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Do Jews still exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DamianWarS, May 3, 2020.

  1. BlessedCreator

    BlessedCreator Salvation=Obedience

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    The 144,000 of Revelation are not literal Israelites from the 12 tribes. We must remember Revelation is full of symbolic language. It is speaking of the entirety of God's elect, all true Christians that will be saved. (read commentaries from some of the great theologians such as Ellicott & Barnes here: Revelation 7:4 Commentaries: And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:)

    A question concerning the main topic of this thread:
    Are there any prophecies concerning literal bloodline Jews that have not been fulfilled?

    If not I would have no reason to think there would be any literal remnant of bloodline Jews left. If there is, there obviously then would be reason to think to the contrary.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  2. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    Jews who are Jews by Genetics can be messianic or still waiting for the messiah... They are both Jews....

    It's not the same as being born Catholic or Protestant.....

    My wife's family is Italian... very Catholic... She didn't have to do anything.. she just started coming to church with me.. We were married by a protestant minister and he had no issues...

    If you are a Jew.. from the line of Israel... you will always be a Jew.. You can practice any messianic, non messianic, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever.. but your still of the Jewish line.

    God is not insulted by any of this..

    He is only sad that people don't accept what His son did for them..

    We are all, in this time of grace.. either those that have accepted Christ and achieved salvation through Him.. or we have not.

    When the end of this age comes.. things will be different. God will recognize 144,000 of the original line who will convert to being believing messianic Jews.
     
  3. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    There is... the 144,000 literal Jews who will be converted...
    Can you show me the scripture that you are reading to convince you that these are not literal?

    It even indicates that there will be 12,000 from each tribe..

    Kinda hard to avoid that.
     
