Do the unborn have rights?

[com7fy8]

There is no such thing as an unborn American. The U.S. Constitution explicitly specifies American citizens, if not naturalized immigrants, as people born here. It gives the unborn no rights. The unborn are human, but not people under the law.

I mean this thread for any member here in CF to share here, and we are welcome to talk about legal rights and how God feels about an unborn.

I am starting with legal rights, here.

Christian for Cats, you seem to be saying an unborn living in an American citizen has no Constitutional and therefore no legal rights under U.S. law.

But is it not true that a person who attacks a pregnant woman and kills her unborn can be charged with murder? If this is so, then I would think the unborn does have rights, even if the Constitution does not say this in plain English > it could be understood that the unborn is sharing in the mother's rights, while still in her body.

 

[com7fy8]

Another thing >

In Genesis 25:23, the LORD calls Rebecca's two unborn "two nations" > this is in various translations of English and Spanish Bibles that I checked. So, even if a country does not give rights to an unborn and might not consider the unborn to be a person . . . God called Jacob and Esau "nations" . . . not only babies, before they were born.

 

[pleinmont]

I think the rights of the mother outweigh those of the foetus. However, having said that if it is necessary to terminate the pregnancy once the foetus is viable because the health of the mother is in danger, steps should be taken to try to remove it whilst it is still alive.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Another thing >

In Genesis 25:23, the LORD calls Rebecca's two unborn "two nations" > this is in various translations of English and Spanish Bibles that I checked. So, even if a country does not give rights to an unborn and might not consider the unborn to be a person . . . God called Jacob and Esau "nations" . . . not only babies, before they were born.

I forgot which twins were one is in the womb and the other is out of the womb, both were seen as equal, alive.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I mean this thread for any member here in CF to share here, and we are welcome to talk about legal rights and how God feels about an unborn.

I am starting with legal rights, here.

Christian for Cats, you seem to be saying an unborn living in an American citizen has no Constitutional and therefore no legal rights under U.S. law.

But is it not true that a person who attacks a pregnant woman and kills her unborn can be charged with murder? If this is so, then I would think the unborn does have rights, even if the Constitution does not say this in plain English > it could be understood that the unborn is sharing in the mother's rights, while still in her body.

You are correct. There is a double standard. If both mother and fetus are killed then it is a double homicide.

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

 

[Speedwell]

NM

 

[com7fy8]

the health of the mother is in danger,

This can be a concern of Bible claiming people > some feel they would sacrifice their own lives so their unborn would live. Others favor the mother's life.

But there can be convenience people, who would kill her unborn just so she can be more comfortable, even though her life is not on the line.

There is a double standard.

NM

Well, Speedwell . . . New Mexico, not me, never mind . . . >

I offer that I did not intend for this to be a thread loaded for only hearing what pro-life people have to say. I would think you are free here to share what you feel, maybe what you have actually experienced.

And really why you do.

But if a child and the mother were in a mangled car wreck, and only one could live . . . and one or the other had to be killed, in order to save one > I am not sure I could choose to kill one so the other could live. And it is likely that the mother would say kill her, while the child would say kill him or her and not Mommy.

It might be legal to kill someone, in such a case . . . but . . . if I was the only person there who could rescue one or the other . . .

 

[Speedwell]

This can be a concern of Bible claiming people > some feel they would sacrifice their own lives so their unborn would live. Others favor the mother's life.

But there can be convenience people, who would kill her unborn just so she can be more comfortable, even though her life is not on the line.



Well, Speedwell . . . New Mexico, not me, never mind . . . >

I offer that I did not intend for this to be a thread loaded for only hearing what pro-life people have to say. I would think you are free here to share what you feel, maybe what you have actually experienced.

And really why you do.

But if a child and the mother were in a mangled car wreck, and only one could live . . . and one or the other had to be killed, in order to save one > I am not sure I could choose to kill one so the other could live. And it is likely that the mother would say kill her, while the child would say kill him or her and not Mommy.

It might be legal to kill someone, in such a case . . . but . . . if I was the only person there who could rescue one or the other . . .

Never Mind. I posted in the original thread instead. At this point I am only interested in discussing abortion as a political/legal issue.

 

[pleinmont]

This can be a concern of Bible claiming people > some feel they would sacrifice their own lives so their unborn would live. Others favor the mother's life.

But there can be convenience people, who would kill her unborn just so she can be more comfortable, even though her life is not on the line.



Well, Speedwell . . . New Mexico, not me, never mind . . . >

I offer that I did not intend for this to be a thread loaded for only hearing what pro-life people have to say. I would think you are free here to share what you feel, maybe what you have actually experienced.

And really why you do.

