Do People Believe Homosexuality Still Abomination To God?

Hmm

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We are told by God and repeated by Jesus in the New Testament, that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Exactly! And that means to love our LGBTQ+ neighbours as ourselves. Jesus is radical and challenging.
 
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Albion

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I hear a lot of people single out the KJV as superior to the others. It’s got beauty in it that’s for sure.
I use CEV, NIV, GNT and the message.
I’d guess most of our discussions come down to what we think the meaning is
I won't argue against that thinking, but if we agree there, it's also the case that any Bible version is going to be confusing to some readers. That was my point.

So it's not as though there is a general solution to the alleged problem of the KJV being written in Elizabethan English using wording we no longer use, or etc. just by switching from it to a different Bible.
 
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hedrick

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Of course - I don't know what the original text says as I've never seen it and don't know the language. Even if I could read the text, I'd have to understand what the author was trying to say and why? - What does the author mean by "sex"?
I don't know Hebrew either, but I can tell you what commentators say.

"You shall not lie with a man as the lyings down of a woman” (Milgrom in the Anchor Bible)

On the last phrase, he comments "referring to vaginal penetration, i.e, defloration; hence, in this case it must indicate anal penetration; Olyan 1994: 183–85). It is a technical term (cf. 20:13). The plural is always found in the context of illicit carnal relations (Gen 49:4; Lev 18:22; 20:13); contrast miškāb (Num 31:18), the singular implying licit relations."

The word "sex" isn't there, but the meaning involves it.

He makes an interesting suggestion: "Thus since illicit carnal relations are implied by the term miškĕbê ʾiššâ, it may be plausibly suggested that homosexuality is herewith forbidden for only the equivalent degree of forbidden heterosexual relations, namely, those enumerated in the preceding verses (D. Stewart). However, sexual liaisons occurring with males outside these relations would not be forbidden." In general I don't follow interpretations that lack widespread scholarly support. That applies to this one. So my understanding would be that this prohibits anal sex. This isn't exactly synonymous with homosexuality, since (1) heterosexuals sometimes do it, and (2) there are other things homosexuals can do.
 
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pescador

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I won't argue against that thinking, but if we agree there, it's also the case that any Bible version is going to be confusing to some readers. That was my point.

So it's not as though there is a general solution to the alleged problem of the KJV being written in Elizabethan English using wording we no longer use, or etc. just by switching from it to a different Bible.

But the clearer the better IMHO. We think, read, and write in the language that you and I and everyone else on this forum (and elsewhere of course) use. Language conveys meaning and the more the communication is clearly understood the better. The KJV is very confusing, even to those who use it as their preferred Bible. People read it verse-by-verse -- it wasn't written that way -- and then "translate" it into the native language that they use to speak, read, and write every day, and invent doctrine to match.

I don't know anything about the sexual habits of the people of biblical times, but I do know that the ancient laws in the OT, including Leviticus and Deuteronomy, that some use to apply to 21st Century behavior, have no bearing on Christians (who are not under the Law). We are under grace and are told to love our neighbor (without exception). Until the Spirit tells me otherwise, I will follow God's leading to love people, just as He does, and not judge them.
 
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Bro.T

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Even though the first part of your post has nothing to do with the OP, I feel that I must respond to it.

You wrote, "I believe the Lord appointed 54 scholars to do the work instead of religious people. This made it possible for him to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek to English, without changing the meaning. In other words he made the Bible say the exact same thing, only in another language. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). Many modern day religious translators have attempted to interpret the Bible, instead of merely translating it. Therefore, when they translate the Bible they add, change or delete certain words to make it confirm to their religious doctrine."

You don't think that the 54 scholars were religious people? Do you really think that King James appointed lay people to translate God's word into the "Englyshe" of the day?

a) The KJV translation was based in part on earlier translations
b) The translators themselves expected their work to be modified over time (which has happened)
c) It is impossible to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek [and Aramaic] to English, without changing the meaning. The vocabulary, grammar, and syntax of the ancient languages cannot, repeat cannot, be translated into English without changing the meaning.
d) You wrote, "Many modern day religious translators have attempted to interpret the Bible, instead of merely translating it. Therefore, when they translate the Bible they add, change or delete certain words to make it confirm to their religious doctrine." The KJV translators, and all other translators, add, change or delete certain words to make it conform[not "confirm"] to their religious doctrine. I would strongly suggest that you try to understand what the art/science of Bible translation is all about.
d) You wrote, "I believe this is the original text, the original scripture." It is most definitely not.

