Do some believe babies go to Hell?

[gordonhooker]

Like the mother who killed her infant to save the child from the possibility of endless hell.

Would that make her co-savior?

All that does is prove there are sick individuals in the world, and comments like yours don't really help to spread the Good News.

 

[ClementofA]

Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

If that were the case, when do aborted babies make a "free will choice to accept or reject God"? Before they die or postmortem?

When do aborted babies get to hear the gospel & be saved? Postmortem?

If they hear the gospel postmortem, what gives you the idea every one of many millions of them, 100%, will make a choice to accept God rather than reject Him? What are the odds of that? Like flipping a coin millions of times & it turns up heads every time?

 

[ClementofA]

*Sigh* No. I said "Imagine." I am saying God is sovereignly aware of what men will do in the future and He is in control of where to place them through out time before they even existed.

Unless human souls prexisted before conception, God has nowhere "to place them" before they are concieved. Since they didn't exist. And why would i want to "imagine" something that isn't true? Perhaps you need to find a better illustration for your point. Which is what?

God is aware of those who will worship the beast in the future (See Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8). As a result, their names are the only exception of those who are excluded from the book of life before the foundation of the world.

That doesn't prove or necessarily indicate foreknowledge before specific individuals existed that they would worship the beast. If only new names (Abraham, not Abram; Paul not Saul) are written in the BOL, then anyone under their old name still (as in they have not yet become a new creation, 2 Cor.5:17) would not - yet - be written in the BOL. Yet - all - shall obtain to life (Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28).

So if God is capable of making this kind of decision before they were born, then God is perfectly capable of making the decision in regards to those babies who will die and go to Heaven, too.

When do babies make a libertarian free will decision to accept the gospel? Before they die or postmortem?

Is it your view that God knows that 100% of aborted babies & those who died as infants will choose Christ rather than reject Him when presented with the gospel?

What of teenagers & adults who never heard the gospel. Will they also hear it postmortem? Will 100% of them also accept Christ?

Will those who heard & rejected not be given a second chance?

 

[ClementofA]

All that does is prove there are sick individuals in the world, and comments like yours don't really help to spread the Good News.

She was not thinking logically in accord with her beliefs? Is she the sick one, or her belief system?

What is the "Good News"? Endless punishment? Salvation from a myth?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[2tim_215]

If you believed that & all babies go to heaven, why wouldn't your gospel be "make as many babies as you can & abort/kill them while they are still babies"?

Because that makes no sense and besides that you'd be committing murder. I'd think everyone believes "thou shalt not kill and if you believe in hell you definitely don't want to do that. And besides what right does anyone have to intentionally take the life of a child and deprive them of life on this earth, no matter how bad it potentially might be for them? Only God has the right to take someone's life, or to give it. Unfortunately it happens sometimes, but God certainly won't punish the child who's innocent. God never punishes the innocent, only man.

The devil is a spirit being so can't be turned into "ashes" & Ezek.28:18 is speaking of one (not Satan) who has already been turned to "ashes":

By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. (NASB)

Satan, OTOH, is not now "ashes" nor has he been (nor ever will be) endlessly annihilated.

Isn't possible that this could be prophetic or a future event?

 

[JerseyChristianSuperstar]

Hell is choice, not punishment.

We either choose the things of God, the ways of God,... or we choose the ways of the world. The ways that lead to death.

Either way He respects our choice.

Why would He force people that wanted NOTHING to do with Him in a temporary life to be forced to spend eternity in His presence?

Gods wrath was poured out on the cross for those that choose to follow Christ...

I agree that Hell is the unfortunate consequence for those who refuse to come to Christ, but Scripture is very clear that it is a punishment as well - since God is holy and just, His very character demands that He punish unrepentant sinners who want nothing to do with Him and have rejected His truth in His Son.

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Meaningless to who? Humans continually act to avoid "temporary suffering" in this world. It means a lot to them. How much more should they act to avoid "temporary sufferings" postmortem which could last for eons.



That says nothing about how long sufferings or punishment will last.



That's like saying the efforts of the good Samaritan didn't matter.



Already addressed above. Moreover, in your view, endless annihilation, the annihilated suffer nothing once they are annihilated. To what end is their sufferings before that when they have no chance of being saved? That would be unjust & sadistic of God to inflict such torments upon them for no salvific purpose.



That's like saying saving a child from a pedophile sex abuser or torturing father "would not mean anything". Do you also consider all the Christian charities that help people to be meaningless?




Is the - only - thing that matters to you trying to save people from endless nonexistence, because your "god" has a "temporary" love which expires for the lost after a few hours, years or decades? And in your theology the blood of Christ shed for many & their sins is also of "temporary" effect & a very quick expiry date. That's what the false teaching of endless nuking out of existence of souls requires. It's "god" is a Hitler who endlessly gasses out of existence those He hates for eternity.

