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Do lies make us deserving of death and hell? And why or why not?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by com7fy8, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    If your god was perfection he wouldn't have needs, yet he demands worship. Needs to put people to the test to prove their loyalty, such as telling Abraham to sacrifice his son. Even though he would stop the sacrifice at the last minute, being supposedly omniscient he would have known Abraham was loyal, so why put him through such an ordeal? Hardly the kind of test of loyalty you would expect from an omniscient and perfect being.
    A being who needs to show that Job would be his loyal servant no matter what befell him, by allowing Job's family members to be killed and his possessions destroyed, and all this just so as he could put one over on satan. Very egotistical.
    Not so sure about this god's omnipotence either. Apparently, he wasn't much help to Judah in a battle when faced with chariots of iron.
    Reading through the bible, death and destruction seem to be this god's answer to anything that upsets it. I don't associate death and destruction with perfection.
     
  2. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    We are his creatures. He created us out of his everlasting love, so we owe him our worship. God doesn't need us; his is already perfect. Creating the cosmos did not increase him. Destroying the cosmos would not decrease him. God is ageless, eternal, unchanging. He is perfect in all his attributes.

    The story of Job in particular is illustrative of the problem you're talking about, the problem of Evil. Why does it exist? Satan is a creature, created by God as an angel before he fell; so how come God allows Satan to exist? How could Satan commit evil if God created him?

    The first part of the answer is that God's ensouled creatures have free agency and volition. (Not free will; only God's will is truly free. Creaturely will is always constrained: by time, by place, by physicality, by limits, by extents.) Ensouled creatures (humans and angels) must be free to choose God, which means they must be free not to choose God. If there were no choice in choosing God, there would be no point or purpose in salvation. As a creature, you are not counted righteous if you have no choice in your righteousness; you are counted righteous when you exercise your God-given agency and volition to choose God's path.

    But this leads us to the second part of the answer: having been given a choice, some creatures choose to disobey God (commit evil). Satan and some of the angelic host rebelled against God and were thrown down into Hell. Eve rebelled against God in the Garden, and then induced Adam to rebel; and so mankind fell into sin and disobedience. We now exist in a fallen world. God does not promise us anything but pain and hardship in this fallen world (Genesis 3:16-19).

    God created us as a supreme act of love: he wanted others to share in his own wonderful presence. When we fail to choose God, we show tremendous disrespect to the perfectly holy God, our creator, and bring down his holy wrath.

    The sin of Adam and Eve caused the world to fall, and all humankind carries the pain of that original sin. But we are accountable only for our own sins, and are saved through the intercession of Jesus Christ as mediator. We are saved through faith by Christ Jesus, but we can still die in sin because of our fallen nature. "None is righteous; no, not one" we read in Romans 3:10. It is our fallen nature to sin, and so we must constantly work to go to Christ with a truly penitent heart and strive to imitate Christ in our daily lives. When we abandon Christ we become spiritually dead in our sin, and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Not just death of the body, which comes to us all, but spiritual death and an eternity in Hell.

    God did not bring Evil to the world, humans did. God does not inflict pain and harm on others, fallen humans do. God sees all and knows all; he will gather the righteous to him in the fullness of time, and there will be no more pain, no more sorrow, no more suffering.

    Our travails on earth feel long to us because we are small and limited and bound by the arrow of time; God has no such boundaries. He sees this glorious time to come because for him it has already taken place. His Kingdom, and the place of the righteous in it, is sure and certain. Our earthly life will be an eyeblink, a mere heartbeat, compared to the eternity we will spend with God.

    [EDIT] Calvinists will argue over whether believers can actually choose to come to Christ, or whether they are called to Christ by the irresistible action of the Holy Spirit (as one of God's elect). But this is too deep a topic for this post.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  3. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read Genesis 38? A tale of sex and death. God is only mentioned twice in this chapter, but on both occasions, it was to say that he had killed someone. Nothing new there then.
    Judah's first son for being wicked in the sight of the Lord, and Judah's second son for displeasing the Lord by spilling his seed because he had no wish to get his sister in law pregnant.
    The rest of the story is about Judah having sex with his daughter in law and getting her pregnant yet somehow he didn't know it was his daughter in law. He thought she was a prostitute. The name Lot springs to mind. Yet another godly man who didn't seem to know that he was having sex with a female family member.
    When Judah was told that his daughter was pregnant due to prostitution he demanded her to be burnt to death. That was until she informed him it was he who got her pregnant. What a motley crew.
    The only surprise is that god didn't use some more of his love to zap old Judah as well, but then, god works in mysterious ways.
    And, you are correct, this god of yours is definitely not human!
     
  4. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    Both of these responses seem like nothing more than special pleading to me. Also circular logic: God can act like that because he's God, and because he's God, he can act like that.
     
  5. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    It only seems "circular" to you because you are mortal and bound to both space and time. God is not. God is sufficient in himself.

    Since you declare yourself an atheist, though, I'm not sure why you keep picking at this particular issue. You may believe yourself to be a sovereign individual, created by the merest of chance out of the chaos of the cosmos; we believe you are a child of God. If we cannot agree on axioms, we cannot have a productive discussion. It ends up being a pointless "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" toddler argument.

    Let me ask this: what exactly did you expect Christians to tell you? Surely you know you are on a Christian discussion board? It's in the name and everything.
     
  6. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    And there's that special pleading again.

    If you tell me that I don't have a right to voice my disagreement about some aspect of Christian faith because I'm not a Christian, I hope you are doing the same to all those Christians who are very loud in their claims that evolution can't possibly be true.

    I've been listening to Christians answer this question for many years, and they keep saying the same thing. Special pleading and circular logic. I'd like to one day hear an answer that doesn't resort to one of those, but I've long since given up hope.
     
