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Do not be deceived! We will suffer through the Great Tribulation!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by nagantmosin, Jul 29, 2003.

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  1. nagantmosin

    nagantmosin New Member

    27
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    Atheist
    "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to posess the kingdom" (Dan. vii. 21-22).
    The saints are persecuted by this satanic king. The horn here is the little horn of Daniel viii, which is described as the antichrist in Revlation also.

    "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time" (Dan. vii. 25).
    For 3 1/2 years the antichrist will be permitted by God to persecute the saints.

    "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help, but many shall join with them by flattery. And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time" (Dan. xii. 32-35).
    Many believers will be purified and brought closer to their Saviour through the suffering that the Adversary will inflict on them.

    "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. xii. 17).
    Who keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ, but us? There are some Jews that believe in Christ, but on the whole they have rejected Him. But one day "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. xi. 26).

    "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...here is the patience and faith of the saints" (Rev. xiii. 5-10).
    Again, the 3 1/2 years are mentioned as in Daniel. It is granted to the antichrist "TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS AND TO OVERCOME THEM". There is no massive, secret rapture of all believers before the great tribulation. There would be no christians left for the man of sin to persecute!

    "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
    And I said to him, "Sir, you know."
    So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...they shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat...God will wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Rev. vii. 13-17).
    They "COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION". Notice that hunger, thirst, and heat are suffered by these saints. Tears of suffering are wiped off their faces by God.

    "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (Mt. xxiv. 21-22).
    The Lord shortens the days of great tribulation for THE ELECT'S SAKE. These are christians who are alive during this time of calamity and persecution. He does it for THEIR SAKE.

    THE RAPTURE/CHRIST'S COMING IS AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION​

    "But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. THEN they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory. And THEN He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds..." (Mk. xiii. 24-27).
    Do we need to explain this passage or interpret it? No, it is very plain. Christ will not come until after the tribulation. The rapture does not happen until after the tribulation. Read it again, please. And again. Memorize it.

    "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God" (I Thess. iv. 16).
    "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMPET..." (I Cor xv. 51-52).
    WHEN IS THE LAST TRUMPET; THE TRUMPET THAT SOUNDS UPON CHRIST'S RETURN? THE SEVENTH TRUMPET, HERALDED BY THE OPENING OF THE SEVENTH SEAL (Rev. viii), AND PRECEDED BY THE OTHER SIX TRUMPETS OF JUDGMENT.
    "Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!'" (Rev. xi. 16).

    "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rev. xxii. 18-19).

    Please, if you have serious objections, include scripture to back up your claim so I can know where you get your convictions from. God Bless you and move you to study these passages with prayer so that you may accept the truth and grow in the Spirit.

    nagantmosin
     
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  2. CK Blue

    CK Blue New Member

    32
    +1
    I agree with you 100%.

    Have you ever studied the holocaust? Eerily, I have often thought that the millions who were killed in such an animalistic manner, were actually fufilling the first half of the fifth seal. I do not want to get off subject, but I want to stress to others that the HOLOCAUST that occured fifty years ago, was the WORST SLAUGHTER OF HUMAN LIFE, and can indeed be called a time of tribulation. And the bible clearly states that the GREAT tribulation will be far WORSE than anything that this world has ever witnessed. Something to think about.

    However, we are given some hope about this short time, when satan is cast down to the earth, to PERSECUTE THE SAINTS, and KILL THEM, like you quoted.

    Rev 2:10 FEAR NONE OF THOSE THINGS WHICH THOU SHALL SUFFER: BEHOLD THE DEVIL SHALL CAST SOME OF YOU INTO PRISON, THAT YE MAY BE TRIED; AND ***YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION TEN DAYS:*** BE THOU FAITHFUL**** UNTO DEATH***AND I WILL GIVE THEE A CROWN OF LIFE.

    Rev 3:10 BECAUSE THOU HAS KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE, I WILL ALSO KEEP THEE FROM ***THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION***WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD***TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH.

    Interesting that the tribulation (satans time on earth) is described as the hour of temptation; what is the STRONG DELUSION that God is sending to the whole earth?