I would suggest that you buy a modern translation such as the NIV, NET, or NRSV and let God speak to you in the language that you and I and many, many others read/write/speak every day. Perhaps then you will not be so quick to take 409-year-old English and create strange doctrine from out-of-context verses -- there were no chapters or verses in the original languages -- that justify your personal attitude toward homosexuals.

Finally, that section of the OT law deals with many sins, among them "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death." Why aren't you applying OT(!) law to adulterers? Shouldn't they be killed also?

We are told by God and repeated by Jesus in the New Testament, that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. I suggest that you give that a try.


With all the different Bible translations we have floating around, it seems a hard task for a new christian to choose the most accurate one. God was aware that this would happen and had John write, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19). Now I ask you, is this too hard for God to do? God has always worked through men, especially kings, to fulfill his word. During the days of Ezra he worked through Cyrus, King of Persia, to fulfill his word. "Now in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, that the word of the Lord might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, King of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it in writing..." (Ezra 1:1). The Lord worked through Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to such a great extent that he even called Nebuchadnezzar his servant although he was not a true servant of God. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.
And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
(Jeremiah 27:6,7). Therefore, it should not be hard to believe that God would use King James (another Gentile King) to fulfill his word. If God is God who can stop his purpose. Remember, contrary to popular belief, God rules in the Kingdom of men.


Finally, that section of the OT law deals with many sins, among them "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death." Why aren't you applying OT(!) law to adulterers? Shouldn't they be killed also?

This thread is about homosexuality and because of the title people would probable focus on that particular act of abomination and or sin. But Paul even says in Galatians 5: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So we see Paul no the law as well, we under Jesus priesthood and he given room to repent.


We are told by God and repeated by Jesus in the New Testament, that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. I suggest that you give that a try.

I am. I'm doing it right now. Actually this thread. Paul says Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 1 Corinthians 12:6. Loving your neighbor is tell the truth, warning people from evil or evil to come. Now whether a person believe what I preach is up to them. Paul says in Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good (Roman 12:9) You and I suppose to be on the same side, abhorring the evil, but your spirit go against people that abhorring the evil, on this subjest. I wonder who side you on, sometimes. The book says My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1John3:18) So, if you having a problem with someone about something and they telling the truth, let that be enough for peace. Lastly keep this in mind Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1John 2:15). Being in the word of God is a work in progress, repenting is not easy for certain situation in life. But the word of God have to be put forth so people can have a chance to change.
 
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Bro.T

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I find the KJV hard to read.

Seems 400 years is long enough to make it difficult to understand even though they are the same languages haha

I read that the old testament stuff was actually handed down orally for generations and compile several different sources?

I'd still like to know the answer to all the questions in my post. I guess it's up to each of us to pray, seek God's will and try our best to get it right. I can't say for sure I do have it right - to many unknowns and unanswered questions - maybe God will walk me through it when I die


I understand, what you saying reminds me of Acts 8: 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
 
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pescador

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With all the different Bible translations we have floating around, it seems a hard task for a new christian to choose the most accurate one. God was aware that this would happen and had John write, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19). Now I ask you, is this too hard for God to do? God has always worked through men, especially kings, to fulfill his word. During the days of Ezra he worked through Cyrus, King of Persia, to fulfill his word. "Now in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, that the word of the Lord might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, King of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it in writing..." (Ezra 1:1). The Lord worked through Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to such a great extent that he even called Nebuchadnezzar his servant although he was not a true servant of God. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.
And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
(Jeremiah 27:6,7). Therefore, it should not be hard to believe that God would use King James (another Gentile King) to fulfill his word. If God is God who can stop his purpose. Remember, contrary to popular belief, God rules in the Kingdom of men.




This thread is about homosexuality and because of the title people would probable focus on that particular act of abomination and or sin. But Paul even says in Galatians 5: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So we see Paul no the law as well, we under Jesus priesthood and he given room to repent.




I am. I'm doing it right now. Actually this thread. Paul says Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 1 Corinthians 12:6. Loving your neighbor is tell the truth, warning people from evil or evil to come. Now whether a person believe what I preach is up to them. Paul says in Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good (Roman 12:9) You and I suppose to be on the same side, abhorring the evil, but your spirit go against people that abhorring the evil, on this subjest. I wonder who side you on, sometimes. The book says My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1John3:18) So, if you having a problem with someone about something and they telling the truth, let that be enough for peace. Lastly keep this in mind Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1John 2:15). Being in the word of God is a work in progress, repenting is not easy for certain situation in life. But the word of God have to be put forth so people can have a chance to change.

