Do Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

[Cary.Melvin]

I hope that this question does not cause a problem but, do Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist? Or was it just a particular Pope?

Thanks,

 

[IowaLutheran]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer is LCMS and WELS yes, ELCA no. I'm not sure when the ELCA said this but I believe as a part of the Joint Doctrine on Justification in 1999, the anathemas against each other from the 1500's were lifted.

 

[IowaLutheran]

I was right. Since I don't have 15 posts yet I can't post links but the LCMS website confirms that they still believe the Pope is antichrist.

 

[SPALATIN]

I was right. Since I don't have 15 posts yet I can't post links but the LCMS website confirms that they still believe the Pope is antichrist.

Let's make sure that we are correctly defining this. I believe that Luther said it was the office of the Papacy that was considered the Anti-Christ.

 

[Protoevangel]

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2217

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

I've been wanting to ask the question. Why the different synods? And does anyone have links for LCMS, WELS, ECLA synods? Are there other synods?

Thanks.

PS. I finally found a copy of the Book of Concord. Do the different synods have different versions of this? Are there official verses unofficial versions? Thanks.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Scott, I have been taught also that the seat of the papacy is the antichrist...however, when I look at our LCMS brief doctrinal statement..that distinction doesn't seem so clear, although as it is stated it is clear that the implication does not lie with one particular pope. So, I guess by extension, the seat of the papacy seems the correct way of looking at it..

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

Incidently...Wyclif also thought the pope was the antichrist...when the pope took jurisdiction over worldly things and sought wealth and worldly power.

Peace

Rose

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I've been wanting to ask the question. Why the different synods? And does anyone have links for LCMS, WELS, ECLA synods? Are there other synods?

Thanks.

PS. I finally found a copy of the Book of Concord. Do the different synods have different versions of this? Are there official verses unofficial versions? Thanks.

There is a version of the Augsburg Confessions that was later altered to appease someone, somewhere. Sorry, I am short of time and can't look up the history...but that is why you will see some Lutheran churches identifed with the UAC letters for unaltered Augsburg Confessions. It is those unaltered confessions that are in our Book of Concord. To my knowledge there is only one Book of Concord, not variations thereof (although there are different translations...updated over time).

WELS, ELS and LCMS all claim adherence to the same Book of Concord. I don't know if ELCA claims adherence to the whole book or to just the Creeds, the Catechisms and the Augsburg confessions. I hope someone from the ELCA can address this.-----R

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Thanks LR. Im just trying to understand my Lutheran brothers and sisters! I just found both the LCMS and ELCA web sites. And I've got both an LCMS Church and an ELCA church in my home town. Im looking forward to visiting.

Will I encounter any problems visiting either as a Catholic?

 

[ByzantineDixie]

.

Will I encounter any problems visiting either as a Catholic?

Not at all! You will be surprised at how familiar it will seem to you. (I speak from experience as a former Catholic, born, bred and 8 years Catholic school with the strap marks by Sister Margaret Joseph to prove it! )

If you go to an LCMS congregation you will probably be asked to refrain from partaking in the Lord's Supper--similar to when I attend the Catholic church my brother and his family attend. If you go to an ELCA congregation you will be free to commune at their table.

Peace

Rose

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Thanks Rose.

Im not a baptised Catholic yet (taking RCIA as we speak) but I understand.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Hey Jason!

If you are not baptized yet then you should also refrain from taking the Lord's Supper at the ELCA church as well. That's really the safest and best route to go. OK?

Thanks-----R

 

[KagomeShuko]

I hope that this question does not cause a problem but, do Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist? Or was it just a particular Pope?

Thanks,

I've not looked into the doctrines, but I've attended an ELCA church almost all my life and I've always been taught to respect the pope, though we only look at him as yet another church leader and don't see him as infallible. I've never been taught that the pope or the seat of that Papacy was the anti-Christ.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[KagomeShuko]

Thanks LR. Im just trying to understand my Lutheran brothers and sisters! I just found both the LCMS and ELCA web sites. And I've got both an LCMS Church and an ELCA church in my home town. Im looking forward to visiting.

Will I encounter any problems visiting either as a Catholic?

As an ELCA member, I know that my church and the other ELCA churches I've attended have open communion and if you go up to partake of it, that it is accepted that you believe and that's all that matters. I've never treid to take communion in a MS church, but that's just because there aren't many Lutherans in this area of Louisiana and it just so happens that the MS church here has lots of unfriendly people. I've been to one in a city nearby for a youth event, and they were much nicer!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Bradford]

Thanks Rose.

Im not a baptised Catholic yet (taking RCIA as we speak) but I understand.

I'll just throw in, that, per RCC teachings, you should NEVER take the Eucharist at a Lutheran church- no matter if they will serve you or not. Something to do with Apostolic Succesion.

