Do some believe babies go to Hell?

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But you are mistaking the fear of the Lord as fear or terror, yet the fear of the Lord is being in awe of Him and has nothing to do with FEAR as being afraid.

Come on now. Read Jude 1 again and what do you think is being described?
Does it talk about just some kind of awe of God or does it sound more like those who sin and they should be in fear of God because He will destroy or condemn them?
 
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twin.spin

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It is against forum rules to attack me, the poster. You may disagree with my belief and you can even call it false, untrue, or unbiblical, but to move it into the realm of saying that I am actively distorting God's Word is an attack upon me personally. It is inflammatory and or goading.

Here are the thread rules, if you are not aware of them:
  • Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.
  • When you disagree, address the context of the post and not the poster.
  • When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.
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You are moving it into derogatory realm, not I.

1) Scripture (2 Peter 3:16) -- not me -- decidedly uses the verbiage "distort".

2) I am addressing the context of 2 Peter 3:16

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable
people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
which is that false, untrue, unbiblical teaching doesn't limit itself.

3) I did post evidence and supporting Scriptures. Scriptures that routinely refute false teaching which promotes Millennialism, Decision Theology, Baptism doesn't save and so forth.
 
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You are moving it into derogatory realm, not I.

1) Scripture (2 Peter 3:16) -- not me -- decidedly uses the verbiage "distort". I sense that if Scripture had used an alternative such as " false, untrue, or unbiblical" your reaction would be no less.

2) I am addressing the context of 2 Peter 3:16

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable
people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
which is that false, untrue, unbiblical teaching doesn't limit itself.

3) I did post evidence and supporting Scriptures. Scriptures that routinely refute false teaching which promotes Millennialism, Decision Theology, Baptism doesn't save and so forth.

You said, I quote:

"2 Peter 3:16--God says those who distort Paul's letters will also distort other Scriptures. Not surprised then on the distortion of this as well."​

Are you not implying that I have distorted something here?

Yes, or no?
 
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twin.spin

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You said, I quote:

"2 Peter 3:16--God says those who distort Paul's letters will also distort other Scriptures. Not surprised then on the distortion of this as well."​

Are you not implying that I have distorted something here?

Yes, or no?
You said, I quote:
"Babies do not have the capacity to seek after God and to know about righteousness yet. They do not have any understanding yet because they are babies."

Comparing what you write to what Scriptures teach (2 Timothy 3:15, Psalm 51:6 as the Bereans did) … to conclude otherwise concerning that babies do not, it's obvious there are two different opinions being expressed.

2 Timothy 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures,
which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Because of your subsequent replies I've decided to let Scripture speaks for itself (2 Peter 3:15-16) and let it be as what Luther once said to Zwingli in conclusion:

"I am not your master, not your judge, not your teacher. Our spirit is different than yours;
we do not have the same spirit ... Teach as you wish to be judged before God" ~ Luther
 
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You said, I quote:
"Babies do not have the capacity to seek after God and to know about righteousness yet. They do not have any understanding yet because they are babies."

Comparing what you write to what Scriptures teach (2 Timothy 3:15, Psalm 51:6 as the Bereans did) … to conclude otherwise concerning that babies do not, it's obvious there are two different opinions being expressed.

2 Timothy 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures,
which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Because of your subsequent replies I've decided to let Scripture speaks for itself (2 Peter 3:15-16) and let it be as what Luther once said to Zwingli in conclusion:

"I am not your master, not your judge, not your teacher. Our spirit is different than yours;
we do not have the same spirit ... Teach as you wish to be judged before God" ~ Luther

I already explained these two verses to you. I am sure I can find a Modern Translation somewhere that you do not agree with in some particular verse rendering, too. Your Modern Translation quote of 2 Timothy 3:15 is erroneous. It is "child" and not "infancy." I trust the KJV and not some Modern Translation as my final word of authority because there are many evidences showing that the KJV is divine in origin (Just like there is evidence showing that the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are divine in origin).

Psalms 51:6 in the KJV does not use word "womb," either.
It is talking about his inner self, i.e. his heart, etc.
 
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You said, I quote:
"Babies do not have the capacity to seek after God and to know about righteousness yet. They do not have any understanding yet because they are babies."

