Do lies make us deserving of death and hell? And why or why not?

[com7fy8]

I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

do you believe I deserve death for lying?

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

It seems to me that God is concerned about what people deserve.

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish. Proverbs 19:9

No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. psalm 101:7

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Jn 8:44

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. Rev 21:8

 

[com7fy8]

It seems to me that God is concerned about what people deserve.

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish. Proverbs 19:9

I would say God is partly concerned about what people deserve. But there is much more to it.

For example, in the scripture which you have provided > I think the liar can perish, not because of the lies all by themselves, but because of all else which goes with the lying. And perishing is not the same as being punished. The perishing can come from a person's own evil nature breaking down. And in my opinion, the resulting degradation is much worse than the liar might deserve. But this is because sin is so unfair.

And a false witness can mean a person who on purpose lies in order to get an innocent person punished. In such a case, "you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother" > in Deuteronomy 19:15-21. This command of the resulting punishment, in this sort of a case, I think, can be for what is deserved; but it is not only about giving a person what is coming to him or her; but it is a measure to help prevent this from happening, in the first place.

 

[dqhall]

I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

Some people spoke falsely as that is what they were taught. Over a thousand years ago some thought the world was flat. Opposing opinions were rejected.

As some get older it is hard for them to remember as these senile people do not recall things with the greatest accuracy. Confusion abounds. God is a good guide. God gave sight to the blind. Seek first God’s kingdom and God’s righteousness and your needs will be taken care of.

 

[Ken-1122]

I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

Sometimes lying is the right thing to do

Ken

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I would say God is partly concerned about what people deserve. But there is much more to it.

For example, in the scripture which you have provided > I think the liar can perish, not because of the lies all by themselves, but because of all else which goes with the lying. And perishing is not the same as being punished. The perishing can come from a person's own evil nature breaking down. And in my opinion, the resulting degradation is much worse than the liar might deserve. But this is because sin is so unfair.

And a false witness can mean a person who on purpose lies in order to get an innocent person punished. In such a case, "you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother" > in Deuteronomy 19:15-21. This command of the resulting punishment, in this sort of a case, I think, can be for what is deserved; but it is not only about giving a person what is coming to him or her; but it is a measure to help prevent this from happening, in the first place.

In the end God thinks lying deserves punishment in hell. I find this immoral. The punishment does not fit the crime.

 

[Sammy-San]

I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

Lying implies its base and not ideal, which makes defending lying or taking it outside of a context of Gods holiness, a self contradictory statement.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.

AFAIK we all deserve death for being self centered, which we all are, when the command is to love one's neighbor as oneself. Unfairly calling someone a fool is deserving of death according to Jesus. Why would purposely telling falsehoods be less egregious?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

AFAIK we all deserve death for being self centered, which we all are, when the command is to love one's neighbor as oneself. Unfairly calling someone a fool is deserving of death according to Jesus. Why would purposely telling falsehoods be less egregious?

Why is it moral for death to be the penalty for being self centered?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Why is it moral for death to be the penalty for being self centered?

The command is to love your neighbor as yourself not love yourself then maybe do something nice for your neighbor once in a while if convenient. If one falls short of the mark( sins by not loving as one has been commanded ) one deserves death. How could God keeping his promises be immoral?

 

[Ken-1122]

The command is to love your neighbor as yourself not love yourself then maybe do something nice for your neighbor once in a while if convenient. If one falls short of the mark( sins by not loving as one has been commanded ) one deserves death. How could God keeping his promises be immoral?

I suspect it is that type of logic that causes many atheists to despise religion; particular Christianity.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The command is to love your neighbor as yourself not love yourself then maybe do something nice for your neighbor once in a while if convenient. If one falls short of the mark( sins by not loving as one has been commanded ) one deserves death. How could God keeping his promises be immoral?

I am not asking if god keeping his word is immoral. I am asking if one deserves death for lying or not loving others.

It is immoral because the punishment does not fit the crime. Would it be moral to give someone the death penalty for stealing a car?

Do you believe I deserve death for lying or not living others?

 

[grasping the after wind]

I suspect it is that type of logic that causes many atheists to despise religion; particular Christianity.

If one is unhappy with the truth they will often resent those that speak it.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I am not asking if god keeping his word is immoral. I am asking if one deserves death for lying or not loving others.

It is immoral because the punishment does not fit the crime. Would it be moral to give someone the death penalty for stealing a car?

Do you believe I deserve death for lying or not living others?

I am a Christian , therefore, for me, it is God who decides what is fair, what is moral, who deserves what punishment for opposing Him and I get no say nor is it my business to judge what you deserve. I just don't argue with Him any more than a worker bee would consider arguing with the Queen Bee. He is, after all, infinitely more superior to me than a Queen bee is to a worker Bee. As an atheist, you hold to your own morality but do not proselytize me to accept yours over ours and in turn I won't proselytize you to accept ours over yours.

 

[durangodawood]

I am a Christian , therefore, for me, it is God who decides what is fair, what is moral, who deserves what punishment for opposing Him and I get no say nor is it my business to judge what you deserve. I just don't argue with Him any more than a worker bee would consider arguing with the Queen Bee. He is, after all, infinitely more superior to me than a Queen bee is to a worker Bee. As an atheist, you hold to your own morality but do not proselytize me to accept yours over ours and in turn I won't proselytize you to accept ours over yours.