  7. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    Maybe you'd have better luck if you were a little open to the message? You come off as very hostile. It's hard to have an actual conversation without some kind of common ground.
     
  8. Triumvirate

    Triumvirate Well-Known Member

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    But contrariwise, if one is a liar, or just outright making crap up, they tend to annoy otherwise decent people.
     
  9. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    Open to the message? Open to the threat more like.
    Here's the deal, submit, or burn.
    It is difficult to find common ground with people who think that no matter what act of killing or destruction is carried out by their god, or at its behest, that act is good because they believe everything their god does is good.
    The bible gives an account of the slaughter of the Canaanites. No matter how barbaric they may have been considered to be, they were no more barbaric than the ones who slaughtered them. Not only did they kill the men, but the women, children, and infants too. All at the behest of the biblical god.
    Many times I have heard Christians try to justify the slaughter of the children and infants, saying that the innocent children would be put on the express elevator to heaven. Oh, that's alright then!
    Everything we know about the god of the bible is to be found in that book, and it never ceases to amaze me why anyone who has read that book would want to follow such a being. Temper tantrums and death on a whim seem to be the order of the day when it comes to this being.
    Don't be surprised if you think some people are hostile. The biblical god is like a mafia boss. Do his bidding and you will get by. Cross him and you're toast!
     
  10. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    Why do you take me disagreeing with your point of view as hostility?
     
  11. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    Well, let's look at a previous thing you said:
    You're getting the same answer because you keep asking the same question. Christians believe in God. If they didn't, they wouldn't be Christians. So in insisting that there must be some other answer to your question, you are essentially asserting that you are right and all Christians are wrong. And to do this on a Christian message board is the very definition of passive-aggressive hostility.
     
  12. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    So why are you hanging out and ranting on a Christian message board? Surely there must be other forums more amenable to your point of view, yes?
     
  13. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    So sorry if you don't like what I have said, but perhaps you should remember that the purpose of this particular forum is to give people the opportunity to express their point of view, Christians and non-Christians alike.
    So perhaps it is you who should go to another forum that you would find more amenable to your point of view.
    There are Christian only forums aplenty on this website you could visit where I have no doubt you will only hear what you want to hear, but better still, why don't you tell me why you disagree with my post? What is it that upsets you so?
     
  14. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    Blasphemy, heresy, calumny against Christians and their faith: pick one.

    But I am not particularly "upset". You are not the first (or the tenth, or hundredth, or thousandth) militant atheist I've come across. You are so common, in fact, that I tend to think of you (plural) as a genus rather than a group. A signature trait of this genus is projection: they accuse Christians of arrogance, ignorance, and cruelty while demonstrating all those traits themselves. And they almost universally display astonishing ignorance of the faith they hate so much while at the same time presuming to lecture actual Christians on how they should think and feel about their own faith. The arrogance and lack of humility is really astonishing (but not surprising).

    If you wish honest answers, you should ask honestly. If you can't manage to do this out of respect for the faith, then at least do it out of simple courtesy towards your fellow human beings.
     
  15. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    "Blasphemy, heresy, calumny against Christians and their faith" you said.
    Being accused of blasphemy and heresy doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's a very common accusation Christians make when they feel their faith is being criticized. It just shows they are not prepared to take any criticism. Any criticism of Christianity could be classified as blasphemy and heresy. It means nothing.
    As for being accused of calumny. You consider I make false statements simply because I don't agree with all the things you believe. Instead of telling a
    critic why the statements they made were false, you prefer to accuse them of arrogance ignorance, and cruelty.
    You talk about having respect for your faith. Why should I?
    I respect the right for someone to believe whatever they wish, but I am under no obligation to respect what they believe.
    In the meantime, I will continue to be critical of Christianity and the biblical god and there is nothing stopping you from telling me why you think I am wrong.
     
  16. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    And the fact that they can't explain why without resorting to logical fallacies is very revealing, doncha think?

    In any case, I find it very worrying that you seem to think there are some questions Christians just shouldn't ask.
     
  17. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    Let me have a crack at this. Of course you'll certainly reject my reasoning, but at least I gave you some.

    We'll start with the fact that the same actions are not always appropriate for different people. A black person using the 'n word' in a joking manner among other black people is different from a white person using it in an insulting manner against a black person, right? Or handicapped person parking in a handicapped parking spot is different from a healthy person doing so, correct? A police officer shooting a violent criminal is distinct from a criminal shooting a police officer, wouldn't you say? Similarly, God demanding our worship is different from a human demanding our worship.
     
  18. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    The white person using the N word harms the black person by appropriating a culture that is not theirs. A healthy person parking in a handicapped spot harms the handicapped person who would have otherwise parked there. The criminal shooting the police officer can harm others that he would not have harmed if he had been shot and arrested.

    What harm does God have inflicted upon him if a human tells me that I am deserving of punishment simply for being who I am?

    Also, when black people use the N word, it can create a sense of connection between them, a shared culture. Handicapped people are also benefited by having disabled parking spots available to them. Society is benefited by having violent criminals stopped from committing further crimes.

    What benefit does God get from telling us that we all deserve to die for things we have no control over?
     
  19. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    Or indeed, some questions that they just don't want to answer!
     
  20. RayJeena

    RayJeena ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    Rationalizations that fall under the "Turn or Burn" umbrella of thought seem to describe what the bible refers to as "the god of this world". But "the god of this world" will have The Lord of the Universe to answer to one day. The latter has more constructive ways of fixing what needs to be fixed wherever it even needs fixing; "turn or burn"/"love me or else" is beneath that Lord.
     
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