Everyone is born alienated from God as a result of sin ... that is our natural condition from birth (we are born in a sinful world). All are born subject to sin and all will indeed sin due to exposure of sin on earth. Satan rules the world (as God permits) and satan is who causes temptation and all fall prey to that temptation. Nobody is excluded from temptation. Jesus was fully God and fully man ... and although He was tempted by satan it was impossible for Him to sin because He was also fully God.
Jesus was born without original sin. We do know, as the Scriptures teach us, that He was made like us in every respect except one; namely, He was without sin, and therefore without original sin (Hebrews 4:15). He was tempted.
Jesus did not have a sin nature because He is God. It's impossible for God to sin.
God does not create sinners. God does not create human beings as sinners from birth. The fallen sinful nature (not a sin within itself) exists because it is the result from the original fall ... the fall tainted all of Gods good and perfect creation exposing all to sin. All will indeed sin because all of creation is exposed to it ... ie ... we grow up in it ... it is the natural state of the world we live in.
We become sinners (transgression of the law) by our choices, not by creation or by birth. Therefore, the fallen sinful nature in itself is not sin and one must commit an act of sin to be responsible for it. Sin and death did not enter the world until Adam and Eve actually yielded to satans temptation. The same has been going on since creation ... nothing has change really ... the result is we are constantly exposed to sin. Adam and Eve had a choice ... and so do we.
Sin is not transferable from the father to the son or from the son to the father – Ezekiel 18:20. The fallen sinful nature (subject to temptation) is part of our natural world that we are born into. If the fallen sinful nature is sin, then sin would be transferable from one to another. Therefore, the fallen sinful nature (exposure to it) in itself is not sin.
Sin is transgression of the law ... one must have knowledge of what the law is in order to willfully transgress it. The law is written in the heart ... all are made aware of it at some point in their life ... it takes a certain amount of intelligence to recognize right from wrong (knowledge) and this happens in the heart. A human is constantly developing and their knowledge of sin (transgression of the law) is imparted to them at some point in their life ... that is they know what sin is.
If we are sinners because of our fallen sinful nature (born into a sinful world). God would be responsible for sin if we are born sinners without our choice. Since we are sinners by choice, therefore, we are responsible for our sin. The fallen sinful nature (being born) in itself is not sin.
It is why people must be born again becoming a spiritual recreation and when that happens we receive help from the Holy Spirit to help us overcome our natural tendency to sin (transgression of the law). We battle against our tendency to sin throughout our earthly life. We born into and constantly live in a spiritual war zone. War between good and evil is extremely ugly and the entire creation experiences the "fall out" (consequences) from it.
We are fortunate to know that God wins the war ... the war between good and evil rages on until His return and He ends the war for eternity. AMEN!!!
We will be returned/recreated to our natural state created state before the fall (void of sin) when Christ returns and will remain that way for eternity .... because the great tempter (satan) will be destroyed and temptation to sin will be non existent.
James 1:14-15 KJV
but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
All are born into a world of temptation and all succumb to it ... temptation is inescapable without the Lord. Jesus was tempted but did not fall prey to it.
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it” (1 Cor. 10:13). That is a word for us today. Whatever temptation may confront us, it isn't unique and with the Lord's help we can overcome it.
We all fall to the temptations of the devil ... it is the devil that tempts people to sin ... God allows satan to tempt us ...and will allow it until Jesus returns and fully executes His plan of salvation for eternity.
The point .... it's not over yet and until Jesus returns we need the power of the Lord to help us avoid temptation and to endure all things that happen in the world of sin we live in.
I am reading what could be considered contradictory statements from you like: “Everyone
is born alienated from God as a result of sin” and “God does not create human beings as sinners from birth.”, yet we are alienated? And “We become sinners (transgression of the law) by our choices, not by creation or by birth.”
You seem to blame satan and/or God for our sinning: “God allows satan to tempt us” and “satan is who causes temptation and all fall prey to that temptation”.