What is it that matters to you? Do you think your efforts will make a difference in how many people are saved during their mortal lives? That if it were not for you, Love Omnipotent would let anyone be lost?



So but for the terrorizing threat of endless oblivion, your heart would rather be stuffing your face with unhealthy foods leading to sufferings in this life & living for your own worldly pleasures? IOW your religion is all about being motivated by fear? You'ld throw Christ in the garbage can & crucify Him afresh if endless punishment were not true?



I find this sad.



Yet you'ld end up suffering in "hell" postmortem while also reaping what you sowed for your sins premortem. And regret your decision to reject Christ. You'ld be extremely foolish to choose eating ice cream for a few moments over escaping what may be eons in torments.



Yet that is exactly what your theology of endless oblivion for the lost teaches.



Actually many people, even those who reject universalism, have thought similarly regarding various Bible passages.



Actually, i know you're wrong.



Why wouldn't your actions matter? That's quite revealing that you would only be for these things if it helped you avoid being endlessly annihilated:

Even if there was no postmortem hell, your own conscience tells you you should repent & do what is right & loving. Even also the consequences of sin in this life should motivate you to repent, to say nothing of loving your neighbor, doing him no harm & returning love to Love Omnipotent Crucified Who loved you more than life itself.



To the contrary. There is a "hell" to avoid. It makes perfect "sense".



What do you think the many Christian charities do? Jesus went about doing good & healing those who were oppressed of the devil. The Bible says He did such things because He was "moved with compassion".



Ruined things & people can often be repaired. Especially when Love Omnipotent is the Repairman.



Nothing that is burned is ever annihilated, let alone annihilated forever. Fire often purifies things.

12Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. 14If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. 15If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.



Salvation isn't a "reward", it's a gift (Eph.2:8-9, etc). You don't earn it. You don't deserve it. Your complaint recalls the self righteousness of the prodigal son's brother when he returned home:

25And his elder son was in the field, and while coming up, he drew near to the house; he heard music and dancing.26And having called near one of the servants, he began inquiring what these things might be.

27And he said to him, ‘Your brother is come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him in good health.’

28But he was angry, and was not willing to go in. And his father, having gone, was begging him.

29And answering, he said to his father, ‘Behold, so many years I serve you, and never did I disobey a commandment of yours; and never did you give to me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30But when this son of yours came, the one having devoured your living with prostitutes, you have killed the fattened calf for him!’

31And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32But it was fitting to make merry and to rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; and he was lost and is found.’”

Also, I'm still waiting for a straightforward answer to this that makes any sense:

So how did that answer this: When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Obviously this is very important to you and you are looking to defend your belief for your own personal reasons. But what I said with Scripture stands all on it's own. I do not feel I need to keep defending my position with Scripture. I don't need to win this discussion with you. I believe my argument with God's Word is sufficient. If you don't accept it, I cannot help you. Nothing more I can say will help you. Universalism to me is a really far fetched belief to swallow and I consider it to be even more whacky than beliefs like Calvinism, and Eternal Security. Again, I told you that I would probably revert back to my old life or I would not care about sin so much if such a belief were true. Do you want me to do that? For if your belief was true (Which it isn't), I would feel God would not really care about what I do here in this life because He is just going to save everyone in the end (regardless of any temporary suffering). But you are free to believe as you wish. If you feel like you are in the fear of God and you are motivated to do good for Him by your belief, then have at it. I just know that would not work for me and many other people.

For me: Universalism is a belief that is totally contrary to a normal reading of the Scriptures. It's so obviously forced and contrived to the unbiased reader, its not even worth continuing to debate about it.

So carry on;
And may God bless you.

 

[ClementofA]

But what I said with Scripture stands all on it's own.

If you hadn't noticed i addressed the scriptures you posted & your interpretations of them.

Again, I told you that I would probably revert back to my old life or I would not care about sin so much if such a belief were true. Do you want me to do that?

You're not about to do that or thinking clearly re the Scriptures or why Universalists have reason to follow Christ. One day you will. As will others reading the posts here. Beliefs such as yours are among the main reasons many millions would say they will not accept Christ. And millions of others would say they have ceased believing in Him.

It's so obviously forced and contrived to the unbiased reader, its not even worth continuing to debate about it.

And yet many feel otherwise since there is always someone here to challenge the Universalists who post at this forum & many others. In fact many feel Universalism is a more reasonable Scriptural interpretation than endless torments.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Take care now.
And may...

 

[ClementofA]

I agree that Hell is the unfortunate consequence for those who refuse to come to Christ, but Scripture is very clear that it is a punishment as well - since God is holy and just, His very character demands that He punish unrepentant sinners who want nothing to do with Him and have rejected His truth in His Son.

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[gordonhooker]

She was not thinking logically in accord with her beliefs? Is she the sick one, or her belief system?