Comparing what you write to what Scriptures teach (2 Timothy 3:15, Psalm 51:6 as the Bereans did) … to conclude otherwise concerning that babies do not, it's obvious there are two different opinions being expressed.

2 Timothy 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures,
which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Because of your subsequent replies I've decided to let Scripture speaks for itself (2 Peter 3:15-16) and let it be as what Luther once said to Zwingli in conclusion:

"I am not your master, not your judge, not your teacher. Our spirit is different than yours;
we do not have the same spirit ... Teach as you wish to be judged before God" ~ Luther

In other words, I believe you are quoting erroneous translations to fit your own personal belief (that from my perspective is cold and heartless).

Not all translations are correct. Take for example Revelation 13:1.

The NIV erroneously has dragon standing on the seashore when it should be the word "I" (implying John) standing on the seashore (See the KJV).
 
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Pneuma3

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Come on now. Read Jude 1 again and what do you think is being described?
Does it talk about just some kind of awe of God or does it sound more like those who sin and they should be in fear of God because He will destroy or condemn them?

That has NOTHING to do with the FEAR of the Lord. that scripture is talking saving those who are in terror/FEAR.

Kind of like saving you guys out from your eternal fire doctrine.

YLT reads
and some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted.
 
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That has NOTHING to do with the FEAR of the Lord. that scripture is talking saving those who are in terror/FEAR.

Kind of like saving you guys out from your eternal fire doctrine.

YLT reads
and some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted.

It says there those who save with fear.
The chapter deals in part with God’s punishment on evil.
I repented by the fear of the Lord.
Rahab was in fear of the Lord.

Joshua 2:9 says,
“And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.”

Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost, and a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about it.

So yes. It is real thing that you are simply trying to deny.
 
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Der Alte

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In other words, I believe you are quoting erroneous translations to fit your own personal belief (that from my perspective is cold and heartless).
Not all translations are correct. Take for example Revelation 13:1.
The NIV erroneously has dragon standing on the seashore when it should be the word "I" (implying John) standing on the seashore (See the KJV).[<ende
>
I agree with most of what you have said but I think you are mistaken about Rev 13:1. The word translated "I" in the KJV is εσταθη/estathē, "to stand," it is a verb, passive, indicative, third person, singular. It can mean he, she or it but not "I."
 
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In other words, I believe you are quoting erroneous translations to fit your own personal belief (that from my perspective is cold and heartless).
Not all translations are correct. Take for example Revelation 13:1.
The NIV erroneously has dragon standing on the seashore when it should be the word "I" (implying John) standing on the seashore (See the KJV).[<ende
>
I agree with most of what you have said but I think you are mistaken about Rev 13:1. The word translated "I" in the KJV is εσταθη/estathē, "to stand," it is a verb, passive, indicative, third person, singular. It can mean he, she or it but not "I."

See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own a person. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.

Why is this a problem?

Let's look at...

Genesis 22:17

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"​

Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore. It was clearly John.
 
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Pneuma3

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It says there those who save with fear.
The chapter deals in part with God’s punishment on evil.
I repented by the fear of the Lord.
Rahab was in fear of the Lord.

No it is talking about saving those who live in great fear and has nothing to do with the fear of the Lord.

Joshua 2:9 says,
“And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.”

That scripture is talking about being in terror of the MEN and has nothing to do with the fear of the Lord.

God is love and perfect love (which is God and knowing God) casts out fear
 
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Pneuma3

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Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost, and a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about it.

Again what does that have to do with the fear of the Lord? those scripture say nothing of the fear of the Lord they just explain that because Ananias and Sapphira died the way they did caused great fear to the people. That has NOTHING to do with the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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<Jason>See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own a person. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.
Why is this a problem?
Let's look at...
Genesis 22:17

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"
Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore. It was clearly John.<ende>
Three things wrong with this interpretation, if John understood the revelation in this way why did he use the wrong form of the word "to stand?" John used εσταθην/estathēn which means "he, she or it stood" instead of σταντος/stantos which means "I stood." See Acts 24:20 where "stantos" is correctly translated "I stood."
.....The second problem is John is not the promised seed.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Third, I have studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level and I have never heard that "stand on" means to own. The Hebrew word for "stand" is נצב/natzab none of the meanings include "to own."
 