But if a child and the mother were in a mangled car wreck, and only one could live . . . and one or the other had to be killed, in order to save one > I am not sure I could choose to kill one so the other could live. And it is likely that the mother would say kill her, while the child would say kill him or her and not Mommy.

It might be legal to kill someone, in such a case . . . but . . . if I was the only person there who could rescue one or the other . . .

In the early stages of pregnancy the embryo only has the potential to become a live human being. The mother should have absolute right to abort the pregnancy rather than give birth to an unwanted child. Far better though to ensure one uses contraception when having sex if a woman doesn't wish to get pregnant. I had three birth children by the time I was 26, I had no wish to give birth to anymore so had my tubes tied, far better than having a termination.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I mean this thread for any member here in CF to share here, and we are welcome to talk about legal rights and how God feels about an unborn.

I am starting with legal rights, here.

Christian for Cats, you seem to be saying an unborn living in an American citizen has no Constitutional and therefore no legal rights under U.S. law.

But is it not true that a person who attacks a pregnant woman and kills her unborn can be charged with murder? If this is so, then I would think the unborn does have rights, even if the Constitution does not say this in plain English > it could be understood that the unborn is sharing in the mother's rights, while still in her body.

Personally I am in agreement with the following.

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights , that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the goverened,"

As the disposition of the unborn has been seen as something the Government instuituted by Men has decided to govern as mentioned earlier, that government which derives its just powers from the consent of the governed has implicitly legally recognized the rights of the unborn. The Constitution also used the phrase "created equal" rather than "born equal" when referring to what all men are. Additionally it is current legal precedent that the term 'men' is to be taken as human being not just adult males.

 

[com7fy8]

Democrats "get it" perfectly. The difference is they care about the rights to bodily autonomy, privacy, and motherhood status. Republicans refuse to accept the fact that her quality of life matters.

God cares about her and her baby.

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

With God we can have all He desires for us and our unborn.

And we have how our Apostle Paul went through a lot of suffering in order to bless various people whom he loved. Once he was living in God's grace, he says, he took "pleasure", even, in his troubles > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15.

Because God's love "casts out fear" (1 John 4:18), gives us peace with His personal guiding > Colossians 3:15 > God's personal guiding in His peace perfectly guides us together with however our Father pleases to care for us.

And Jesus left the quality of life He had in Heaven, in order to reach us and save us and share all this good of God with us.

But Jesus and Paul had the quality of love satisfying them while they do sacrificed.

No law can make us love, like this.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Because God cares about the mom too there is no reason for anyone who claims to be pro-life to not care about her as well.

 

[com7fy8]

In the early stages of pregnancy the embryo only has the potential to become a live human being. The mother should have absolute right to abort the pregnancy rather than give birth to an unwanted child. Far better though to ensure one uses contraception when having sex if a woman doesn't wish to get pregnant. I had three birth children by the time I was 26, I had no wish to give birth to anymore so had my tubes tied, far better than having a termination.

Though we do not agree on everything, thank you for sharing so personally.

I certainly think people can do better so they do not get pregnant if they don't want to.

If I were to do something so I had the custody of a child . . . after I had done what is inconsiderate or immoral or irresponsible . . . that would be my own fault.

It is not the same thing, I would say, but let's say I steal a car and lo and behold there is a baby in the back seat. I am not going to kill the baby for the sake of my convenience or quality of life!! I arranged that situation; it's not the baby's fault.

 

[com7fy8]

Because God cares about the mom too there is no reason for anyone who claims to be pro-life to not care about her as well.

My impression is there can be horrible treatment of an unwed pregnant mother. There can be psychological terrorism, even, holding her acceptance hostage in order to coerce her to meet their demands that she kill her own unborn child. Ones can even threaten not to support her or help her. So, I think this is part of the problem . . . how ones do not know how to love.

And there can be pro-life people, too, who can be horrible. They might require her to keep her child, but not help her, leave her on her own, pretty much with ones who do not want her and have threatened not to help her and her baby.

I notice, by the way, how certain people are so concerned about rights for certain groups of people, but I have yet to read or hear about any movement to outlaw discrimination against unwed pregnant mothers or new unwed mothers, and their babies. All there seems to be is the push to have the right to kill an unborn, but nothing to deal with ones who discriminate against unwed pregnant mothers, and who might harass them and pressure them!!

So, then, it might be that some number of Dems - - - also - - are not really caring about unwed women who are pregnant.

Unsure love, I now consider, is possibly the greatest threat to America's security. In order to keep acceptance of peers, ones can kill, ruin themselves by smoking, on we can go about how people can hurt and kill others or themselves because they are not sure of having real love.

And yes, but not knowing it all, I would say ones supposedly pro-life can indeed be ones who do not know how to love. Ones can be after the bloc of votes of evangelical people, among other possibilities. And ones don't want to spend the tax money, to help young mothers who are single. Get the votes, yes, but save money . . . while some number of Democrats can profit from the abortion industry.