  4. BlessedCreator

    BlessedCreator Salvation=Obedience

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    And I heard the number of them . . . Translate, And I heard the number of the sealed: there were a hundred and forty and four thousand sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. There are two or three questions which these verses suggest. What are we to understand by the number twelve thousand from each tribe? Who are these who are drawn from the tribes of Israel? Why is there a change of the order and name of the tribes? It may help us to clearer thoughts to take the second of these questions first. (1) Who are these one hundred and forty-four thousand? An answer to this has been partly anticipated in our previous comments; but perhaps a fuller consideration is needed. Some have thought that the sealed ones must be Jewish Christians: i.e., they are disposed to take the twelve tribes literally. The scope of the previous verses seems decisive against this view. The time of judgment and trial is drawing near; we have seen the tokens of the coming storm in the opening of the sixth seal; our wish is to know the lot of the saints of God; this chapter answers this wish: they are safe, having the seal of God. Now, to limit the answer to the Israelitish Christians is to break in abruptly upon the general flow of thought with a bold literalism. The sealed ones are explained to be the servants of God; the description which follows proclaims them to be the “Israel of God.” It would be a strange leap away from the subject to introduce a sudden limitation of thought. Nor is there any necessity for doing so. Israelitish and Jewish names are freely adopted by the sacred writers, and used in a spiritual sense without any explanation of such usage; and the Apostle most emphatically laid down the principle that “he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter” (Romans 2:28-29); and the principle he applies by affirming that in Christ “there is neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28). The Christian Church absorbs the Jewish, inherits her privileges, and adopts, with wider and nobler meaning, her phraseology. She has her Jerusalem, but it is a heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22): a Jerusalem from above (Galatians 4:26): a new Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2; see Revelation 3:12); and to that Jerusalem of God the true Israel of God, the chosen generation and royal priesthood of every age, turn the eye of faith. It is needless to say that this view does not rob, as it has been said, the Jew of God’s promises; it only intensifies those promises by showing the growth of that Church in which the Jew may yet find the truest consummation of his holiest and highest hopes, and into which God is yet able to graft them in again (Romans 11:23; Romans 11:25-26), and in which he may yet play a part loftier than men dream of. (2) How are we to understand the numbers? As we cannot adopt the literal interpretation of the tribes of Israel, still less can we admit a literal interpretation of the numbers here mentioned; but they are not on this ground to be looked upon as meaningless numbers: there is an appropriate symbolism in the numbers of the Apocalypse. Twelve is used as the number of those who in every age have been called out to witness for some truth which the world needed. Thus the twelve tribes of Israel were the appointed witnesses of a pure theology and a pure morality in the days of idolatry and license; and later, the twelve Apostles became the inheritors of a similar, though higher, spiritual work in the world. The number twelve, then, stands for a world-witness of divine truth; and the fruits of this world-witness is a wide and sustained success: the twelve multiplied by the twelve a thousand-fold—“the native and not degenerate progeny of the Apostles apostolically multiplied” (Mede, quoted by Dr. Currey). The skeleton organisation is twelve, the college of the Apostles; the one hundred and forty-four thousand represent the growth into full numbers of the choice ones of God. (3) Does the change in the order and names of the tribes symbolise anything? The alterations are not without significance. They are briefly these: The tribe of Dan is omitted, and the name of Ephraim does not appear, but the number is made up to twelve by two representatives of Joseph: Manasseh, who stands sixth in order, and Joseph (superseding the name, but representing the tribe of Ephraim), who is placed eleventh on the list. The number twelve is maintained to show that in all changes God’s purposes stand. The omission of one tribe and the changed name of another are designed to show that in the Church, as in Israel, the most splendid opportunities may be lost. Dan, once a tribe, and not an insignificant tribe, which had reared its heroes, gradually lapsed into idolatry and immorality, dwindled in numbers and importance, and at length disappeared, and as a tribe became extinct. Its omission in this list is a silent but emphatic comment on the sacred warnings: “Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” “Begin not to say we have Abraham to our father: God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” Similarly, Ephraim, as has been suggested by a thoughtful writer, who exalted himself in Israel, is now lost in the greater name of Joseph. (Comp. Hosea 13:1; Hosea 10:11; Luke 18:14.) The order of the names is altered. Reuben no longer stands first: Judah has taken the firstborn’s place; and Levi, though named, does not occupy the third, the place of his birthright, but the eighth place. Here, again, the changes have their teachings. The unstable Reuben, with all his splendid advantages—the firstborn, the excellency of dignity and the excellency of power—failed to hold his own among his brethren; the fatal instability of his character accompanied his history, and weakened his otherwise pre-eminent powers; yet weak and erring, the type of the brilliant and vacillating, he is not an outcast altogether, but finds place, and high place, among the servants of God. Judah, lion-like, resolute, and strong, wins the foremost place; from him springs the true Ruler, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, to unfold the counsels of God, and to rule the world with a righteous sceptre. Levi’s subordinate position is thought to be due to the fact that the Mosaic ritual and Levitical priesthood are at an end. This may be so; the changes are the result of the actual history of the tribes, and illustrate how in the Christian Church, as in the Jewish, privileges may be lost, opportunities seized or cast away, offices and functions used for a time, and then laid aside when their work is accomplished; but in all and through all changes, God’s unchanging purpose runs onward to its certain close. The grouping of the tribes is, as has been pointed out, in the order of closest kinship: “We find not one violent separation of those who are naturally united, where both are truly members of the Israel of God” (Rev. C. H. Waller, Names on Gates of Pearl).-Ellicott on Rev 7:4
     
  5. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I think you missed much of what I mentioned in the beginning of my reply. I do not deny that Jews are an ethnic people, rather I deny that they are any different than Gentiles in these last days. If they are without Christ, they are not God's people.

    Also, Jews do not have tribal affiliation any longer. You think that they are secretly this or that tribe, but it has been two thousand years, they likely had to intermarry for survival in exile. They have mixed marriages for centuries to keep the "bloodline" going, which is as tainted as the Samaritans they once in antiquity rejected as being Israelites on basis of their mixed heritage.

    Jews in antiquity would reject many Jews today for being mixed with the Gentiles for centuries.
     