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twin.spin

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In other words, I believe you are quoting erroneous translations to fit your own personal belief (that from my perspective is cold and heartless).

Not all translations are correct. Take for example Revelation 13:1.

The NIV erroneously has dragon standing on the seashore when it should be the word "I" (implying John) standing on the seashore (See the KJV).
Being that I haven't specifically stated my own personal belief other than to quote Scripture that refutes statements contrary to Scripture from certain individuals like yourself, your perspective is irrelevant … but expected.
 
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SamRF

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I don't know the answer to this, but the consensus here seems to be that they do go to heaven. I want to believe that but I have difficulty in making sense of it. The passages from scripture that claim one way or the other don't seem real proof to me when read in context.

Does that mean that babies who are born in environments where the gospel will never be preached or available are better off dead than ever grow up? Cause they won't be introduced to Christ when they do grow up so heaven won't be accessible then, but it is when they die as a baby?

It's really harsh to consider that babies would potentially go to hell, but outside of that there's the harsh established reality that we all deserve hell. We are sinful in nature due to Adam's original sin and Christ was sent to us as an immense grace from God, which we are to cherish with our whole being if we are to be saved. Salvation isn't owed to us at all, we don't deserve it whatsoever.

This means that your non-believing neighbour who's the kindest person you have ever met is also destined to hell, as well as people born into slave camps in North-Korrea who never heard the gospel. Why do babies deserve heaven then I wonder? Because they aren't accountable? People who never heard of the gospel seem to me just as unaccountable as babies when it comes to salvation. Why are babies special here? If you have never heard the gospel as adult you could never have made the choice to believe in Christ, yet you are still going to hell because salvation is not owed to anyone. I have then trouble processing how babies would get a pass nonethless.

I truly don't know at the moment. And I fear the subject is too emotional for many people to have a genuine look on it. (Maybe it's sinful pride that makes the idea of babies going to hell unfathomable?)
 
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Petros2015

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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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Do infants, small children, the mentally challenged etc. go to hell"
Posted Previously
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 
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St_Worm2

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I don't know the answer to this, but the consensus here seems to be that they do go to heaven. I want to believe that but I have difficulty in making sense of it. The passages from scripture that claim one way or the other don't seem real proof to me when read in context.

Does that mean that babies who are born in environments where the gospel will never be preached or available are better off dead than ever grow up? Cause they won't be introduced to Christ when they do grow up so heaven won't be accessible then, but it is when they die as a baby?

It's really harsh to consider that babies would potentially go to hell, but outside of that there's the harsh established reality that we all deserve hell. We are sinful in nature due to Adam's original sin and Christ was sent to us as an immense grace from God, which we are to cherish with our whole being if we are to be saved. Salvation isn't owed to us at all, we don't deserve it whatsoever.

This means that your non-believing neighbour who's the kindest person you have ever met is also destined to hell, as well as people born into slave camps in North-Korrea who never heard the gospel. Why do babies deserve heaven then I wonder? Because they aren't accountable? People who never heard of the gospel seem to me just as unaccountable as babies when it comes to salvation. Why are babies special here? If you have never heard the gospel as adult you could never have made the choice to believe in Christ, yet you are still going to hell because salvation is not owed to anyone. I have then trouble processing how babies would get a pass nonetheless.

I truly don't know at the moment. And I fear the subject is too emotional for many people to have a genuine look on it. (Maybe it's sinful pride that makes the idea of babies going to hell unfathomable?)
Hello SamRF, first off, since I see that you are a new member, WELCOME TO CF :wave:

As for your OP questions, unbelievers will not be judged on the basis of something that they neither know nor understand, rather, they will be judged on the basis of what they ~do~ know and understand of the law, even if that is nothing more than the law that God writes on our hearts.

Romans 2
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Unlike your kind, but sinful and unbelieving neighbor, unborn babies, infants, toddlers, etc., neither know, nor can they understand the law, even the law that God has written on their hearts, so there is no basis for His judgment and condemnation of them (also, the Bible tells us that we are judged on the basis of the sins that we've committed personally, not on the basis of our fallen nature).

God bless you!

--David



 
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