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Featured Do some believe babies go to Hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Not David, Nov 6, 2018.

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  1. Not David

    Not David Der Ewige Katechumene

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    Yes, I fear your all supreme knowledge.
     
  2. Not David

    Not David Der Ewige Katechumene

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    Don't be snarky. Hell is a English word in the same way all other Christian terms you know are in English even though they weren't written in that way. Hell is either the Hades/Sheol or Gehenna (Lake of Fire).
     
  3. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, but no need to fear. God gives wisdom freely to all who ask Him for it. However, if you would like to interpret with your mind and emotions, I find no fault in this as well. May you go in peace.
     
  4. Not David

    Not David Der Ewige Katechumene

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    I was being sarcastic but whatever. Peace ✌️
     
  5. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    I dont look for the negative, so forgive me if I can only see love and positivity in anything you post....now and in the future.... Peace.
     
  6. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Biblical story of the death of King David’s infant son provides Biblical support for hope that we will see our children again in Heaven. In the book of 2 Samuel, King David has a child with Bathsheba. The baby is seriously ill from birth. For seven days following the baby’s birth, David fasted and prayed without ceasing. We are told that he would not eat, despite the repeated requests from his servants to do so. We are told that he “layed all night on the ground” in ceaseless prayer. 2 Samuel 12:16.

    But after seven days of this fasting and praying, his infant son died. David’s servants were initially hesitant of even telling David, believing that he would be so distraught so as to consider suicide. Instead, upon receiving the unwelcome news, David surprised his servants by immediately washing, anointing, going into worship, and taking a meal.

    The servants wondered why, after feasting and praying during his infant son’s short lifetime, he would act in this manner upon hearing of the news of his son’s death. In response, David tells them, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.2 Samuel 12: 22-23.

    This tells us that David's child through Bathsheba who was stillborn, never baptized, nor born again would one day be united with him (according to David) and I believe him. Dead children would never be punished by God without ever having a chance, if anything they might go straight to heaven, without having to go through the rigors and the trials and tribulations of this world. I don't think we have to worry about them. If anything, they ought to worry about us. God is good.
     
  7. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Do you think I was snarky? I was simply and honestly reporting in a very brief way what I have found in my researches into concordances, dictionaries, word origins and language comparisons. The OED is my friend. Yes, "Hell" is a perfectly good English word, but the origins of both the word and the concept are pagan.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Laz>So they are, but the Bible ID's neither as Hell. Anyway, I can not find "Hell" in either the Hebrew or the Greek languages, but I DO find it in the languages of northern Europe, back when those nations were pagan. For instance, the Norse had a goddess who they thought to rule over those who missed going to Valhalla - her name was Hel. We find "Hel" the word twice in the 1611 KJV, and hopefully it was a typo.<end>
    This is a logical fallacy the "etymology fallacy."
    Here is the etymology of the word "hell" from Merriam-Webster dictionary. I usually consult credible sources rather than "internet experts."

    History and Etymology for hell
    Noun
    Middle English helle, going back to Old English hell, helle,going back to Germanic *haljō (whence also Old Saxon hellia"abode of the dead," Old High German hella, hellia, Old Norse hel "abode of the dead, the death goddess," Gothic halja,translating Greek Háidēs), perhaps from an o-grade nominal derivative of the Germanic verbal base *hel- "cover, hide"
    Now having said that there are hundreds of English words in the Bible which do not occur in the OT or the NT derived from many different languages. Many of those words do not mean what they originally meant. For example the word "truck," which in English usually refers to a large vehicle with a flat or enclosed bed used for hauling heavy loads. The first recorded use of the word "truck" was in 1611 and it meant "to give in exchange, to barter or dispose of by barter."
    .....What is the origin of the concept of "hell" as understood by most English speakers.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    =================
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.;). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, there is no reason Jesus would that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.


     
  9. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Laz replies: That was about as far as I got. Now, in case you are hinting that I may have relied heavily on internet experts rather than credible sources, the FACT is that I relied heavily on my Oxford English Dictionary, and found the same basic thing you did in your Merriam-Webster. I rarely read much of posts listing the conclusion first with no further explanation (etymology fallacy) or done in multiple colors
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your post looks much like the same as i already addressed in another thread as follows:

    To prove that you need at least one Bible verse where anyone is not just annihilated but annihilated forever (or the equivalent). Since no such Scripture exists in the 66 books of God, endless annihilation is not according to God's Word.

