Do Jews still exist?

[Jack Terrence]

The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, will convert during the tribulation... There may have been 144,000 conversions earlier as well... but the final 144,000 will populate the millennial age after the Great Tribulation.

If you want to argue or debate that.. best start another thread... It is not the topic of this one.

First, it was YOU brought up the 144,000 and I replied. Second, if you are not an admin, then you have no business telling me where I must post a comment.

There is no future tribulation. John said,

I, John, your brother and companion in THE tribulation and the kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 1:9).

The 144,000 are called the "firstfruits unto our God" (Revelation 14:4).

So, yes, they were saved in the past tribulation.

 

[DamianWarS]

You are contradicting yourself. If our debt was nailed to the cross, then all the ceremonial rituals were nailed to the cross too for the ceremonial rituals were a reminder of sin.

Why exactly is something that is a reminder of our sin demand to be abolished? the ritual contributes nothing to salvation but that doesn't mean it is abolished it just means it's meaningless towards salvation. Practice it if you so desire but give glory to God in doing so. I don't practice it nor do I encourage it but are we to call it outlawed?

Luke says that Paul circumcised Timothy because of the unbelieving Jews. They would not allow an uncircumcised man to teach in their synagogues. Paul wanted Timothy to assist him in preaching. It was for the sake of the gospel Paul circumcised him. "To the Jew I became a Jew that I might gain the Jew." Paul was carrying the decrees from the apostles and elders which stated that circumcision was no longer binding. You should comment on Paul's actions in their historical context. I find your commentary to be very shallow.

if nailed to the cross then it started at the cross. abolished is a hard no, with no exceptions and it's the wrong language. Timothy is using circumcision to minister to Jews, something that could still be used today and something that would be in violation of if it was an abolished practice. something abolished is not allowed to be repeated.

as Paul says "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." Do you know what else is nothing? all rituals we keep because when we do them with the wrong focus we discredit the gospel, it is no different with circumcision. What's abolished would be seeking salvation through circumcision, just as it would be seeking salvation through any ritual but the act is not abolished because the act is nothing.

 

[DamianWarS]

The same authority that allowed Israel to be re born as a nation and the language to be reborn.. and who saved them at their inception as a nation during the six day war.

Simple test... Only the priests of the tribe of Levi... can carry the ark.. so... when they find it.. and these guys carry it.. it will be solidly proven.

the ark is destroyed. Whatever they carry or find will be a copy. and even if not, it's not indian jones... nothing will happen. back to the OP, how do these priest fit into the olive tree of Rom 11?

 

[JacksBratt]

First, it was YOU brought up the 144,000 and I replied. Second, if you are not an admin, then you have no business telling me where I must post a comment.

Yes.. in post #66 I stated that

"There are no less than 144,000 real true honest to goodness Hebrew Jews that will convert in the end..."

This is in direct response to the OP.

You, arguing about your "preterits" views in regard to when the 144,000 are converted.. and, even in this post below... that there is no future tribulation..

That is a totally different topic... that can go viral here.. .and has....

So, if you want to argue with people on that subject.. go ahead...

I'm no "admin" but it is common courtesy to keep to the main topic of any thread...

Yep... I have no right to demand you do anything..

I do have the right to suggest that you raise your "preterits" arguments in their own thread.

Out of politeness of course.

 

[JacksBratt]

the ark is destroyed. Whatever they carry or find will be a copy. and even if not, it's not indian jones... nothing will happen. back to the OP, how do these priest fit into the olive tree of Rom 11?

It's been destroyed? Really? Do you have proof of this?

How will the anti Christ carry out the "abomination that makes desolate" if the Temple has no Holy of Holies with the ark?

 

[DamianWarS]

It's been destroyed? Really? Do you have proof of this?

How will the anti Christ carry out the "abomination that makes desolate" if the Temple has no Holy of Holies with the ark?

Because neither of those can exist any more in the form they once were. Even if found, it's nothing and any power coming from it will not be from God.

 

[Dave L]

but what about the branches on the olive tree of Rom 11? are the uncircumcised natural branches broken off because they are uncircumcised or are there other criteria?

Believers are Israel grafted into the place of the unbelievers whom God replaced.

 

[Dave L]

what's nailed to the cross is our debt not the ritual of circumcision. I'm not suggesting physical circumcision is a requirement or a proponent of salvation but it certainly isn't abolished and if it was it would be a little odd for Paul to say it's abolished then tell Timothy to get circumcised.

It is in Biblical Israel. It's believers only. Timothy fooled the wicked Jews trying to kill Paul for teaching against circumcision.