I have no idea what you're talking about. None.
 
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BobRyan

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I read the verses you quoted. In the version I read it didn't call homosexuality an abomination. It called it disgusting.

To be fair - it didn't even call homosexuality disgusting - it said "it's disgusting for men to have sex with each other, and those who do shall be put to death".

Of course - I don't know what the original text says as I've never seen it and don't know the language. Even if I could read the text, I'd have to understand what the author was trying to say and why? - What does the author mean by "sex"?

So then you already admit that you need to rely on the scholars that do understand Hebrew and know how to translate it into English.

Ok.. so you get this much in your own post ""it's disgusting for men to have sex with each other, and those who do shall be put to death"

And also the Greek
Rom 1 :
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1 Cor 6:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Lev 18
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Now someone can make the claim that no matter how obvious the text - they still don't know what it says... everyone has free will and can ignore what they wish.

In Rom 1 and 1 Cor 6 there is nothing that says that the only way to observe these commands of God is to kill someone. I think we can all see the difference between the theocracy of the OT vs the non-Theocracy in the New.
 
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BobRyan

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Hello,
why is eating lobster a sin? I really don´t know.
Jonathan

This was a good answer

Leviticus 11:10
But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.

Leviticus 11:9-12
“These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat. But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you. You shall regard them as detestable; you shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is detestable to you.

Deuteronomy 14:1-29

“You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. “You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. ...
 
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Bro.T

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I have no idea what you're talking about. None.

Sounds like we be moving right along then, but lets take a look at something Jesus says in Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
 
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pescador

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With all the different Bible translations we have floating around, it seems a hard task for a new christian to choose the most accurate one. God was aware that this would happen and had John write, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19). Now I ask you, is this too hard for God to do? God has always worked through men, especially kings, to fulfill his word. During the days of Ezra he worked through Cyrus, King of Persia, to fulfill his word. "Now in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, that the word of the Lord might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, King of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it in writing..." (Ezra 1:1). The Lord worked through Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to such a great extent that he even called Nebuchadnezzar his servant although he was not a true servant of God. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.
And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
(Jeremiah 27:6,7). Therefore, it should not be hard to believe that God would use King James (another Gentile King) to fulfill his word. If God is God who can stop his purpose. Remember, contrary to popular belief, God rules in the Kingdom of men.




This thread is about homosexuality and because of the title people would probable focus on that particular act of abomination and or sin. But Paul even says in Galatians 5: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So we see Paul no the law as well, we under Jesus priesthood and he given room to repent.




I am. I'm doing it right now. Actually this thread. Paul says Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 1 Corinthians 12:6. Loving your neighbor is tell the truth, warning people from evil or evil to come. Now whether a person believe what I preach is up to them. Paul says in Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good (Roman 12:9) You and I suppose to be on the same side, abhorring the evil, but your spirit go against people that abhorring the evil, on this subjest. I wonder who side you on, sometimes. The book says My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1John3:18) So, if you having a problem with someone about something and they telling the truth, let that be enough for peace. Lastly keep this in mind Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1John 2:15). Being in the word of God is a work in progress, repenting is not easy for certain situation in life. But the word of God have to be put forth so people can have a chance to change.

You wrote, "You and I suppose to be on the same side, abhorring the evil, but your spirit go against people that abhorring the evil, on this subjest. [sic] I wonder who side you on, sometimes." Stop wondering; I am on the side of God. Be careful with your words against me or I may report you.
 
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pescador

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Sounds like we be moving right along then, but lets take a look at something Jesus says in Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

It would probably be a good idea if you followed these words of Jesus yourself.

BTW, BroughTea, my handle is Pescador.
 
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Bro.T

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You wrote, "You and I suppose to be on the same side, abhorring the evil, but your spirit go against people that abhorring the evil, on this subjest. [sic] I wonder who side you on, sometimes." Stop wondering; I am on the side of God. Be careful with your words against me or I may report you.

I thought you had no idea what I talking about, not sure why you replying now.
 
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pescador

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I thought you had no idea what I talking about, not sure why you replying now.