    None of the verses you listed support your viewpoint:


    Nothing in Gen.3:22 says Adam (or anyone else) will get endless annihilation.

    To the contrary all will get life, justification & righteousness:

    Rom.5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


    The bodies of the people of Sodom were made "ashes" & destroyed. Not their souls and spirits.

    Also their bodies ("ashes") will be resurrected back to life. So clearly they have not been endlessly annihilated.

    Additionally, verse 9 says:

    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

    Where the Greek word for "punished" can mean correction for the good of the offender.

    Nothing in 2 Pet.2:5-6 says Love Omnipotent will administer endless annihilation to any person. Next:

    By quoting this Scripture you haven't even begun to prove that Love Almighty will endlessly annihilate anyone.

    Scripture shows that destruction can be reversed:

    Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. (Psa. 90:3)

    Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” (Jn.2:19)

    Scripture shows that destruction can be a good thing:

    hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord (1 Cor.5:5)

    These are the words of a man, Eliphaz the Temanite, speaking to Job. They say nothing about endless annihilation. Sodom did perish & was consumed by fire from God, yet will be resurrected & restored (Ezek.16:48,53,55). They were not annihilated forever.

    The - way - of the ungodly shall perish. Their "way" is sin. When sin perishes from the universe, all will be saved.

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)


    That speaks of men dieing in their sins. It says nothing of what happens in the afterlife.


    Everyone sins: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom.3:23)

    Do all souls, then, die? As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins (Eph.2:1).

    The context of Exekiel 18 is speaking of death under the law, e.g. stoning for certain sins. It says nothing about afterlife punishment or final destiny.

    The word "perish" in this context refers to physical bodily death in this lifetime, & says nothing about the fate of souls in the afterlife:

    1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4“Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?


    Under the law certain offenses were "worthy of death", not endless annihilation.


    This verse does not say anyone will be annihilated forever. Neither does it say anyone will never do the will of God.


    Eventually all will get life, justification & righteousness:

    Rom.5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

    Those who reject Christ in this life & the afterlife will go to "hell" till they repent & are saved.


    12 Now these, as irrational animals, born naturally for capture and corruption, calumniating that in which they are ignorant in their corruption, also shall be corrupted (CLV)

    Verse 9 says:

    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

    Where the Greek word for "punished" can mean correction for the good of the offender.

    Nothing in 2 Pet.2:12 says Love Omnipotent will administer endless annihilation to any person. Next:






    The scriptures never speak of eternal or endless death. In fact death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

    If something so horrific as endless death or annihilation were meant, God had words He could have used to express it, but didn't. Such as "endless", "no end", "eternal"(aidios).
    Since He never chose to use such words re the final destiny of any unbeliever, He didn't teach endless annihilation or torments.

    For the outcome of those things is death. (Rom.6:21b, NASB)
    Those things result in death! (Rom.6:21b, NIV)

    Even though you experienced the end (or result or outcome) spoken of as death in Romans 6:21, that result for you did not cause you to be endlessly annihilated, did it? And neither
    will it for anyone else. For all will eventually be saved:

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.




    Souls are not made of "ashes". So the reference to "ashes" tells us nothing about the fate of souls in the afterlife. The passage speaks of what will be on a day, "the day" (v.1), not for eternity.

    Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

    Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever.

    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. (Mal.1:11)

    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."


    "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).

    Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."


    Pharoah flourished until God destroyed him. He will be resurrected, so is not destroyed for ever. Likewise with Sodom & the world in Noah's day.

    Psa.92:7 says the wicked will be destroyed AD(5704)AD(5703), "until" the "future". Your translation didn't even translate the word AD[5704]. It just left that word out, thereby changing the word of God. Shame!

    7 The wicked bud like herbage, And all contrivers of lawlessness blossom, But only that they be exterminated until the future, (Psa.92:7, CLV)
    Psalms Happy is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Who neither stands in the way of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of mockers. 92

    Psa.92:7 speaks of the wicked being destroyed, i.e. killed, put to death, "until" the "future". Not "until" "forever", which sounds like nonsense. Since all will be resurrected, we know from the Scriptures that they will not be dead "forever".

