Do Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

[Rechtgläubig]

filosofer:

Thanks for posting the quotes from Melancthon. It seemed to me that the document was pretty clear as to what the writer's position was, namely, the Papacy being the Antichrist. Which was in agreement with what the majority of the other Reformers of the Reformation of the 16th century beleived.

One follow up question: Why is it that I don't hear the Lutherans sharing this belief much anymore?

Brooks

Well, see... ummm... it is kind of against the rules. Shhhh!

 

[BrightCandle]

Rechtgläubig:

I was wondering why Lutherans don't proclaim the Antichrist truths, that Luther believed, from the pulpit more in the Lutheran churches here in the USA, not necessarily here on the CF.

Brooks

 

[Carrye]

.

 

[SPALATIN]

I've not read anywhere in Lutheran doctrine that you are required to believe that. I know Martin Luther wrote lots of things like that, but at times he could even sound like Adolf Hitler with the Ariyan race thing . . .and we certainly don't enforce that! Luther is a good source for some things, but he'd be terribly unhappy with the Lutheran church of today.

SDA theology has nothing to do directly with Lutheran theology.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

Bridget,

Before saying anything more on Luther and his apparent dislike for the Jews in his later life I think there needs to be some context to the situation.

Luther felt that the Jewish people had been exposed to the truth of the Gospel long enough that they should have been recognizing that their Messiah was Christ after all. Because they had the evidence in front of them and didn't convert he felt they should not be given the time of day.

Germany was divided up into states with a Prince/elector running each state. Whatever faith the prince was was also your faith. Luther felt the Jews should go to their own state and not be allowed to be scattered throughout and in his words "teaching their lies" to those in the Christian states. He would have rather seen them put in their own state to worship their God as they please. I don't believe that he was racist in the same respect that Hitler was although Hitler tried to use some of Luther's writings to promote that idea which is why many think that Luther was a bigot.

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Rechtgläubig:

I was wondering why Lutherans don't proclaim the Antichrist truths, that Luther believed, from the pulpit more in the Lutheran churches here in the USA, not necessarily here on the CF.

Brooks

I have heard my pastor declare this from the pulpit, as well as in His bible studies.

 

[JMRE5150]

/mod hat on


OK folks, here goes...

Keep it on the subject of this Lutheran belief (and I remind all Lutherans and Non-Lutherans this is NOT a widely accepted Lutheran view on the Pope - although no Lutheran recognizes his authority whatsoever), and NOONE will turn this into a "Yes he is, No he's not" antichrist debate.

Sadly, Catholics and other denoms may not particularly LIKE this type of discussion or that SOME Lutherans do indeed believe this, but that shouldn't make it a forbidden topic. Lutheran's don't believe in purgatory, but we don't get worked up when Catholics talk about that, or how Luther was a heretic, etc. Actually, it seems that the discussion is on whether or not Lutheran still believe and preach that the Pope is the antichrist...not whether or not he is the antichrist. As long as it stays within those borders, it can stay.

IF HOWEVER, this topic vears EVEN SLIGHTLY into a bashing (and its darn near there right now) on the Pope or Lutheran beliefs, its shut down, erased, terminated, destroyed, etc. I will not tolerate Lutherans antagonizing the RC belief that the Pope holds authority in the church, NOR will I tolerate Catholics purposely coming here to post responses that are considered antagonistic just to have the thread closed. I'm watching this thread so close my eyeballs are bleeding. Keep it on the OP. Seriously. Anyone seen veering off that OP WILL get a warning or more. Anyone.


Robb

 

[JMRE5150]

I would also like to remind everyone on both sides about a little thing that may get in the way here in this thread: Pride

C.S. Lewis described Pride as "The Great Sin".

He went on to say that "pride may be the greatest of all sins. After all, pride made the devil who he is."

My point is, many folks want to lash out on either side, but is that lashing out on the other side a deeper desire to truly want the other person to see the beliefs you hold dear with sincerity and love? Or is it the devil working up one of his oldest tricks in the book, the subtlety of Pride?

Think of that before anyone responds, and again, stay on the OP.

Robb

 

[SPALATIN]

I agree with Robb, We need to stick to the OP subject on this or we are in danger of breaking our own forum rules on this. Having read Kittelson's biography, I can only speak about what is read there. According to Kittelson, Luther felt the office of the Papacy was that of the anti-christ.

I know that Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought that Hitler was the anti-christ (in a lot of ways he was).

 

[BrightCandle]

My desire is know what is truth as revealed in the Bible, and what sacred and secular history have to tell us as far as it fits into Bible prophesy. That is why I'm puzzled how Lutherans could in have any doubt as to who and what is the Antichrist as portrayed in Bible. You couldn't have a more direct and forceful founder of the Lutheran Church than Martin Luther. I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist, and we believe that inspite of Luther's faults, that he and the other Reformers of the 16th century were raised up by God to deliver a two fold message to the masses of mankind, namely, that Chrisitians are saved by faith and not works, and that the Papacy is the Antichrist. I quess that I'm puzzled why Lutherans are know more for the first part of Luther's message and not the second part. Some may say the second part is not necessary in our time, but the fact of the matter is that the masses of mankind don't even know who or what the Antichrist is, hence, the great need for enlightment from God's word as we approach the second coming of Jesus.

