Do lies make us deserving of death and hell? And why or why not?

Strathos

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The white person using the N word harms the black person by appropriating a culture that is not theirs. A healthy person parking in a handicapped spot harms the handicapped person who would have otherwise parked there. The criminal shooting the police officer can harm others that he would not have harmed if he had been shot and arrested.

What harm does God have inflicted upon him if a human tells me that I am deserving of punishment simply for being who I am?

Also, when black people use the N word, it can create a sense of connection between them, a shared culture. Handicapped people are also benefited by having disabled parking spots available to them. Society is benefited by having violent criminals stopped from committing further crimes.

What benefit does God get from telling us that we all deserve to die for things we have no control over?

God doesn't gain any benefit from it, but He still offers us eternal life even though we don't deserve it.
 
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com7fy8

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Have you ever read Genesis 38?
Thank you for taking your time to make yourself clear.

I have read it and fed on it, yes.

Lot was drunk so he did not know the girls were getting themselves pregnant with him . . . I understand.

And may be good old Judah was a bit under the influence. I don't know. Possibly, before she unveiled herself she got him into a dark night tent. I do not know, of course.

We also could talk about how Jacob married Leah without knowing until morning that she was not Rachel. Again, in that instance, after a wedding party and in the dark, he might have been a little unperceptive.

Now, you might have done better . . . of course :) But not all people are like you.

One idea is that someone needed to get her pregnant so the genealogy to Jesus could continue. And since Judah failed to use his sons for this, that left Judah.

And since we are in the "is lying worth of death" thread . . . I guess we might consider how she misled Judah, but he responded how he had been the wrong one.

And I think of this > he at least was willing to admit he was wrong. Possibly, his sons were not like this. That can make a difference.

circular logic:
To start with . . . with human beings, I keep discovering how they do not make sense. This does not mean they do not exist. I am speaking, of course, about ones I have gotten to know or to spend time with. And I would say God is more past finding out than we humans are.

So, I do not try to use logic in relating with humans, and I don't with God. And Romans 11:33 says His ways are "past finding out."

So, thank you for making an effort to make yourself clear. You have, I would say.
 
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Kylie

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God doesn't gain any benefit from it, but He still offers us eternal life even though we don't deserve it.

So God tells us we're horrible and deserve to suffer for all eternity and there's absolutely no benefit to anyone from him telling us that?
 
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Chris35

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It is immoral because the punishment does not fit the crime. Would it be moral to give someone the death penalty for stealing a car?

Do you believe I deserve death for lying or not living others?

One lie can lead many astray from God.

Do you believe liars should goto heaven?

Do you think God should allow deceit to be amoung his people?

The problem isnt that lieing brings death, it is that none of us meet the standard to enter heaven, and lying is one example of this.

What shall you do? Shall you ask God to let you be a liar and allow you to enter heaven anyway, or shall you ask God to remove your deceitful nature from your heart, so that you can enter?
 
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Par5

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Thank you for taking your time to make yourself clear.

I have read it and fed on it, yes.

Lot was drunk so he did not know the girls were getting themselves pregnant with him . . . I understand.

And may be good old Judah was a bit under the influence. I don't know. Possibly, before she unveiled herself she got him into a dark night tent. I do not know, of course.

We also could talk about how Jacob married Leah without knowing until morning that she was not Rachel. Again, in that instance, after a wedding party and in the dark, he might have been a little unperceptive.

Now, you might have done better . . . of course :) But not all people are like you.

One idea is that someone needed to get her pregnant so the genealogy to Jesus could continue. And since Judah failed to use his sons for this, that left Judah.

And since we are in the "is lying worth of death" thread . . . I guess we might consider how she misled Judah, but he responded how he had been the wrong one.

And I think of this > he at least was willing to admit he was wrong. Possibly, his sons were not like this. That can make a difference.

To start with . . . with human beings, I keep discovering how they do not make sense. This does not mean they do not exist. I am speaking, of course, about ones I have gotten to know or to spend time with. And I would say God is more past finding out than we humans are.

So, I do not try to use logic in relating with humans, and I don't with God. And Romans 11:33 says His ways are "past finding out."