  6. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi if you trust the scriptures then of course there are Jews. In Jer 31 right after the promise for the new covenant God makes an oath saying that as long as the son and moon endure Israel will not cease to be a nation in God's eyes. Then the LORD makes a parallel statement saying that he will not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done.
    Now Jer 31 ends with a promise that Jerusalem will be rebuilt at at time when dead bodies are filling the valleys and that from that time on it will be holy to the LORD and not torn down ever again. Jer 31 this rebuilding is tied to chapter 30 which is the day of Jacob's trouble yet he is saved out of it. God knew the Jews would reject Jesus but Jesus has work to do.
    Here is the prophecy from Luke 1 of Jesus mission. 0 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

    67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
    68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people,
    69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
    In the house of His servant David,
    70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
    Who have been since the world began,
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies
    And from the hand of all who hate us,
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
    And to remember His holy covenant,
    73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
    74 To grant us that we,
    Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
    Might serve Him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
    This salvation and deliverance is accomplished at the 2nd coming see Zech 14 Dan 7 Isaiah 61 to see it fulfilled.
     
  7. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Not the point at all! Jews were native to JUDEA. You seem not to understand how the land was partitioned. In fact Jordan was supposed to take the "Palestinians" in exchange for land and once they got their land they then refused. Agenda?
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Jews are Jews, no matter their mixing. Also, throughout the centuries, there have always been converts, even 2000 years ago. There was a mixed multitude in Exodus. Jews are mainly from Judah, Benyamin and Levi today.
     
  9. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    I disagree.. They, IMO, will always be "God's" people.. They have a habit of going away from Him and being brought back.. going away and being brought back... It's a cycle.

    During this time of grace, yes, there are two kinds of people.. Saved and not saved.. But God has not forgotten them.. In the GT they are mentioned again.

    He has made their nation strong again. We are to bless them... The whole timeline of the end times is centered around His people and their land...

    It was only through miraculous events that Israel as a nation exists today... God's hand is on them.

    This is true... However, many know exactly which tribe they are from.... Some, want nothing to do with the old history... Some are very tuned in and proud of who they are..

    It takes all kinds.
     
  10. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    From a covenantal perspective, a Jew is,
    1) one by bloodline to be a Jew, that is either his/her mother or father is a Jew by bloodline
    2) one circumcised if he's a male
    3) choose to abide by the Mosaic covenant the best he can

    At least the 2 million Orthodox Jews today are still abiding by the Mosaic Covenant with effort. There could be other Jews actively practicing Jewish customs as well.
     
  11. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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  12. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi your conclusion is completely in error. The Bible paints a clear before and after picture of national Israel for the end of the age. The before people are said to have been gathered back out of all the nations in which God has scattered them a 2nd time.
    They are brought back to the mountains of Israel which have long been desolate. God promises this people brought back that He will remove the reproach of the nations from them and will give them a new heart. The LORD notes that these people brought back will have profaned the name of the LORD in all the nations where they were scattered. The LORD says he brought them back for his own names sake and He will be hallowed in them and that they will know in that day that He is LORD>

    Your premise that these covenants apply to the church fail badly when you look at the volume of passages speaking of the same transformation of Israel and Jerusalem. Jer 30 speaks of the day of Jacobs trouble there is none like it. In mathew 24 Jesus also speaks of a day like no other. Your camp applies this to 70
    AD when in fact it points to the 2nd coming. Jer 30 says Israel will be saved out of this great day. Jer 30 is connected to Jer 31 as it points backwards noting in that day...what day? the day of Jacob's trouble that Jer 31 is talking about. God knew Israel would reject Jesus and right after the promise of the new covenant which their rejection in Jesus day led directly to the events of 70AD God affirms that Israel will not cease to be a nation and the God will not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Jer 31 ends with the city Jerusalem needing to be rebuilt at a time when the valley is full of dead bodies. And from this rebuilding it will never be thrown down again and it will be holy.
    Zech 14 shows the day the LORD is king over all the earth and it is a day when Jerusalem has been overrun and half the city captive. This matches Rev Armageddon being future and the LORD himself slays the enemies and in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel's Joseph moment when Jesus is understood to be God incarnate. If you look at Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance of God again shows the before and after picture and is Zion central. So does Dan 7 showing Jews being persecuted for a time times and half a time until the son of man who is before the ancient of days is sent to save and inherit the kingdom that covers the earth and has no end. Again the LORD is not king and Satan is not bound until this transition.
    In Rev the angels declare the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdom of our LORD and His Christ and He shall rule them forever. It notes that when the beast is thrown into the lake of fire that Satan is bound for 1000 years and the nations who were deceived will no longer be deceived for 1000 years and when the 1000 years is over the release of Satan brings in one more rebellion where they do surround Jerusalem and then fire comes down from heaven and that is it. World history shows that the righteousness expected when the LORD returns and Satan is bound has not yet happened. We are marching toward this pivotal juncture now. Read the chapters and look outside and consider Hosea 3 and Luke 1.
    Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
    Luke 1 0 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