 

[1213]

there has been a number of Jewish diasporas over the centuries, most notable the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and subsequent exile. A lot of time has passed and since then Hebrew has become a dead language since the 2nd century (now revived only a little over 100 years ago). Over this wide spread of people to distant lands, time and loss of identity is there really any such thing as a Jew today? or are we all Gentile?

In Bible there is two way to see is one a Jew or not. One is the basic circumcision and other is the circumcision of heart.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

I believe world has both of those.

 

[JacksBratt]

Because neither of those can exist any more in the form they once were. Even if found, it's nothing and any power coming from it will not be from God.

Really? And on what evidence or scripture do you base this view?
From what I understand, God can leave or give power to anything or any one. Not that it needs its power to do what they want..

There is a theory, well supported, that the way the ark was built made it a capacitor or a battery..

A university in the states tried to build an ark based on the biblical description.. they had to abort the project due to the electrical hazard.

"Many articles can be found claiming that The Ark, as it is described in the Bible, can be used as a high voltage capacitor. The bigger the box the more powerful the charge."

This is from:

The Real Ark of the Covenant

 

[Jonaitis]

there has been a number of Jewish diasporas over the centuries, most notable the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and subsequent exile. A lot of time has passed and since then Hebrew has become a dead language since the 2nd century (now revived only a little over 100 years ago). Over this wide spread of people to distant lands, time and loss of identity is there really any such thing as a Jew today? or are we all Gentile?

You know, that's a very good question.

The dispensation of the Jewish nation has ended with the cross. They served their purpose in the redemptive plan of God and are no longer a covenant nation anymore. So, regardless of who is ethnically Jewish, they are no longer a people to God, apart from Jesus Christ.

There are still ethnic Jews, but they are in the same condition as the Gentile. They are no longer a distinct group, they have become enemies of the New Covenant (as all men without Christ are) unless they repent. They are of the world, and the world is against the Church - the true people of God, that has lived throughout all ages.

They should, by now, realize that God has finished Israel's existence. I mean, despite the fact that God has allowed them to forcefully steal a chunk of the land through conflict that they no longer rightfully own, they haven't set foot on it for nearly two millennia, that's the longest diaspora they have ever faced. God hasn't spoken to them by prophets since then until now and still hasn't yet. God didn't speak to them about a return, like he did in the past. God didn't prepare their return, as he did in the past. They have possession of less than half the land, the other half belonging to sovereign state of Jordan (which they cannot interfere with). I noticed that before every return from exile, the people are repentant. We do not see a spiritual revival among the Jews since the beginning of this statehood. They have become more secular than before! The Messiah hasn't arrived still yet. They do not know what tribe they belong to. They live in an age where animal sacrifices would be internationally denounced, and to keep the Law they must slaughter animals in droves for all sorts of prescribed commandments written therein. The Golden Dome on Temple Mount prevents them from properly building another Temple. Muslim population exceeds limits that prevents them from being wholly a Jewish nation that implements Jewish law. Must I go on? Who are the Levites? Who are the priests within the tribe of the Levites? Who is the direct line of the High Priest to take on that role? Tradition holds that some people are, but where is the heavy documentation that Ezra required after the Babylonian exile? He would not permit, by God's command, just as the Law says, anyone to act as priest without documentation.

There is so many obstacles that clearly show Israel is no longer meant to function as an ethnically covenant nation anymore.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They should, by now, realize that God has finished Israel's existence. I mean, despite the fact that God has allowed them to forcefully steal a chunk of the land through conflict that they no longer rightfully own, they haven't set foot on it for nearly two millennia, that's the longest diaspora they have ever faced. God hasn't spoken to them by prophets since then until now and still hasn't yet. God didn't speak to them about a return, like he did in the past. God didn't prepare their return, as he did in the past. They have possession of less than half the land, the other half belonging to sovereign state of Jordan (which they cannot interfere with). I noticed that before every return from exile, the people are repentant. We do not see a spiritual revival among the Jews since the beginning of this statehood. They have become more secular than before! The Messiah hasn't arrived still yet. They do not know what tribe they belong to. They live in an age where animal sacrifices would be internationally denounced, and to keep the Law they must slaughter animals in droves for all sorts of prescribed commandments written therein. The Golden Dome on Temple Mount prevents them from properly building another Temple. Muslim population exceeds limits that prevents them from being wholly a Jewish nation that implements Jewish law. Must I go on? Who are the Levites? Who are the priests within the tribe of the Levites? Who is the direct line of the High Priest to take on that role? Tradition holds that some people are, but where is the heavy documentation that Ezra required after the Babylonian exile? He would not permit, by God's command, just as the Law says, anyone to act as priest without documentation.