1 Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Adam was not tempted by satan (Adam was not deceived by satan).
Our very best all human representatives (Very good by God’s words) Adam and Eve did not have this “sinful nature” prior to sinning and sinned with only one way to sin, so what would keep us from sinning with tons of ways to sin as the result of our conscience knowing good and evil, now?
You seem to agree that our own sins get us in trouble and not our birth (we are not all born in adultery).
James said: “…every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of
his own lust, and enticed…” and we see that in Eve. Eve lusted and coveted after the fruit and satan used her own wrong thoughts to tempt her, but he did not cause her to sin (do not put our blame on satan, which she tried to do).
Why does God allow satan to tempt us (including Eve)?
Is sin the problem or is fulfilling our earthly objective our problem?
That's a matter of interpretation ... adultery is assumed .... it is not specifically stated.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (We are conceived and born into a world of lies) that is our planets natural condition.
The scripture really doesn’t specify that any particular person was in sin. It could simply mean that David was conceived in a sinful world, and among sinners. The bible doesn’t specify that adultery occurred or any unrighteous act relating to conception (that is assumed).
As soon as they are born .... we are born into a sinful world ... that is our circumstance.
Everyone is “conceived in sin.” All are conceived and born into a sinful world and because of such all will indeed sin (transgress the law)
Not all are conceived via adultery ... yet all will be born into a sinful world and will indeed sin (transgression of the law)
We don't have control over the world we are conceived and born into (a sinful world) ... so in that light we all are conceived in sinful world and because of this we will indeed sin (transgress the law).
Apologies for the long post.
You must not have read my section of my post on Psalms 51:5. And it is certainly not suggesting David’s Mother committed adultery. Read all I write about David’s Mother and even more can be said.
Psalms 51:5
Psalms 51:5 is a problem translation for Jews and Christians, so this one verse takes a lot of explaining, but it also has to be consistent with all these verse in Psalms at least.
It has been decades since I did my study and I have many pages of notes.
This could all be a very poetic hyperbole David is using and he should be allowed some poetic license.
We have similar verses:
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
I argue that a child is Innocent:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17)
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11 "Once alive" "sin killed me"
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Looking Deeper into Psalms 51:5
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act.
Read some of the English translation Psalms 51:5
KJV Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
YLT Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.
WEB Behold, I was born in iniquity. My mother conceived me in sin
RSV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
KJV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Granted some translators have a problem with the sin being David’s mother’s problem and will point to verses like these:
In PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's positive relationship with the Lord.
Psalm 86:16 Turn to me and have mercy on me; show your strength in behalf of your servant; save me, because I serve you just as my mother did. She sounds righteous to me.
Thus, they majorly change the translation to be David’s sin, But are these translations the result of preconceived ideas?
The wording seems to be saying: the sin is the mothers at conception.
What do we know which could show it to be David’s mother and a problem?
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail)…..:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
Again the translators do not like the idea of these sisters only being David’s so the change the wording and meaning, but the better translations is:
KJV Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.
Why might these two only be David’s sisters and not Jesse’s daughters: 2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man’s son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab’s mother.”
Nahash is king of the Ammonites.
1 Chronicles 19:2 David thought, “I will show kindness to Hanun son of Nahash, because his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent a delegation to express his sympathy to Hanun concerning his father. When David’s envoys came to Hanun in the land of the Ammonites to express sympathy to him,
Why did Nahash show kindness to David?
David’s Jewish mother seems to have been previously married to Nahash the Ammonite and later was the second wife of Jesse, this was not a “sin” most likely but later could have been perceived as a sin, thus Jesse not counting David as one of his sons and all his brothers treating him badly.
A lot more can be said, but it was not David being conceived a sinner, but his mother conceiving him could be perceived as a sin.
Now we can go further into scripture showing how David was treated and persecuted as an outsider by his family and loved only by his mother.
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