    67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
    68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited and redeemed His people,
    69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
    In the house of His servant David,
    70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
    Who have been since the world began,
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies
    And from the hand of all who hate us,
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
    And to remember His holy covenant,
    73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
    74 To grant us that we,
    Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
    Might serve Him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

    Here is Jesus mission taking throne of David after Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice. Now Israel had the sacrifice in Jesus day and had had it for quite some time. Now it has been many years without king or sacrifice and Israel has everything prepared to resume the sacrifices. By the way the other prophecy related to this in Hosea is in that day in the valley of Jezreel which is another name for Megiddo is those who were called not my people shall be called sons of the living God. Note once again before and after.
    In Luke we see the promise of the throne of David mentioned. Lets amplify what the LORD said in Isaiah about the child given to sit on the throne.
    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of His government and peace
    There will be no end,
    Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
    To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
    From that time forward, even forever.
    The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Think about it the before and after picture again that is being told. when he takes the throne the government will be on his shoulders and peace comes. From that time again a before and after picture that matches the LORD not taking the kingdom until the 2nd coming.

    Luke 1 Zacharias refers to Jesus keeping the covenants and oaths of God to dleover Israel from their enemies and from that time of deliverance they will worship and serve the LORD without fear and be holy from that time on forever.

    This before and after picture matches literal 2nd coming as Dan 7 and zech 14 show and matches Rev and keeps all the promises as isolated literally and if this literal sense makes sense why seek any other sense.

    Current events show the return of the sacrifices coming and a world economy that soon it will be evident to all we are heading for a days wage for a quart of wheat while a 5 G surveillance system is being tied to mandatory vaccines which will be implementing a ID that will track you and can be scanned. This type of technology will be used by the one world order and the man who will head it. I can ad hundreds more isolated prophecies that all fit this literal interpretation by just noting what is said and believing it.
    Very long post and yet it barely touches the surface of all the relevant prophecy to consider.
     
  13. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    No, we are most definitely not all Gentile. My ancestry is Ashkenazi Jew (from Russia) and Sephardic Jew (from Spain). Yes, there really are Jews today, even if you can't accept it. BTW, what's your ancestry? Are you sure you don't have any Jewish genes?
     
  14. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I only know my ancestry by origins of my last name. I have no doubt I have jewish genes but I also have no knowledge of it. My intent is not to discredit an ancestral identity or any right to it.

    From reading Rom 11 I see there are natural branches and grafted in branches which made me question if there really are any natural branches left and what exactly makes up a natural branch?

    From a genetic perspective perhaps someone can say there are "mostly" Jew but I even doubt that since all the diasporas are going to have an effect of watering down the blood. Even if you trace each male back to Abraham the genetics can be very dissimilar and of course this would be the same to virtually all people groups, however since Hebrews are among the oldest (with lots of diasporas in their history) they also are probably among the most varied.