There is so many obstacles that clearly show Israel is no longer meant to function as an ethnically covenant nation anymore.

Did Jordan steal their land too because they got land just as Israel did, in fact MUCH more land.

 

[JacksBratt]

You know, that's a very good question.

The dispensation of the Jewish nation has ended with the cross. They served their purpose in the redemptive plan of God and are no longer a covenant nation anymore. So, regardless of who is ethnically Jewish, they are no longer a people to God, apart from Jesus Christ.

There are still ethnic Jews, but they are in the same condition as the Gentile. They are no longer a distinct group, they have become enemies of the New Covenant (as all men without Christ are) unless they repent. They are of the world, and the world is against the Church - the true people of God, that has lived throughout all ages.

They should, by now, realize that God has finished Israel's existence. I mean, despite the fact that God has allowed them to forcefully steal a chunk of the land through conflict that they no longer rightfully own, they haven't set foot on it for nearly two millennia, that's the longest diaspora they have ever faced. God hasn't spoken to them by prophets since then until now and still hasn't yet. God didn't speak to them about a return, like he did in the past. God didn't prepare their return, as he did in the past. They have possession of less than half the land, the other half belonging to sovereign state of Jordan (which they cannot interfere with). I noticed that before every return from exile, the people are repentant. We do not see a spiritual revival among the Jews since the beginning of this statehood. They have become more secular than before! The Messiah hasn't arrived still yet. They do not know what tribe they belong to. They live in an age where animal sacrifices would be internationally denounced, and to keep the Law they must slaughter animals in droves for all sorts of prescribed commandments written therein. The Golden Dome on Temple Mount prevents them from properly building another Temple. Muslim population exceeds limits that prevents them from being wholly a Jewish nation that implements Jewish law. Must I go on? Who are the Levites? Who are the priests within the tribe of the Levites? Who is the direct line of the High Priest to take on that role? Tradition holds that some people are, but where is the heavy documentation that Ezra required after the Babylonian exile? He would not permit, by God's command, just as the Law says, anyone to act as priest without documentation.

There is so many obstacles that clearly show Israel is no longer meant to function as an ethnically covenant nation anymore.

The Hebrew are a very unique people.. in three ways.

1/ They are God's chosen people
2/ They are a race.. all tribes and descendants of Israel himself.
3/ They are their own religion.

Now, as for number 1/ we are all grafted into that in this day of grace and are all children of God and His chose,

For number 2/ We are not of the race of Jewish lineage.. I'm not a negro, nor an Asian... I am of a certain race... As are the Jewish people.

Number 3/ They are of their own religion. You can convert, just like I could convert to Budism or become a Muslim.... It is a religion..


The nation of Israel is reborn.. Not because God just allowed it... But... because He prophesied that it would happen and He aided in it happening. It is all part of His plan. The events of the book of Revelation will all come to pass before the generation that saw the rebirth of Israel passes away.

We now live in the age of Grace.... From the time of Christ.. to the Great Tribulation.. The tribulation will see significance given back to Christ's chosen. There will be 144,000 protected and brought out of this time of wrath...

 

[pescador]

You know, that's a very good question.

The dispensation of the Jewish nation has ended with the cross. They served their purpose in the redemptive plan of God and are no longer a covenant nation anymore. So, regardless of who is ethnically Jewish, they are no longer a people to God, apart from Jesus Christ.

There are still ethnic Jews, but they are in the same condition as the Gentile. They are no longer a distinct group, they have become enemies of the New Covenant (as all men without Christ are) unless they repent. They are of the world, and the world is against the Church - the true people of God, that has lived throughout all ages.

They should, by now, realize that God has finished Israel's existence. I mean, despite the fact that God has allowed them to forcefully steal a chunk of the land through conflict that they no longer rightfully own, they haven't set foot on it for nearly two millennia, that's the longest diaspora they have ever faced. God hasn't spoken to them by prophets since then until now and still hasn't yet. God didn't speak to them about a return, like he did in the past. God didn't prepare their return, as he did in the past. They have possession of less than half the land, the other half belonging to sovereign state of Jordan (which they cannot interfere with). I noticed that before every return from exile, the people are repentant. We do not see a spiritual revival among the Jews since the beginning of this statehood. They have become more secular than before! The Messiah hasn't arrived still yet. They do not know what tribe they belong to. They live in an age where animal sacrifices would be internationally denounced, and to keep the Law they must slaughter animals in droves for all sorts of prescribed commandments written therein. The Golden Dome on Temple Mount prevents them from properly building another Temple. Muslim population exceeds limits that prevents them from being wholly a Jewish nation that implements Jewish law. Must I go on? Who are the Levites? Who are the priests within the tribe of the Levites? Who is the direct line of the High Priest to take on that role? Tradition holds that some people are, but where is the heavy documentation that Ezra required after the Babylonian exile? He would not permit, by God's command, just as the Law says, anyone to act as priest without documentation.

