnipotence or omniscience is quite limited.

Omnipotence is quite simple, it means you have the power to do, or change, or alter, or create, or destroy, ect, ect, just about anything, ect, whenever and however and whenever you wanted, or desired to, ect...

Omniscience, means, at least in this universe, you know or you knew, from before the very beginning of it, and before even setting it all in motion or making it, how it all was going to go, and be, where and when everything was going to be, be doing, ect, ect, from it's largest, or largest components, down to it very smallest atoms or quarks or quantum particles, ect, ect...

Omniscience means you know/knew "all of that", from the very beginning, or from before the very beginning, all the way to it's all ending, ect, ect... Or knew "all of that" from before the very beginning of making it or setting it all in motion, or even thinking of it, from before the beginning of time (and space) all the way down to it's ending, or the ending of all time (and space), ect, or space and time, ect...

Could see it "all", or this all, in an instant of time, from before the very beginning of time, ect, ect... (And space, ect)... Matter and physical material, innumerable numbers (to us) of chemical actions and reactions, and chain reactions, particles, atoms, ect, ect... Where and how it was all going to be and when, where, how, go, ect... Knew, knows "all of it" and "knew it all" basically, ect... Could predict any and all of it cause you knew all of it, from before the very beginning of making it, in an instant of time, ect...

And did, or decided to do or make it anyway, ect...

Tell me at least some of you might be catching onto this maybe please, somebody, anybody maybe...?

Thanks,

God Bless!

 

[Jamsie]

Omnipotence is quite simple, it means you have the power to do, or change, or alter, or create, or destroy, ect, ect, just about anything, ect, whenever and however and whenever you wanted, or desired to, ect...

Omniscience, means, at least in this universe, you know or you knew, from before the very beginning of it, and before even setting it all in motion or making it, how it all was going to go, and be, where and when everything was going to be, be doing, ect, ect, from it's largest, or largest components, down to it very smallest atoms or quarks or quantum particles, ect, ect...

Omniscience means you know/knew "all of that", from the very beginning, or from before the very beginning, all the way to it's all ending, ect, ect... Or knew "all of that" from before the very beginning of making it or setting it all in motion, or even thinking of it, from before the beginning of time (and space) all the way down to it's ending, or the ending of all time (and space), ect, or space and time, ect...

Could see it "all", or this all, in an instant of time, from before the very beginning of time, ect, ect... (And space, ect)... Matter and physical material, innumerable numbers (to us) of chemical actions and reactions, and chain reactions, particles, atoms, ect, ect... All of it and knew it all basically, ect... Could predict any and all of it cause you knew all of it, from before the very beginning of making it, in an instant of time, ect...

We all know what the terms mean, so of course as a descriptive it is quite simple however, we are incapable of fully comprehending such terms relative to God. That is the point, we can not know God to any extent approaching a complete sense but only through our analogy. When you insert "you know or you knew" it defeats the very fact that there is only one "unmoved mover", the terms do not have application beyond God. The further point was that these attributes were set forth by one with no knowledge or scripture at hand to make such assertions... so his thoughts were as open and unbiased as possible.

 

[fhansen]

I do not believe Aristotle was familiar with the Hebrew God yet was able to offer a descriptive that is as valid today as it was then. Many of the attributes we find definitive of God can be assessed from Aristotle. (unmoved mover...etc.) As Aquinas further argues our statements about God's attributes are to be taken in an analogous sense... for our concept of omnipotence or omniscience is quite limited.

This is very true-philosophy has done a great service to humankind in this area by giving us "motives of credibility" as the theologians put it. And yet the use of reason can only take it so far. It doesn't reveal a God that we can trust in or love. For that, revelation is necessary.