    Compare Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    For the Lord will NOT reject forever. Although he causes grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve ANYONE.

    continued next post...
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The same word for destroy in Mt.10:28 is used of the lost that Jesus said He is seeking to find. It is also used of the lost coin & sheep that were found & the prodigal son who was
    later saved. Therefore the use of the Greek word in question in connection to a person does not, in and of itself, prove such to be endlessly lost.

    In the Old Testament God made a man like a beast for 7 years until He restored him to sanity. God is able to destroy the soul (Mt.10:28) of a man in many ways, such as in the sense of bring it to ruin for the good of the sinner. He is able to destroy the flesh nature of man, the old man, the soul of the old Adam, that he be reborn in Christ a new creature, a
    new creation. That destruction could be an extremely painful experience for a long period of time in those who are especially hardened.

    "The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24...of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28;
    ..."(Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

    As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence": Definition of DESTROY

    For a mortal body to be ruined or destroyed in Gehenna it evidently involves dieing & being changed in its form, such as by being burnt to ashes & or smoke, etc. It still exists & is not annihilated since matter cannot be annihilated, only changed in its form. Not, at least, until God creates a new universe.

    What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

    Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

    If Satan & demons are there in the LOF to possess people, just casting them into the LOF could result in people being psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we
    cannot even imagine. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

    Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Otherwise why would the scriptures speaks of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostasized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

    A related matter to the understanding of Mt.10:28 is the use of the same Greek words for "soul" and "destroy" a few verses later in the context of the same chapter 10 of Matthew:

    Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it.

    Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

    By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul
    earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

    A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you
    won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    That is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after that passage.

    Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6).
    I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.




    (1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:

    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    (2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

    Isaiah 65-66: The Vision (Part 3) - Wasilla Bible Church

    (3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

    (4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

    “The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

    Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

    (5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    (6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

    "It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."

    Origen on the Salvation of the Devil

    7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.



    2 Thess.1:9 has Strongs #3639, olethron:

    "...ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation)."

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

    In 1 Cor.5:4-5 one is given to Satan for destruction[3639] of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. In 1 Tim.6:9 olethros is often translated "ruin".

    Other translations of 2 Thess.1:9:

    9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

    9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

    9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

    Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

    Destruction can be a good thing:

    ... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)

    "Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

    Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

    II Thessalonians 1:8-9


    In context David is praying for deliverance from his enemies - in this mortal life - on earth. The verse says nothing about the afterlife or final destiny. All those who "perish" from this mortal life in this world will rise again. They have not been endlessly annihilated.

    David is wishing for the death of his enemies. Compare Jesus' command to "love your enemies".



    "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).

    Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


    The devil is a spirit being so can't be turned into "ashes" & Ezek.28:18 is speaking of one (not Satan) who has already been turned to "ashes":

    By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. (NASB)

    Satan, OTOH, is not now "ashes" nor has he been (nor ever will be) endlessly annihilated.

    and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Col.1:20)

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


    ---


    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ious-torment-and-universalism.8019749/page-37
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is the "head in the sand" response.
    Since you have done all that research perhaps you have heard of the "etymological fallacy" which your post was? It appears that once you found the reference to "hel," it appears you did not look any further. Here is a quote from the Encyclopedia Brittanica

    Hel, in Norse mythology, originally the name of the world of the dead; it later came to mean the goddess of death. Hel was one of the children of the trickster god Loki, and her kingdom was said to lie downward and northward.
    Hel | Norse deity
    Note the name "hel" was "originally the name of the place of the dead." The Hebrew word "sheol" which refers to a place where sinners are punished in fire for "olam ad," for ever and ever, also refers to the abode of the dead.
    FYI if you had actually read my post I did give further explanation why your post is a logical etymology fallacy.
     
  13. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    You are formally correct, but my point is this, that if a term in the Bible has pagan roots, both as a concept and as a word in use since ancient times, we need to give it a hard examination. My own conclusion is that "sheol" is a good word, "hades" less so, and "hell" should not be in the Bible at all.

