Do I Really Have To OBEY God Too?

[lesliedellow]

If man is born totally depraved then man cannot justly, rightly be blamed for his sinning/disobedience.

He wasn't born blind. He was born temperamentally disinclined to stop at traffic lights, and that cut no ice as an excuse when he found himself in court.

 

[TheSeabass]

He wasn't born blind. He was born temperamentally disinclined to stop at traffic lights, and that cut no ice as an excuse when he found himself in court.

One cannot be held accountable for how he was born, either blind or disinclined.

 

[lesliedellow]

One cannot be held accountable for how he was born, either blind or disinclined.

Try that in a court of law sometime.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Men do have the ability to obey God without miraculous help from the Holy Spirit.

--men are not born totally depraved leaving them unable to obey
--it would be pointless for God to give commands to man if man could not obey them
--if man cannot obey without help from the HS, then how does the HS go about deciding whom He will or will not help in obeying? It gives the disobedient then have an excuse for their lack of obedience.

This is Pelagianism, and it is rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wordkeeper]

Try that in a court of law sometime.

Defendants who are incapable of moral choice, either by birth or by accidental head /brain injury are acquitted all the time.

 

[Wordkeeper]

This is Pelagianism, and it is rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

I've met Calvinists who believe in justification by faith but sanctification through works.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've met Calvinists who believe in justification by faith but sanctification through works.

From a Lutheran perspective sanctification is God making us holy in Christ. We aren't made holy by our works, we are made holy by the holiness of God in Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

"Learn, then, to understand this article most clearly. If you are asked: What do you mean by the words: I believe in the Holy Ghost? you can answer: I believe that the Holy Ghost makes me holy, as His name implies. But whereby does He accomplish this, or what are His method and means to this end? Answer: By the Christian Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. For, in the first place, He has a peculiar congregation in the world, which is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God, which He reveals and preaches, [and through which] He illumines and enkindles hearts, that they understand, accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it." - Large Catechism II 41-42

Good works and sanctification come together, but it is not the works which make us holy, it is the Spirit who makes us holy through that which is worked upon us; and encompasses the whole Christian life from its beginning until kingdom come. We are not sanctified by our works, we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit who puts us in Christ, and works this through his Church, forgiveness of sin, the preaching of the Word, the Sacraments, and all the way through resurrection and the future life, that "He who began a good work in you will continue that work until the Day of the Lord Jesus". Sanctification, therefore, is a divine work operating upon us and in us. Through these things we being quickened by the Holy Spirit to obedience work the good we are called to do, by His strength, such that faith is being manifest through our good works; this is the manifestation of the holiness of God at work in us, not our own personal holiness being merited by our own strength.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wordkeeper]

From a Lutheran perspective sanctification is God making us holy in Christ. We aren't made holy by our works, we are made holy by the holiness of God in Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

"Learn, then, to understand this article most clearly. If you are asked: What do you mean by the words: I believe in the Holy Ghost? you can answer: I believe that the Holy Ghost makes me holy, as His name implies. But whereby does He accomplish this, or what are His method and means to this end? Answer: By the Christian Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. For, in the first place, He has a peculiar congregation in the world, which is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God, which He reveals and preaches, [and through which] He illumines and enkindles hearts, that they understand, accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it." - Large Catechism II 41-42

Good works and sanctification come together, but it is not the works which make us holy, it is the Spirit who makes us holy through that which is worked upon us; and encompasses the whole Christian life from its beginning until kingdom come. We are not sanctified by our works, we are sanctified by the Holy spirit who puts us in Christ, and works this through his Church, forgiveness of sin, the preaching of the Word, the Sacraments, and all the way through resurrection and the future life, that "He who began a good work in you will continue that work until the Day of the Lord Jesus". Sanctification, therefore, is a divine work operating upon us and in us.

-CryptoLutheran

The teaching is a bit more nuanced, as Scripture is nuanced. You will miss the message if you are not careful. Those who have ears, through the Holy Spirit, listen carefully.

Whatever salvation means, it is achieved through grace, by faith.

Salvation is being what God wanted men to be, a blessing to the world.

It is achieved not by works but by grace, God's favour.

We could never achieve salvation by works, but we receive grace, stay in God's good books by fearing/acknowledging God, showing loyalty, through loyal responses: belief, confession and action.

Genesis 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 22:12
12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

 

[TheSeabass]

Try that in a court of law sometime.

People are innocent as to how they are born, a court will not hold a man born blind accountable for not seeing.

 

[lesliedellow]

People are innocent as to how they are born, a court will not hold a man born blind accountable for not seeing.

They will find him guilty if he is born with a disinclination to stop at traffic lights, and he does indeed fail to stop at traffic lights.

Likewise, a sinful nature will not wash as an excuse for disobedience to God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

They will find him guilty if he is born with a disinclination to stop at traffic lights, and he does indeed fail to stop at traffic lights.

Likewise, a sinful nature will not wash as an excuse for disobedience to God.

Traffic lights are for those under jurisdiction of the police but not to the birds flying overhead. A bird nor a blindman do not have the sight to see traffic lights :what:
Paul put into place guidelines for those who need parables to explain the spiritual but once into the belief those parables give way to heavenly reality. You must be born again to understand.