    I use the term Gentile in a way that no one today has claim to a natural branch and all come as grafted in. As someone who identifies their ancestry as Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jew (both the result of a diaspora) how do you feel about this? As a believer do you identify more as a natural branch via your Jewish roots or as one grafted in feeling your Jewish roots don't contribute to this? That answer is simple for me... I'm grafted in... but perhaps it is more of a challenge for others.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  15. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I am definitely grafted in. Even though I have Jewish ancestry and was Bar Mitzvah I had a very unhappy childhood. I prayed a lot to God to help me in my suffering but nothing changed -- with one main exception: I fell in love and got married 51 years ago! I was an atheist until I was 34. I was hospitalized in 1977 with severe asthma and was healed by Jesus; I became a Christian right then and there. God had mercy on me and allowed me to be grafted in to His "olive tree". I have remained in Him since then and he has blessed me in many ways, the most important being my wife, children, and grandchildren.
     
  16. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member Supporter

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    I disagree.

    [Rom 11:1-2, 11-12 NASB] 1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? ... 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!​

    Further, that Jesus' return will not occur until the Jews come back to faith in Him.

    [Mat 23:37-39 NASB] 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'""​

    I say "back" to faith in Jesus because the Jews were the originators of faith in Christ.

    [Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

    Salvation by faith alone apart from the Law originates with Abraham's covenant of faith 430 years before the law of Moses was given. It is a Jewish covenant. The ONLY way to qualify for salvation is to qualify as a descendant of Abraham. The Jews are the natural "branches" of that family, but Christians are the grafted in branches of that family tree. Yet - God has not rejected the Jews for it says:

    [Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

    So lets look at this covenant or promise God made to Abraham:

    [Gen 17:4-10 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.​

    You must see this promise (the covenant of salvation by faith) and say that A) the way to inherit salvation is by becoming a descendant of Abraham, and B) that it is an everlasting covenant (a dispensation without end), and C) that the land of Israel and Jerusalem is promised as an everlasting possession of the descendants of Abraham.

    Again, I disagree. God has guaranteed the promise to both lineages of Abraham... the natural seeds (Jews) and the adopted seeds (Christians). As Pslam 69:28 says, the Jews are ALREADY written in the Lambs book of life (because they are born there), but if they do not believe in Christ, they will be blotted out. Unlike Gentiles who are not born with their names in the book of life, but rather are written there after their adoption into the lineage of Abraham.

    If God told us about the natural things and we didn't believe, then how will we believe the spiritual things? The Jews are the natural branches, and if they believe they can be grafted back in the same as us... but they are grafted back in as natural branches, not as wild branches. It will be required before Christ will return... and He will not return until it is accomplished.

    [Rom 11:19-27 NASB] 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

    At some point, the dispensation of the Gentiles will end and God will return his attention to the Jews. It must happen before the end. God is not done with them yet. The time of the Gentiles started with Pentecost when the Spirit was given to the church. Many have prophesied that this year - 2020 - in which we've had a real Passover where the Plague of the Wuhan Virus began to diminish on Jewish Passover - and for the first time since the original Passover in Egypt, all of Israel were shut up in their homes on Passover - many have prophesied that the real Passover would be followed by a real Pentecost... in which the Spirit of God will fall on the earth as it did at the original Pentecost which birthed the church. Does this mark the end of the age of Gentiles? I don't know. Maybe.

    Consider there are 24 elders in Revelation... 12 disciples of Christ, and the 12 sons of Jacob. Both sets of descendants.
     
  17. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    is this season of provoking jealousy still happening?
     
  18. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member Supporter

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    Yes, the season is still happening. Jesus said "I will not return until Jerusalem says 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'." Jerusalem still reject Jesus.

    Additionally, that passage in Romans 11 says "all of Israel will be saved, and He will remove the ungodliness from Jacob." This hasn't happened yet either.

    Check out this video by Eitan Bar - one of the leaders of the Ministry One For Israel.


    In his words, he says "after 2000 years of silence, the gospel is now being preached again to the Jews. Up until a few years ago, Jewish Israelies coming to believe in Jesus as the Messiah was extremely rare. When Israel was established as a state again, there were only 30 believers in Jesus in Israel."

    He specifically says how he and many others were moved to jealousy by Christians he'd met.
     
  19. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Anti-semitism, written by a confused Gentile.
     
  20. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    No you are not. This is excellent information.
     
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