What is the "Good News"? Endless punishment? Salvation from a myth?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Would you like to add some context to your random comments that appear to be directed at no one in particular.

 

[RaymondG]

All that does is prove there are sick individuals in the world, and comments like yours don't really help to spread the Good News.

The example is extreme, but not that far off. If all babies go to heaven and few of even the righteous make it to heaven after becoming adults......it would make since to, at least encourage contraception, as opposed to intentionally adding to the occupancy of hell?

This line of reasoning, would make it beneficial to die as children...... I actually remember, as a child, desiring to die right after "getting saved" so to not have a chance to fall into temptation and go to hell if I lived longer......

If it doesnt make sense....we shouldnt try and make sense of it....

 

[Basil the Great]

For those of you who insist that one must accept Christ in this life in order to go to Heaven and no exceptions, then perhaps Limbo does exist for babies and toddlers? Also, perhaps Limbo exists for the millions who never hear the Gospel message during their life? Also, what about the mentally handicapped who are unable to really make a decision, due to their lack of understanding? Perhaps they go to Limbo also? The bottom line is that just because Scripture does not teach about Limbo does not mean that it cannot exist. God may have a reason why He does not reveal everything to us in Scripture.

 

[Pneuma3]

Again, I told you that I would probably revert back to my old life or I would not care about sin so much if such a belief were true. Do you want me to do that?

Would you rely revert back to your old life if the salvation of all is true?
That says more about you then you realize.
Do you serve God because you love him or because you are using him as some type of fire insurance?
Your comment above sounds like fire insurance to me.

 

[RaymondG]

For those of you who insist that one must accept Christ in this life in order to go to Heaven and no exceptions, then perhaps Limbo does exist for babies and toddlers? Also, perhaps Limbo exists for the millions who never hear the Gospel message during their life? Also, what about the mentally handicapped who are unable to really make a decision, due to their lack of understanding? Perhaps they go to Limbo also? The bottom line is that just because Scripture does not teach about Limbo does not mean that it cannot exist. God may have a reason why He does not reveal everything to us in Scripture.

What about reincarnation? Do you hold it possible for this to exist just as must as your Limbo? since it doesnt have to be in the bible to be true?

 

[Basil the Great]

What about reincarnation? Do you hold it possible for this to exist just as must as your Limbo? since it doesnt have to be in the bible to be true?

Is it possible? Almost anything is possible in this world. Many say that Jesus implied that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. He certainly did say that John fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi about Elijah's return. What Jesus exactly meant by that we do not know. What we do know is that Malachi did not say that God would send someone with the spirit and power of Elijah. No, Malachi said that God would send Elijah. What that means, we do not really know.

 

[RaymondG]

Is it possible? Almost anything is possible in this world. Many say that Jesus implied that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. He certainly did say that John fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi about Elijah's return. What Jesus exactly meant by that we do not know. What we do know is that Malachi did not say that God would send someone with the spirit and power of Elijah. No, Malachi said that God would send Elijah. What that means, we do not really know.

Thank you, your words concerning Limbo are heard and respected.

 

[Basil the Great]

Thank you, your words concerning Limbo are heard and respected.

Thank you. I do not profess a belief in Limbo as such, but am just saying that it is a possibility.

 

[RaymondG]

Thank you. I do not profess a belief in Limbo as such, but am just saying that it is a possibility.

I know, and I dont profess that I believe what you stated as well.....I just find the words of those who dont blatantly dismiss the unknown, respectable. These are the only kinds of people able to be reasoned with. Some are here to praise those with the same beliefs and degrade those who speak anything foreign..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Would you rely revert back to your old life if the salvation of all is true?
That says more about you then you realize.
Do you serve God because you love him or because you are using him as some type of fire insurance?
Your comment above sounds like fire insurance to me.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom (Proverbs 1:7)(Proverbs 9:10). If one cannot take those first steps, they cannot cannot cast out fear (1 John 4:18), and be perfected in love by obeying God. For 1 John 2:5 says,

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).​

The fact that God cares for me enough to make my choices matter in this life is the foundation or basis of my faith. It was the fear of the Lord that made me to depart from evil.

"...by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).​

To depart from evil gives understanding.

"Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).​

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
So after we fear the Lord (fire insurance as you call it), we learn to then love God by realizing that obeying His commandments is the equivalent of loving Him. We start to cast out fear of the Lord by perfecting our love in obedience to His Word (See again: 1 John 4:18, and 1 John 2:15).

Love is more than just a feeling.

Love is a devotion. A loyalty. A faithfulness.
But in order to learn how to love, we must need to fear God first because that is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. If one does not start off fearing God, then we do not care about sin, or God's judgments and or what He says and we are fools who are seeking to make ourselves into being our own gods with us dictating the terms of how things should be to God.