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Do Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by Cary.Melvin, Sep 7, 2004.

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  1. Cary.Melvin

    Cary.Melvin Roman Orthodox

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    I hope that this question does not cause a problem but, do Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist? Or was it just a particular Pope?

    Thanks,
     
  2. IowaLutheran

    IowaLutheran Veteran

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    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer is LCMS and WELS yes, ELCA no. I'm not sure when the ELCA said this but I believe as a part of the Joint Doctrine on Justification in 1999, the anathemas against each other from the 1500's were lifted.
     
  3. IowaLutheran

    IowaLutheran Veteran

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    I was right. Since I don't have 15 posts yet I can't post links but the LCMS website confirms that they still believe the Pope is antichrist.
     
  4. SPALATIN

    SPALATIN Lifetime friend of Dr. Luther

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    Let's make sure that we are correctly defining this. I believe that Luther said it was the office of the Papacy that was considered the Anti-Christ.
     
  5. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel A time comes when silence is betrayal.

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  6. Jason of Wyoming

    Jason of Wyoming Well-Known Member

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    I've been wanting to ask the question. Why the different synods? And does anyone have links for LCMS, WELS, ECLA synods? Are there other synods?

    Thanks.

    PS. I finally found a copy of the Book of Concord. Do the different synods have different versions of this? Are there official verses unofficial versions? Thanks.
     
  7. ByzantineDixie

    ByzantineDixie Handmaid of God, Mary

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    Scott, I have been taught also that the seat of the papacy is the antichrist...however, when I look at our LCMS brief doctrinal statement..that distinction doesn't seem so clear, although as it is stated it is clear that the implication does not lie with one particular pope. So, I guess by extension, the seat of the papacy seems the correct way of looking at it..

    Incidently...Wyclif also thought the pope was the antichrist...when the pope took jurisdiction over worldly things and sought wealth and worldly power.

    Peace

    Rose
     
  8. ByzantineDixie

    ByzantineDixie Handmaid of God, Mary

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    There is a version of the Augsburg Confessions that was later altered to appease someone, somewhere. Sorry, I am short of time and can't look up the history...but that is why you will see some Lutheran churches identifed with the UAC letters for unaltered Augsburg Confessions. It is those unaltered confessions that are in our Book of Concord. To my knowledge there is only one Book of Concord, not variations thereof (although there are different translations...updated over time).

    WELS, ELS and LCMS all claim adherence to the same Book of Concord. I don't know if ELCA claims adherence to the whole book or to just the Creeds, the Catechisms and the Augsburg confessions. I hope someone from the ELCA can address this.-----R
     
  9. Jason of Wyoming

    Jason of Wyoming Well-Known Member

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    Thanks LR. Im just trying to understand my Lutheran brothers and sisters! I just found both the LCMS and ELCA web sites. And I've got both an LCMS Church and an ELCA church in my home town. Im looking forward to visiting.

    Will I encounter any problems visiting either as a Catholic?
     
  10. ByzantineDixie

    ByzantineDixie Handmaid of God, Mary

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    Not at all! You will be surprised at how familiar it will seem to you. (I speak from experience as a former Catholic, born, bred and 8 years Catholic school with the strap marks by Sister Margaret Joseph to prove it! ;) )

    If you go to an LCMS congregation you will probably be asked to refrain from partaking in the Lord's Supper--similar to when I attend the Catholic church my brother and his family attend. If you go to an ELCA congregation you will be free to commune at their table.

    Peace

    Rose
     
  11. Jason of Wyoming

    Jason of Wyoming Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Rose.

    Im not a baptised Catholic yet (taking RCIA as we speak) but I understand.
     
  12. ByzantineDixie

    ByzantineDixie Handmaid of God, Mary

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    Hey Jason!

    If you are not baptized yet then you should also refrain from taking the Lord's Supper at the ELCA church as well. That's really the safest and best route to go. OK?

    Thanks-----R
     
  13. KagomeShuko

    KagomeShuko Wretched Sinner/Belovèd Child of God/Church Nerd

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    I've not looked into the doctrines, but I've attended an ELCA church almost all my life and I've always been taught to respect the pope, though we only look at him as yet another church leader and don't see him as infallible. I've never been taught that the pope or the seat of that Papacy was the anti-Christ.

    Stein Auf!
    Bridget
     
  14. KagomeShuko

    KagomeShuko Wretched Sinner/Belovèd Child of God/Church Nerd

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    As an ELCA member, I know that my church and the other ELCA churches I've attended have open communion and if you go up to partake of it, that it is accepted that you believe and that's all that matters. I've never treid to take communion in a MS church, but that's just because there aren't many Lutherans in this area of Louisiana and it just so happens that the MS church here has lots of unfriendly people. I've been to one in a city nearby for a youth event, and they were much nicer!

    Stein Auf!
    Bridget
     
  15. Bradford

    Bradford Fool on the Hill

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    I'll just throw in, that, per RCC teachings, you should NEVER take the Eucharist at a Lutheran church- no matter if they will serve you or not. Something to do with Apostolic Succesion.
     
  16. Rechtgläubig

    Rechtgläubig der Anti-Schwärmer

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    Here is the WELS doctrinal statement on the Antichrist: http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=795&contentID=4441&shortcutID=5297

    In short the answer is: "yes"

    Jason, WELS' website is www.wels.net


    Rose the list is long, but if you want me to PM you some quotes, I can. There were many others.
     
  17. Flipper

    Flipper Flippant Dolphin

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    So, some popes could be an antichrist, and some not?
     
  18. SPALATIN

    SPALATIN Lifetime friend of Dr. Luther

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    May I ask how you know the people at the MS church are unfriendly? Did you take the time to get to know them? Maybe they just take some getting used to and don't give their friendship so easily. Please don't judge them if you didn't get to know them.
     
  19. Cary.Melvin

    Cary.Melvin Roman Orthodox

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    From the Official Common Statement by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church


    1. On the basis of the agreements reached in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JD),the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church declare together: The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics" (JD 40). On the basis of this consensus the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church declare together: "The teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration" (JD 41).

    Does the Joint Statement of Faith on Justification between the Catholics and the Lutherans do away with the teaching that the Pope is the AntiChrist?
     
  20. Rechtgläubig

    Rechtgläubig der Anti-Schwärmer

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    Cary, your statement got me wondering. Does the bolded statement above apply to churches that refuse to sign the JDDJ?

    I think from the WELS point of view, the anathemas from Trent and the teachings in the Catholic Catechism would have to actually be removed or lifted:

    Also, Justification is only part of the problem...

     
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