There is so many obstacles that clearly show Israel is no longer meant to function as an ethnically covenant nation anymore.

This is a prime example of anti-Semitism. I am forwarding it to the anti-defamation league.

 

[Jonaitis]

This is a prime example of anti-Semitism. I am forwarding it to the anti-defamation league.

I said nothing anti-Semitic, but do as you wish.

 

[Jonaitis]

There will be 144,000 protected and brought out of this time of wrath...

I lean toward the belief that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation refers to the sealed Jewish believers before the destruction of the Temple (or during the apostolic age). Jews today have no tribal identity anymore, and even if they did it is too mixed.

 

[Jonaitis]

Did Jordan steal their land too because they got land just as Israel did, in fact MUCH more land.

Are the residents of Jordan native? However, my point remains regardless if they stole it, that Jewish people cannot reach the extent of their glory as in the former days. They are restricted by so many obstacles that God has placed. Jordan will not give up their land to support their agenda.

 

[JacksBratt]

I lean toward the belief that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation refers to the sealed Jewish believers before the destruction of the Temple (or during the apostolic age). Jews today have no tribal identity anymore, and even if they did it is too mixed.

I disagree.. Today the Jewish people are predominantly of the belief that the messiah is still going to come.

There are messianic Jews.. but the majority are not..

It is these that will believe and be converted during the tribulation...

 

[Maria Billingsley]

there has been a number of Jewish diasporas over the centuries, most notable the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and subsequent exile. A lot of time has passed and since then Hebrew has become a dead language since the 2nd century (now revived only a little over 100 years ago). Over this wide spread of people to distant lands, time and loss of identity is there really any such thing as a Jew today? or are we all Gentile?

Any person that can prove they are a descendant of one of the tribes of Israel through their mothers bloodline can consider themselves a Jew. Any break from such line breaks the lineage. So my guess is no one knows!
Be blessed and stay healthy!

 

[Jonaitis]

I disagree.. Today the Jewish people are predominantly of the belief that the messiah is still going to come.

There are messianic Jews.. but the majority are not..

It is these that will believe and be converted during the tribulation...

I believe the distinction between Christian and 'Messianic Jews' is insulting to God. There is no special title or status for believers who are Jewish. The apostle rightly says, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him" (Romans 10:12). The Gentile is treated the same as the Jew, and vise versa, in Jesus Christ.

We have become one, Jew and Gentile, in Christ. The first Christians were Jewish, and Jesus called her the 'Church,' not 'Israel.' We are the true, spiritual Israel that carnal, ethnic Israel foreshadowed. They were blessed with physical blessings in the land God promised to their fathers, but it was pointing to a far better covenant that promised eternal blessings promised to their fathers as well. Abraham saw Christ and the end of his covenant in Christ. Israel was used to bring about Christ and the New Covenant, so that this salvation would go throughout the whole world. For at one time (the Old Testament period) the gospel was concealed in shadows and types, and was understood chiefly by the elect within Israel. David was a believer of the New Covenant to come, by faith in the promise, while remaining in the Old Covenant that still lingered in his day. However, the Jew who did not believe in God only enjoyed the blessings of the covenant given to their fathers regarding land, prosperity, etc.

The final judgment upon the nation of Israel occurred in 70 AD (and partly in the beginning of the second century), a generation after the crucifixion of Jesus. It was the final blow because of their rebellion. He came to them like a hen for her chicks, but they refused to receive him as a whole. It was the elect among them that follow him, but the nation crucified him through the Romans. So God used the Romans to punish Israel one last time. The Romans brought on the tribulation that some passages referred to, and the 3 1/2 years refers to the destruction of the Jewish people and the siege of Jerusalem. It was the worse tribulation that the Jewish people had ever experienced in their existence as a covenant nation. Of course, there was more rebellions, less as dramatic than this one, decades later led by other 'messiahs' who claimed to be the son of David that finally did away with them for good, whatever was not finished in his burning wrath.

You should really read the account of Josephus, a priest who turned into a rebel who turned into a historian, who survived and was spared by Vespasian and Titus to live. He writes in detail as to what happened during that time. He was in the midst of it, was that not God ordained?

Jesus spoke of the sun, moon and stars falling during the tribulation, symbolic in the Old Testament to kingdoms and their leaders. Jesus may have referred to the fall of the nation to Rome.

Anyways, I am rambling too much on these subjects.