    I shall only add that, as a published poet, I am sensitive (some might say over-sensitive) to word use, both as a matter of sound, of rhythm and of meaning.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Meaningless to who? Humans continually act to avoid "temporary suffering" in this world. It means a lot to them. How much more should they act to avoid "temporary sufferings" postmortem which could last for eons.

    That says nothing about how long sufferings or punishment will last.

    That's like saying the efforts of the good Samaritan didn't matter.

    Already addressed above. Moreover, in your view, endless annihilation, the annihilated suffer nothing once they are annihilated. To what end is their sufferings before that when they have no chance of being saved? That would be unjust & sadistic of God to inflict such torments upon them for no salvific purpose.

    That's like saying saving a child from a pedophile sex abuser or torturing father "would not mean anything". Do you also consider all the Christian charities that help people to be meaningless?


    Is the - only - thing that matters to you trying to save people from endless nonexistence, because your "god" has a "temporary" love which expires for the lost after a few hours, years or decades? And in your theology the blood of Christ shed for many & their sins is also of "temporary" effect & a very quick expiry date. That's what the false teaching of endless nuking out of existence of souls requires. It's "god" is a Hitler who endlessly gasses out of existence those He hates for eternity.

    What is it that matters to you? Do you think your efforts will make a difference in how many people are saved during their mortal lives? That if it were not for you, Love Omnipotent would let anyone be lost?

    So but for the terrorizing threat of endless oblivion, your heart would rather be stuffing your face with unhealthy foods leading to sufferings in this life & living for your own worldly pleasures? IOW your religion is all about being motivated by fear? You'ld throw Christ in the garbage can & crucify Him afresh if endless punishment were not true?

    I find this sad.

    Yet you'ld end up suffering in "hell" postmortem while also reaping what you sowed for your sins premortem. And regret your decision to reject Christ. You'ld be extremely foolish to choose eating ice cream for a few moments over escaping what may be eons in torments.

    Yet that is exactly what your theology of endless oblivion for the lost teaches.

    Actually many people, even those who reject universalism, have thought similarly regarding various Bible passages.

    Actually, i know you're wrong.

    Why wouldn't your actions matter? That's quite revealing that you would only be for these things if it helped you avoid being endlessly annihilated:

    Even if there was no postmortem hell, your own conscience tells you you should repent & do what is right & loving. Even also the consequences of sin in this life should motivate you to repent, to say nothing of loving your neighbor, doing him no harm & returning love to Love Omnipotent Crucified Who loved you more than life itself.

    To the contrary. There is a "hell" to avoid. It makes perfect "sense".

    What do you think the many Christian charities do? Jesus went about doing good & healing those who were oppressed of the devil. The Bible says He did such things because He was "moved with compassion".

    Ruined things & people can often be repaired. Especially when Love Omnipotent is the Repairman.

    Nothing that is burned is ever annihilated, let alone annihilated forever. Fire often purifies things.

    12Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. 14If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. 15If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.

    Salvation isn't a "reward", it's a gift (Eph.2:8-9, etc). You don't earn it. You don't deserve it. Your complaint recalls the self righteousness of the prodigal son's brother when he returned home:

    25And his elder son was in the field, and while coming up, he drew near to the house; he heard music and dancing.26And having called near one of the servants, he began inquiring what these things might be.

    27And he said to him, ‘Your brother is come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him in good health.’

    28But he was angry, and was not willing to go in. And his father, having gone, was begging him.

    29And answering, he said to his father, ‘Behold, so many years I serve you, and never did I disobey a commandment of yours; and never did you give to me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30But when this son of yours came, the one having devoured your living with prostitutes, you have killed the fattened calf for him!’

    31And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32But it was fitting to make merry and to rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; and he was lost and is found.’”

    Also, I'm still waiting for a straightforward answer to this that makes any sense:

    So how did that answer this: When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)



    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?


    Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


    Addressed here:

    Matthew 7:21-23:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    Addressed here:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.


    A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.


    That passages opposes your theories:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compare:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

    Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?



    Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

    Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

    It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.


    None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


    All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


    ---
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you believed that & all babies go to heaven, why wouldn't your gospel be "make as many babies as you can & abort/kill them while they are still babies"?
     
  18. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I don't and never have, and I have never understood why some think that way.
     
  19. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    That is sick brother.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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