So, I would say do not let anyone decide if you love your unborn or not. Motives for or against an unborn can be selfish.

 

[durangodawood]

This thread opens with reference to the US Constitution.

So... if the fetal human does have constitutional rights, which ones are they exactly?

 

[Albion]

This thread opens with reference to the US Constitution.

So... if the fetal human does have constitutional rights, which ones are they exactly?

Unfortunately, the answer is in the hands of five members of the Supreme Court, but the Constitution itself does not discriminate between humans when it speaks of the God-given right to life.

 

[Speedwell]

My impression is there can be horrible treatment of an unwed pregnant mother. There can be psychological terrorism, even, holding her acceptance hostage in order to coerce her to meet their demands that she kill her own unborn child. Ones can even threaten not to support her or help her. So, I think this is part of the problem . . . how ones do not know how to love.

And there can be pro-life people, too, who can be horrible. They might require her to keep her child, but not help her, leave her on her own, pretty much with ones who do not want her and have threatened not to help her and her baby.

I notice, by the way, how certain people are so concerned about rights for certain groups of people, but I have yet to read or hear about any movement to outlaw discrimination against unwed pregnant mothers or new unwed mothers, and their babies. All there seems to be is the push to have the right to kill an unborn, but nothing to deal with ones who discriminate against unwed pregnant mothers, and who might harass them and pressure them!!

So, then, it might be that some number of Dems - - - also - - are not really caring about unwed women who are pregnant.

Unsure love, I now consider, is possibly the greatest threat to America's security. In order to keep acceptance of peers, ones can kill, ruin themselves by smoking, on we can go about how people can hurt and kill others or themselves because they are not sure of having real love.

And yes, but not knowing it all, I would say ones supposedly pro-life can indeed be ones who do not know how to love. Ones can be after the bloc of votes of evangelical people, among other possibilities. And ones don't want to spend the tax money, to help young mothers who are single. Get the votes, yes, but save money . . . while some number of Democrats can profit from the abortion industry.

So, I would say do not let anyone decide if you love your unborn or not. Motives for or against an unborn can be selfish.

It's not just unwed women who decide to have abortions.

 

[durangodawood]

Unfortunately, the answer is in the hands of five members of the Supreme Court, but the Constitution itself does not discriminate between humans when it speaks of the God-given right to life.

Where is that in the US Constitution?

 

[Lazarus Long]

What medical procedure that only a man can undergo should be subject to the fierce debate that this procedure is?

 

[com7fy8]

Never Mind.

Don't worry; I knew what you meant But a good teacher, I have been told, does not assume what others know and understand. And I can be quite clueless about a number of things.

abortion as a political/legal issue.

Ok, here we go >

This thread opens with reference to the US Constitution.

So... if the fetal human does have constitutional rights, which ones are they exactly?

Unfortunately, the answer is in the hands of five members of the Supreme Court, but the Constitution itself does not discriminate between humans when it speaks of the God-given right to life.

Now, I understand the Constitution means there are things which the Constitution acknowledges, but it itself does not have the authority to decide. So, it is possible for ones to make laws later which are wrong. I personally see how the Constitution can mean God is the One, who created every human, who has the real authority to determine what we have a right to and what we don't.

So . . . it says He created us equal. And His creating began while we were in the womb. So, I can see there is the meaning that even a conceived being already has rights, as far as God is concerned. But the Constitution does not spell this out. But, also, at the time of that writing possibly civil people fully understood that their unborn were their children.

Ones who want children can be loving them, already, long before they even find who they will marry. In their hearts, I mean, already they have desired and prepared in themselves to have their children. And as soon as they get pregnant, right away they deeply feel they have a baby and already dearly and excitedly love their unborn, longing for them to come out and grow up.

But now, in America, we do not see all loving like this.

But . . . back to your question > what rights does an unborn have? Not to vote lololololol Not to drive or drink. They would have right to life, like Albion shares, I would say, but they do not have much liberty, in the womb, nor much conscious pursuing of happiness.

But . . . those can be what very selfish people can have and misuse, yet be legally allowed to have their selfish lives. Therefore, Constitutional rights might be rather limited!

I consider that an unborn could have the right that his or her mother is happy and treated well while she is pregnant. That unborn one, if he or she could think and feel, would very likely want people to love and care for and be kind to the unborn child's mother. There are rights which the unborn would want, if he or she were a consciously loving person while in there.

So, we could have an interesting discussion about what would be the unborn's rights and desires . . . if.

May be we could say the unborn has the right that the child's mother does not smoke or drug or drink enough to effect the child. This could go under the right to life . . . and effect how the child later in life will be able to have liberty and happiness.