OK, lets say thats true. You are still dealing with statements in the Bible made about Him by people. You can argue against those, right?

And even if you believe the bible comes straight from God, there's Genesis 32:22–32:
But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

OK, Jacob may have been a very great man. But he was still "worker bee" right?

 

[Halbhh]

It seems to me that God is concerned about what people deserve.

A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish. Proverbs 19:9

No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. psalm 101:7

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Jn 8:44

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. Rev 21:8

This is an example of why we need a Redeemer!

None of us are good enough on our own, on our own merits. We cannot fully make up for our wrongs, but need forgiveness!

But those that are truly converted change and the change is ongoing. We become born anew, and can walk in the spirit and it's easier to do what is right with His help. But, when we do at times turn the wrong way or stumble, we can confess and be forgiven, because we (with sincerity) confess -- and that's 'amazing' grace pretty often, for many of us. It is humble to admit one has done wrong, and a true confession leads to change, with His help. So, it's not that we were perfect, nor that we are already fully perfect, not either one, but that we are being redeemed, if we are willing to follow Him, even though we stumble at times.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I am a Christian , therefore, for me, it is God who decides what is fair, what is moral, who deserves what punishment for opposing Him and I get no say nor is it my business to judge what you deserve. I just don't argue with Him any more than a worker bee would consider arguing with the Queen Bee. He is, after all, infinitely more superior to me than a Queen bee is to a worker Bee.

Why is it just because God is superior to you in some way that you cannot evaluate Gods morality on your own? It does not follow that because God is superior in power lets say that he is superior in morality.

As an atheist, you hold to your own morality but do not proselytize me to accept yours over ours and in turn I won't proselytize you to accept ours over yours.

I am not proselytizing. I am giving my perspective and asking about yours. You can believe whatever you want I am just asking why you cannot question Gods morality.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is an example of why we need a Redeemer!

The only reason we need a redeemer is because your God says so. He set up the rules to send people to hell for lying and then says believe in me and I will forgive the punishment.

None of us are good enough on our own, on our own merits. We cannot fully make up for our wrongs, but need forgiveness!

Not good enough to be loved by god? It seems that God will not love us unless we are perfect. And the perfect me is not me at all. So if I get to heaven that will not be me there but a perfect me. And if my wife is in heaven that will not be her either. She could never be happy knowing I am in hell. If she is happy then God changed her into another person.

If we lie or steal and it hurts someone else we need to make amends with that person if we can. That is how we receive forgiveness from the person that was wronged.

But those that are truly converted change and the change is ongoing. We become born anew, and can walk in the spirit and it's easier to do what is right with His help. But, when we do at times turn the wrong way or stumble, we can confess and be forgiven, because we (with sincerity) confess -- and that's 'amazing' grace pretty often, for many of us. It is humble to admit one has done wrong, and a true confession leads to change, with His help. So, it's not that we were perfect, nor that we are already fully perfect, not either one, but that we are being redeemed, if we are willing to follow Him, even though we stumble at times.

Yes and no need to make amends to the people you may have hurt or offended in some way. If I steal from someone I can just ask forgiveness from god and be OK. No need to make amends from the person we stole from. Gods plan is not about making things right but to punish sinful behavior. That is all He requires for someone to be punished, either the person or Jesus. I don't think that is real justice.

 

[Halbhh]

I couldn't help but notice you've done what we've all done: responded before you noticed that the question you were asking was answered in the same post you responded to. I've done it, we've all done it. Ask me to write shorter if I'm too wordy though!

None of us are good enough on our own, on our own merits. We cannot fully make up for our wrongs, but need forgiveness!

To which you asked:

Not good enough to be loved by god? It seems that God will not love us unless we are perfect.

But that post said:

But, when we do at times turn the wrong way or stumble, we can confess and be forgiven, because we (with sincerity) confess -- and that's 'amazing' grace pretty often, for many of us. It is humble to admit one has done wrong, and a true confession leads to change, with His help. So, it's not that we were perfect, nor that we are already fully perfect, not either one, but that we are being redeemed, if we are willing to follow Him, even though we stumble at times.

Hope that is more clear now?


But there is a new question you raised that is significant:

This part is significant, and I did not already address it --

Yes and no need to make amends to the people you may have hurt or offended in some way. If I steal from someone I can just ask forgiveness from god and be OK. No need to make amends from the person we stole from

Look and see for yourself how that worked in this account:

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Luke 19 NIV

Does that help? It's the amends you were asking about. It's quite clear. This is an example to us, to not only repent, but also to work to undo wrongs we have done as possible.

Finally, you speculated about "God's plan" --

Gods plan is not about making things right but to punish sinful behavior.

Actually, we read that God's plan was from even before the world to send a Savior to redeem us from our wrongs instead of punishing us from them, if we will merely take responsibility and admit we've done wrong, and turn to him seeking forgiveness.

If we turn and repent, then He will freely pardon -- there are so many various verses throughout the Bible saying this in a variety of ways, and ask if you want a few.

 

[Ken-1122]

If one is unhappy with the truth they will often resent those that speak it.

Also if one is unhappy with lies, they will resent those who tell them.