    I believe it directly involves this:

    And then many shall be offended, and shall betray one another, and hate one another.

    And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

    Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son, and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death!!!

    What will be the reason for this?
    Greed
    Fear

    CK Blue
     
  3. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
    Married
    I agree:

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
     
  4. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    814
    +9
    Word of Faith
    Single
    US-Constitution
    Psalms 91;
    1. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
    2. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
    3. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
    4. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
    5. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
    6. Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
    7. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    8. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    9. Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
    10. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
    11. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
    12. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
    13. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
    14. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
    15. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
    16. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.


    Hmm...

    Somebody sure is lying!!! David told us, under the anointing of the Holy Ghost, that God would not let evil fall on those who dwell in the secret place of the Lord. Or could it be?

    Could it be that God is a respecter of persons?

    Nah! I think the reason the saints of the tribulation period suffer in this period of time is simply because they haven't had the time to grow in grace before the Lord, with all of the stuff happening in the world, of which they are still a part of. If your faith in God's promises isn't there because of all of the fear, then how can you expect God to deliver you out of evil? Even in this time, before the tribulation?

    If there is fear in your heart, Jesus can't do anything for you...I'll prove it. In the story of Jairus, his daughter was dying and he went to Jesus. Notice what Jesus said when they told Jairus his daughter was dead? Luke 8:50 50. But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. If Jairus had feared, then he would have lost his daughter!

    There are plenty of cases when we are told, in fact, commanded not to fear. The phrase "fear not" is used in the KJV 62 times, and is generally spoken to someone that God is getting ready to intervene or act in behalf of.

    So how come the saints of the tribulation period can't claim this promise, but we can in this day (pre rapture days)? Or is it because they never had the chance (on account of the turmoil of those days) to grow in the exercise of their faith?

    So who is lying?
     
  5. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

    +1,542
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I agree with about 90% of what you have posted nagantmosin but that 10% I don't see as any big wall between us. I haven't debated the subject of the rapture for some time now so bare with me but I can see we have a difference in opinion or rather interpretation of when this event will accure.
    "after that tribulation" I believe isn't refering to the whole tribulation period but I see Jesus here only referring to that tribulation he just got done referring to. I believe that the appearence of "the sign of the Son of Man" is different then "The wrath of God".

    In Matthew 24 I believe Jesus is only talking about the events we christians, the elect, will see during the whole tribulation period. After Jesus is done talking about the sign of the Son of Man, he goes into his parables of the 10 virgins and then of the talents. After that he then talks about the last judgement.

    I believe Jesus in his speach to his disciples in Matthew 24 only is that of what we christians must look for, these are the signs we will see.

    This certainly shows that we are at the end but there is one more event in the tribulation were we will not be present for accept maybe as witnesses looking on from above.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by out Lord Jesus Christ,

    Rom. 2:5, But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    notice term..."day of wrath"

    Ephesians 5:6, Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comeeth the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    John 3:36, He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Col. 3:6, For which things sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    Nahum 1:2, God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.


    I could go on because there's more scriptures that say the wrath of God is for the unrighteous but not for the righteous.

    In Revelation 19:11 we are told that Jesus is seen on a white horse and inRevelation 19:14 we read this, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and CLEAN. I believe we will be in this army. White and clean is referring to our new selves in our new uncorruptable bodies. We have been raptured already and have been washed clean of our sins foreverlasting.

    Rev. 19:15, And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    These passages I believe is showing us leaveing Heaven with Jesus to make war with the ungodless left on the earth. This will be at Amageddon
    Rev. 19:19, And I saw the beast, and the Kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    So as you can see we will not be appart of this wrath of God. We will be with Jesus as his army who the people of earth will be wanting to fight.

    The question I have asked and haven't gotten a satisfactory answer about is this. When does the wrath of God commence upon the unrighteous? Is it the pouring out of the vials? Is it the pouring out of the bowl judgments? Also when do these events in a timeline accure? I have remained open minded about all these questions I have but I do stand firm in my belief that the vials and the bowl judgments don't happen at the start of the 7 year trib nor even at the middle. I believe they will occure somewhere at the end of the tribulation period.
     
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