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Here is the WELS doctrinal statement on the Antichrist: http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=795&contentID=4441&shortcutID=5297

In short the answer is: "yes"

I've been wanting to ask the question. Why the different synods? And does anyone have links for LCMS, WELS, ECLA synods? Are there other synods?

Jason, WELS' website is www.wels.net

Incidently...Wyclif also thought the pope was the antichrist...when the pope took jurisdiction over worldly things and sought wealth and worldly power.

Rose the list is long, but if you want me to PM you some quotes, I can. There were many others.

 

[Flipper]

Incidently...Wyclif also thought the pope was the antichrist...when the pope took jurisdiction over worldly things and sought wealth and worldly power.

So, some popes could be an antichrist, and some not?

 

[SPALATIN]

As an ELCA member, I know that my church and the other ELCA churches I've attended have open communion and if you go up to partake of it, that it is accepted that you believe and that's all that matters. I've never treid to take communion in a MS church, but that's just because there aren't many Lutherans in this area of Louisiana and it just so happens that the MS church here has lots of unfriendly people. I've been to one in a city nearby for a youth event, and they were much nicer!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

May I ask how you know the people at the MS church are unfriendly? Did you take the time to get to know them? Maybe they just take some getting used to and don't give their friendship so easily. Please don't judge them if you didn't get to know them.

 

[Cary.Melvin]

From the Official Common Statement by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

1. On the basis of the agreements reached in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JD),the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church declare together: The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics" (JD 40). On the basis of this consensus the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church declare together: "The teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration" (JD 41).

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Does the Joint Statement of Faith on Justification between the Catholics and the Lutherans do away with the teaching that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

 

[Rechtgläubig]

From the Official Common Statement by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

1. On the basis of the agreements reached in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JD),the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church declare together: The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics" (JD 40). On the basis of this consensus the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church declare together: "The teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration" (JD 41).



​

Does the Joint Statement of Faith on Justification between the Catholics and the Lutherans do away with the teaching that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

Cary, your statement got me wondering. Does the bolded statement above apply to churches that refuse to sign the JDDJ?

I think from the WELS point of view, the anathemas from Trent and the teachings in the Catholic Catechism would have to actually be removed or lifted:

"Catholics have clarified the meaning of the ambiguity in public declarations and actions both before and after the signing of the Joint Declaration. There is nothing to clarify further. They publicly denounced "by faith alone" at the time of the signing but the Lutherans signed the document anyway.

Official Catholic teaching (which the Joint Declaration is not) is not ambiguous. The new Catechism of the Catholic Church , the official contempory guide for Catholic teaching, makes it very clear that forgiveness of sins and salvation are merited by faith and works in the following paragraphs."
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=6741&cuTopic_topicID=19

Also, Justification is only part of the problem...

The Reformers had two main reasons for labeling the pope as the anti-Christ. The first is that he usurps authority to change divine law, putting himself in Christ's place. The second is that he curses the chief teaching of the Bible, salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Both of these positions are unchanged since the time of the Reformation. In fact they are somewhat worse.


The papacy still makes and unmakes unchristian laws. It can change eating meat on Friday from not being a sin into being a sin, and from being a sin into not being a sin. The Bible says forbidding marriage is a doctrine of demons, but the pope forbids marriage to Roman Catholic priests. It forbids the remarriage even of innocent spouses who have been victims of adultery, but permits the guilty to attend communion if they obtain an annulment through the church. The list could go on.

After the Reformation the Council of Trent cursed anyone who believes that we are saved by faith alone. The Catholic church led by the pope still continues to teach salvation by faith and works together. The apostle Paul in Galatians teaches clearly that such a teaching is a denial of Christ.

In several important respects the teachings of the pope are worse today than at the time of the Reformation. In the last two centuries papal infallibilty has been officially proclaimed. Mary has been declared to be conceived without sin, and it is mandatory to believe that at the end of her life she was bodily taken to heaven.

The present pope is a champion of Marian devotion. The recent papal document Dominus Jesus managed to fit the two opposite extremes of false doctrine into one statement. On the one hand, it reaffirmed that claim that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. Lutheran churches that do not have apostolic succession are denied the status of "church." On the other hand, it states that heathen who do not know and believe in Christ can be saved. Those heathen who do live a life of good works can be saved as "anonymous Christians" even without faith in Christ. There cannot be more anti-christian doctrines than these.

Contemporary popes also accept evolution and critical methods of denying the character of the Bible as God's errorless Word. What makes the pope the Antichrist rather than simple an antichrist is the way he carries out his control over such a large part of the church over the whole sweep of church history. No other antichrist fits the marks in Daniel and Revelation.
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=6563&cuTopic_topicID=47