So, thank you for making an effort to make yourself clear. You have, I would say.
And thank you for making yourself clear. It was exactly the kind of response I was expecting and you didn't disappoint.
You were simply making excuses for Judah's and Lot's behaviour and very poor ones at that. Being drunk is no excuse for having incestuous sex. Try using that as a defense in a court of law and see how far it gets you.
In randy old Lot's case, it was two nights in a row. It beggars belief that a man could possibly not realize he was having sex with his daughter.
Genesis 38 also shows that the biblical god is not too even-handed when he sets about killing people who have committed misdemeanors in his eyes.
Judah's first son is killed because he was "wicked". His second son was killed because he refused to get his brother's wife pregnant, yet Judah was able to get himself a prostitute, who was also his daughter in law, get her pregnant and on discovering she was pregnant ordered her to be burnt to death even though she was pregnant, and do so without so much as a slap on the wrist. Nice.
That Judah didn't have her killed when he discovered it was his child doesn't make him any less of a very unpleasant character. Of course, we only have his word for it that he didn't realize who he was having sex with in the first place.
You even suggested that maybe it was alcohol to blame for Jacob thinking he was having sex with a different person. These godly men sure seemed to have a big alcohol abuse problem.
You said I might have done better. Damn right I would. I don't use prostitutes and I don't have sex with my daughters and I don't demand someone be burnt to death. How about you?
You said at the bottom of your post that you don't use logic. I gathered that way before I reached that statement.
 
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com7fy8

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You were simply making excuses for Judah's and Lot's behaviour and very poor ones at that.
not excuses, simply what I think could have happened

I don't even drink. But I have been told people can go into a different state during boozing so they do not know what they are doing. Not all people are alike.

I have understood he was passed out, and the women used him during that time.

Being drunk is no excuse for having incestuous sex.
And being drunk with pride will be no excuse for however any of us have misrepresented anyone or God and His word.
 
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Par5

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not excuses, simply what I think could have happened

I don't even drink. But I have been told people can go into a different state during boozing so they do not know what they are doing. Not all people are alike.

I have understood he was passed out, and the women used him during that time.

And being drunk with pride will be no excuse for however any of us have misrepresented anyone or God and His word.
I still think you are making excuses. You are saying in Lot's case he was passed out because of booze and that was why his daughters used him during that time.
You are correct when you say too much booze causes people to act in different ways, but one act they couldn't perform when they were passed out would be the act of sexual intercourse.
You state that you are only saying what you think may have happened. I only stated what the bible said, and added my criticism of what I saw as the deplorable actions of the main characters.
I didn't make up the Genesis 38 story. It's in the bible. You do believe what the bible says, don't you?
But just as Christians justify biblical genocide, deny the bible condones slavery, they also make excuses for or justify the deplorable acts of their god and his favourites. The very kind of acts for which they condemn others.
 
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Kylie

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Because otherwise there is no hope.

But the only reason we have no hope is because God has told us we have no hope. It seems to me that if God hadn't said anything at all, we wouldn't be in the position of feeling hopeless about it.
 
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Strathos

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But the only reason we have no hope is because God has told us we have no hope. It seems to me that if God hadn't said anything at all, we wouldn't be in the position of feeling hopeless about it.

We are inherently disordered and sinful creatures. God offers us salvation anyway even though we don't deserve it.
 
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Kylie

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We are inherently disordered and sinful creatures. God offers us salvation anyway even though we don't deserve it.

You may believe that we are inherently sinful, but I don't see it that way. I see sin as being an imaginary crime thought up to convince people to take an unnecessary penance.
 
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Strathos

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You may believe that we are inherently sinful, but I don't see it that way. I see sin as being an imaginary crime thought up to convince people to take an unnecessary penance.

So you think humans are perfect and never do any wrong?
 
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Strathos

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No. But the word "sin" carries with it certain associations with religion (specifically, a crime against God) that I don't agree with.

It doesn't matter what you call it - we are flawed and not inherently deserving of eternal life.
 
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Kylie

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It doesn't matter what you call it - we are flawed and not inherently deserving of eternal life.

I'm gonna need more than just your say-so (or anyone else's, for that matter) before I accept that as a fact.
 
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