Brooks

 

[Carrye]

Keep it on the subject of this Lutheran belief (and I remind all Lutherans and Non-Lutherans this is NOT a widely accepted Lutheran view on the Pope - although no Lutheran recognizes his authority whatsoever),

Thanks for that clarification, Robb. I've been observing this thread trying to figure out that very thing - how widely accepted this belief is. I knew that other denoms think of the Pope and the Papacy as the Antichrist, but didn't know that it was common among Lutherans. I always think of Lutherans (and Orthodox) as my closest family, so I was a bit surprised to see this.

 

[KagomeShuko]

Bridget,

Before saying anything more on Luther and his apparent dislike for the Jews in his later life I think there needs to be some context to the situation.

Luther felt that the Jewish people had been exposed to the truth of the Gospel long enough that they should have been recognizing that their Messiah was Christ after all. Because they had the evidence in front of them and didn't convert he felt they should not be given the time of day.

Germany was divided up into states with a Prince/elector running each state. Whatever faith the prince was was also your faith. Luther felt the Jews should go to their own state and not be allowed to be scattered throughout and in his words "teaching their lies" to those in the Christian states. He would have rather seen them put in their own state to worship their God as they please. I don't believe that he was racist in the same respect that Hitler was although Hitler tried to use some of Luther's writings to promote that idea which is why many think that Luther was a bigot.

Ah. . .there's just so much. . .and I guess because of such things, Lutherans will always be considered "bad" people by some others.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[KagomeShuko]

Chrisitians are saved by faith and not works

Nothing against SDAs, but I was helping in an SDA church for awhile, and they certainly made a big deal out of works and what people did and didn't do. . .

 

[JMRE5150]

The topic of SDA's is not a part of the original post and its questions.

Stay on OP please.

Folks, dont want to be the bad guy here, but I'm doing my job that was asked of me. If we go off the topic again, I'll have to shut it down.

Robb

 

[BrightCandle]

Let me throw out another question: Have any Lutheran CF members ever heard the "Left Behind" end game preached and promoted in their churches? The reason that I ask, is that the "Left Behind" theology doesn't pin the title of Antichrist on the Papacy.

Brooks

 

[ByzantineDixie]

No Brooks, Lutherans are amillenial...so Left Behind preaching is strictly verboten.

And to make things very clear. WELS/ELS and LCMS Lutherans still teach that the seat of the papacy is the Antichrist. ELCA no longer maintains this position. They are the largest Lutheran body in the US. So it would be true to say the majority of denominations that bear the Lutheran name no longer subscribe to this position. BUT...of the Lutherns who maintain the most conservatives interpretations of our confessions...yep, the papacy is so defined.

Just facts presented...no opinion. Hope this is OK, Robb!

Peace

Rose

 

[SPALATIN]

Let me throw out another question: Have any Lutheran CF members ever heard the "Left Behind" end game preached and promoted in their churches? The reason that I ask, is that the "Left Behind" theology doesn't pin the title of Antichrist on the Papacy.

Brooks

Actually having read the series (with exception to the last book) he does give the papacy a rather evil destiny. In the first six books he has a newly appointed Pope being the puppet of the Anti-Christ until Nicholae doesn't feel he has a need for him any longer and has him destroyed.

 

[Carrye]

And to make things very clear. WELS/ELS and LCMS Lutherans still teach that the seat of the papacy is the Antichrist. ELCA no longer maintains this position. They are the largest Lutheran body in the US. So it would be true to say the majority of denominations that bear the Lutheran name no longer subscribe to this position. BUT...of the Lutherns who maintain the most conservatives interpretations of our confessions...yep, the papacy is so defined.

Just facts presented...no opinion.

Thanks, Rose.

 

[filosofer]

I knew that other denoms think of the Pope and the Papacy as the Antichrist, but didn't know that it was common among Lutherans.

Note, that there are two different things mentioned here. The official teaching of the Lutheran Confessions is that it is the Office of the Pope, not the individual Pope who occupies the Office, that is identified with the Antichrist.

 

[Carrye]

Note, that there are two different things mentioned here. The official teaching of the Lutheran Confessions is that it is the Office of the Pope, not the individual Pope who occupies the Office, that is identified with the Antichrist.

That was the impression I was getting, Filosopher. That makes sense to me logically - how could a doctrine that identified an individual pope as the Antichrist remain 500 years later. And yet it seems strange to me to say that the office of anything (Papal or otherwise) could be the Antichrist. It was always my understanding that the Antichrist was an individual.

I certainly thank you for your clarification. And actually, I appreciate the way in which most of you have conducted yourself in this thread. I've been an observer for a time now, and while I don't have to like the topic, it is interesting to hear your views/teachings. And I haven't seen any signs of Catholic bashing, which I appreciate more than I can say!

 

[sculpturegirl]

I am not sure if there is ONE anti-christ, or if there is a "spirit" of anti-christ that may inhabit more than one individual. That is, a deep spiritual lie, disguised as the truth and posining from within the church, leading many sheep astray.

That has been my understanding of anti-christ. If this is true, then it is understandable from Dr. Luther's point of view, the papacy (especially during the middle ages/ reformation!) would be considered anti-christ.