Because (again) I have no idea what you're talking about. Again... You wrote, "You and I suppose to be on the same side, abhorring the evil, but your spirit go against people that abhorring the evil, on this subjest. [sic] I wonder who side you on, sometimes." Stop wondering; I am on the side of God. Be careful with your words against me or I may report you.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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Now someone can make the claim that no matter how obvious the text - they still don't know what it says... everyone has free will and can ignore what they wish.
Probably should have said “... no matter how obvious the text is to me... “

??
My thinking was that even if I accept the English translation- I don’t really know the state of the author at the time (did they misunderstand God? Or bring their own twist on the matters they wrote about?)
Agreed on the freedom but. We all ultimately have to make sense of the scriptures ourselves one way or another
 
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BobRyan

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Probably should have said “... no matter how obvious the text is to me... “

??
My thinking was that even if I accept the English translation- I don’t really know the state of the author at the time (did they misunderstand God? Or bring their own twist on the matters they wrote about?)
Agreed on the freedom but. We all ultimately have to make sense of the scriptures ourselves one way or another

I agree that everyone has free will and if one has a preference to ignore something no matter how clearly it is stated - they can always choose that.

I think that is beyond question.

Even 2+2 = 4 can be viewed as "in doubt" if one is determined enough.

======================

By contrast there are things in the Bible that are impossible to fully understand - like the sun and the moon being made on day 4 of creation week in Genesis 1. God is infinite in power and knowledge and can just put them there at the snap of a finger - but just how it would happen is beyond us.

Just exactly how does an angel in Daniel 9 start his journey from heaven at the beginning of Daniels prayer in that chapter and arrive before it ends? how do they communicate from Earth to heaven so fast? are they using something related to entangled objects?

Or what exactly is going on in the 7 Trumpets in Revelation?

All that -- very confusing.

But the very simple concepts and sentence structure - in the Romans 1, 1 Cor 6, Lev 18 texts given above ... that is the easy part.
 
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I agree that everyone has free will and if one has a preference to ignore something no matter how clearly it is stated - they can always choose that.

I think that is beyond question.

Even 2+2 = 4 can be viewed as "in doubt" if one is determined enough.
Except I honestly question. I don’t just dishonestly twist. You’re assuming I twist when really I question
You’re assuming I’m just refusing to see what’s obvious.
 
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BobRyan

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My thinking was that even if I accept the English translation- I don’t really know the state of the author at the time (did they misunderstand God?

you insert doubt... and ... mind reading... as if this is some sort of requirement.

The text is super easy to read it is not even college level text...

So then you already admit that you need to rely on the scholars that do understand Hebrew and know how to translate it into English.

Ok.. so you get this much in your own post ""it's disgusting for men to have sex with each other, and those who do shall be put to death"

And also the Greek
Rom 1 :
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1 Cor 6:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Lev 18
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Now someone can make the claim that no matter how obvious the text - they still don't know what it says... everyone has free will and can ignore what they wish.

In Rom 1 and 1 Cor 6 there is nothing that says that the only way to observe these commands of God is to kill someone. I think we can all see the difference between the theocracy of the OT vs the non-Theocracy in the New.

you don't point to a problem in the text structure or meaning - you point to mind reading ... and then toss in the idea that no matter how simple and easy the point is that the author makes... what if is hearing is bad and he misunderstood God.

2 + 2 = 4 is not all that dependent on mind reading.

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In the OT - a prophet was asked for God's opinion about building the temple... the prophet gave it on the spot. Super easy to get the point. Then God contacts the prophet in a dream that night and tells him he was wrong - so that prophet goes the next day to David and says "I was wrong".

God would always have to do that for any prophet that He wanted to be viewed as "legit" if in fact they were stating something wrong about God's commands.

again... this is an easy and obvious point.

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I think you are confusing "I don't like what the Christian bible says" with - "the christian Bible is too hard to understand when it differs with my POV".
 
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you insert doubt... and ... mind reading... as if this is some sort of requirement.

The text is super easy to read it is not even college level text...



you don't point to a problem in the text structure or meaning - you point to mind reading ... and then toss in the idea that no matter how simple and easy the point is that the author makes... what if is hearing is bad and he misunderstood God.

2 + 2 = 4 is not all that dependent on mind reading.

==================

In the OT - a prophet was asked for God's opinion about building the temple... the prophet gave it on the spot. Super easy to get the point. Then God contacts the prophet in a dream that night and tells him he was wrong - so that prophet goes the next day to David and says "I was wrong".

God would always have to do that for any prophet that He wanted to be viewed as "legit" if in fact they were stating something wrong about God's commands.

again... this is an easy and obvious point.

===============

I think you are confusing "I don't like what the Christian bible says" with - "the christian Bible is too hard to understand when it differs with my POV".
It’s the meaning I’m after. Finding the meaning is not so simple for me as I suppose it is for you.

ultimately, you’ll have to form an opinion on what it all means- there’s no getting around that.
 
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