 

[TheSeabass]

This is Pelagianism, and it is rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

What I posted was biblical.

 

[TheSeabass]

They will find him guilty if he is born with a disinclination to stop at traffic lights, and he does indeed fail to stop at traffic lights.

Likewise, a sinful nature will not wash as an excuse for disobedience to God.

No one is born with a sin nature.
If one was born with a sin nature where he could do nothing but sin, it would be unjust unfair to hold one accountable for how one is born. It is not in God's nature for God is just and fair.

 

[lesliedellow]

No one is born with a sin nature.
If one was born with a sin nature where he could do nothing but sin, it would be unjust unfair to hold one accountable for how one is born. It is not in God's nature for God is just and fair.

So what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice if not to do what we cannot do for ourselves, because of our sinful nature?

You seem to want to rewrite 2,000 years of Christian theology, starting with Paul.

 

[Wordkeeper]

So what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice if not to do what we cannot do for ourselves, because of our sinful nature?

You seem to want to rewrite 2,000 years of Christian theology, starting with Paul.

Logical fallacy of appeal to tradition:

Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem, appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) is a common fallacy in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition.

The point is that the sacrifice was needed to have a home that the sojourners could abide in:

Hebrews 11:13-16
13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What I posted was biblical.

Pelagianism is not biblical. So no. Scripture, on the contrary, says through Adam sin came to the whole world, and death through sin (Romans 5:12), there is no one born free from the stain of sin--it is universal to all, as "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23); which is why the Gospel is "the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile" (Romans 1:16), and "God has consigned all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

There is no one free from sin, all are sinners.
Christ came to save sinners.
The Gospel is for everyone, Jew and Gentile, for all sinners alike.
God has demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still yet sinners Christ died for us.
Etc.

What you have taught is not biblical, it is Pelagianism, and as I said, it is rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[lesliedellow]

Logical fallacy of appeal to tradition:

Appeal to tradition? You are going to ditch 2,000 years of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant theology, starting right from the time of the apostles, right up to the present day, and to raise a question mark about that is a mere appeal to tradition?

Well my. All hail Wordkeeper, the greatest theological genius of all time.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Appeal to tradition? You are going to ditch 2,000 years of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant theology, starting right from the time of the apostles, right up to the present day, and to raise a question mark about that is a mere appeal to tradition?

Well my. All hail Wordkeeper, the greatest theological genius of all time.

This is why you shouldn't appeal to tradition. The teaching of the Orthodox Church on the sin nature is different from the Western Churches.

Besides, Pelagius is recognised as a saint in the Eastern Orthodoxy.

As for the views of theological geniuses, here's what one of them teaches about depending on spoon-feeding from the commentaries:

Chew It Through Afresh (RJS)


Quote
"One of the interesting things about the Christian faith, when you think about the Bible, is that it seems to be designed so that every generation needs to chew it through afresh. We can no-one of us live on what was done before because cultures change, that has always been true, the language too, the pressure points of people have always been changing and again and again, this is not just true of our generation but every generation.It's rather like the way the Israelites gathered manna. You just have to go out and get the fresh stuff every day.But the good thing is that it means we all have to grow up and that there can be no passengers. We've all got to think it through and that is really the Pauline principle of transformation by the renewal of the mind and the way that that happens is when we are faced with new situations and we have to think it through afresh what is it we are saying and what we mean by what we are saying... We've GOT to do that."

N T Wright

 

[Wordkeeper]

Pelagianism is not biblical. So no. Scripture, on the contrary, says through Adam sin came to the whole world, and death through sin (Romans 5:12), there is no one born free from the stain of sin--it is universal to all, as "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23); which is why the Gospel is "the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile" (Romans 1:16), and "God has consigned all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32).

There is no one free from sin, all are sinners.
Christ came to save sinners.
The Gospel is for everyone, Jew and Gentile, for all sinners alike.
God has demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still yet sinners Christ died for us.
Etc.

What you have taught is not biblical, it is Pelagianism, and as I said, it is rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

Paul's teaching in Romans 3:23 is in the context of the Gentile members of the Roman congregation which thought that Gentiles were chosen after the Jews were cut off because they were more deserving. Not so, said Paul. All are unrighteous, no one deserved being in the Covenant.

Using this verse to teach a doctrine of all men being born with a sinful nature is committing the logical fallacy of non sequitur.

As for Romans 5:12, I've already posted several times on how it has been wrongly TRANSLATED:

Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle Wisdom

Sin: just how original is it?

Is the Theory of Original Sin Biblical – Part 8

 

[lesliedellow]

This is why you shouldn't appeal to tradition. The teaching of the Orthodox Church on the sin nature is different from the Western Churches.

Besides, Pelagius is recognised as a saint in the Eastern Orthodoxy.

Pelagius is regarded as a heretic in both the eastern and western halves of Christianity.

As for the views of theological geniuses, here's what one of them teaches about depending on spoon-feeding from the commentaries:

Chew It Through Afresh (RJS)

Tom Wright is no promotor of heresy. He can leave that to evangelicals with an appalingly bad theological education.