Do I Really Have To OBEY God Too?

[TheSeabass]

So true.



100% false. This is not in line with Christian thinking; not at all.

Men do have the ability to obey God without miraculous help from the Holy Spirit.

--men are not born totally depraved leaving them unable to obey
--it would be pointless for God to give commands to man if man could not obey them
--if man cannot obey without help from the HS, then how does the HS go about deciding whom He will or will not help in obeying? It gives the disobedient then have an excuse for their lack of obedience.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Men do have the ability to obey God without miraculous help from the Holy Spirit.

--men are not born totally depraved leaving them unable to obey
--it would be pointless for God to give commands to man if man could not obey them
--if man cannot obey without help from the HS, then how does the HS go about deciding whom He will or will not help in obeying? It gives the disobedient then have an excuse for their lack of obedience.

I wouldn't worry about the disobedient using this excuse. I have heard innumerable excuses from disobedient folks, many of which are well-cloaked in superlative theology.

 

[Oldmantook]

Rom 7:
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Sin lives and kills people because of the law.

You didn't answer my question as far as I can tell based on your reply. Is a Christian who is sinning, disobeying despite trusting in His obedience? A yes or no will suffice; or you need not answer.

 

[TheSeabass]

I wouldn't worry about the disobedient using this excuse. I have heard innumerable excuses from disobedient folks, many of which are well-cloaked in superlative theology.

IF one can only obey if "helped" by the HS, then the disobedient have a legitimate reason as to why they are unable to obey. Even if they wanted to obey, they could not.

 

[lesliedellow]

IF one can only obey if "helped" by the HS, then the disobedient have a legitimate reason as to why they are unable to obey. Even if they wanted to obey, they could not.

There is nothing physically preventing their obedience, but they have a built in disinclination to obey, which started with Eve, and has continued unchanged ever since. It is that which the Holy Spirit has to correct, and which it alone can correct.

 

[Si_monfaith]

You didn't answer my question as far as I can tell based on your reply. Is a Christian who is sinning, disobeying despite trusting in His obedience? A yes or no will suffice; or you need not answer.

Romans 5: 13: "but sin is not imputed when there is no law".

For those under law disobedience is imputed.

 

[Si_monfaith]

So true.



100% false. This is not in line with Christian thinking; not at all.

We are declared righteous by the obedience of the Son of God (Rom 5:19) not by our obedience to the law.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Some try and put the cart before the horse in declaring themselves righteous BEFORE they obey the will of God.

Psalms 119:172 says all of God's commandments are righteous.

It is impossible for one to be righteous BEFORE he ever does any of God's righteous commands. It's not possible for a person who does unrighteous to be righteous as long as he continues in doing unrighteousness. 1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to not do righteousness, one continues to not be of God.

Man has the ability to obey God without any miraculous help of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not in the business of showing partiality in whom will or will not help in obeying God's commands. Therefore man cannot excuse his disobedience by saying the Holy Spirit failed to help me obey.

"Man has the ability to obey God without any miraculous help of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not in the business of showing partiality in whom will or will not help in obeying God's commands."

Reply: Romans 9

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

[Catherineanne]

Men do have the ability to obey God without miraculous help from the Holy Spirit.

--men are not born totally depraved leaving them unable to obey
--it would be pointless for God to give commands to man if man could not obey them
--if man cannot obey without help from the HS, then how does the HS go about deciding whom He will or will not help in obeying? It gives the disobedient then have an excuse for their lack of obedience.

This is not Christian belief.

Christian belief is that all is by the Grace of God. ALL of it.

Good luck with that.

 

[Catherineanne]

We are declared righteous by the obedience of the Son of God (Rom 5:19) not by our obedience to the law.

Neither. All by Grace.

 

[Catherineanne]

I wouldn't worry about the disobedient using this excuse. I have heard innumerable excuses from disobedient folks, many of which are well-cloaked in superlative theology.

It is not an excuse; it is the plain truth.

Those who believe do so by the Grace of God, not by their own virtue.

 

[TheSeabass]

There is nothing physically preventing their obedience, but they have a built in disinclination to obey, which started with Eve, and has continued unchanged ever since. It is that which the Holy Spirit has to correct, and which it alone can correct.

Yet man is not born totally depraved nor has a sinful nature. Such an idea makes man a victim of sin and not a willing culprit in committing sin.

If the HS had to enable one to obey then He would enable all to obey and all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9) yet the bible does not teach Universalism.

If the HS does not cause ALL to obey and be saved, then does the HS show partiality toward some men enabling them to obey and leave the rest to be lost? What basis does the HS use to decide whom He will or will not enable? Such an idea makes the HS to be culpable for the disobedient lost in His failure to enable them to obey.

I see in the bible where God has commanded man to believe, repent, etc. These commands God has given to man imply;
1) man has the ability to obey
2) the responsibility is upon man to obey and failure to is man's culpability not the Holy Spirit's

Some theologies, as Calvinism, tries to falsely claim man has no ability, therefore takes the responsibility off of man to obey God's commands and puts that responsibility on the HS to see to it men are able to believe. Such an idea gives man an excuse for his sin/disobedience, makes man a victim of sin, relieves man of responsibilities. It puts God in the position of being partial towards some men over others when God is not partial and makes God culpable for the disobedient when He is not.

 

[TheSeabass]

We are declared righteous by the obedience of the Son of God (Rom 5:19) not by our obedience to the law.

Who here in this thread said one is righteous by obeying the OT law of Moses?

One must obey the gospel of Christ to be righteous/saved, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

 

[TheSeabass]

"Man has the ability to obey God without any miraculous help of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not in the business of showing partiality in whom will or will not help in obeying God's commands."

Reply: Romans 9

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nothing in Rom 9 says man is unable to obey God's commands. Rom 9 shows God can use man's (in this case, the Jews) disobedience in furthering God's own will. God used the Jews disobedience in rejecting the Messiah and having Him crucified to accomplish His will in having Christ die for the sins of men.

 

[TheSeabass]

This is not Christian belief.

Christian belief is that all is by the Grace of God. ALL of it.

Good luck with that.

No, it does not. Calvinism and other man made theologies may say salvation is by grace only but not the bible.

 

[lesliedellow]

If the HS does not cause ALL to obey and be saved, then does the HS show partiality toward some men enabling them to obey and leave the rest to be lost?

By definition, those chosen for salvation are favoured by God.

What basis does the HS use to decide whom He will or will not enable?

Only God has the answer to that question.

Such an idea makes the HS to be culpable for the disobedient lost in His failure to enable them to obey.

God is under no obligation to save anybody, so how can he be culpable for not saving those he chooses not to?

Some theologies, as Calvinism, tries to falsely claim man has no ability, therefore takes the responsibility off of man to obey God's commands and puts that responsibility on the HS to see to it men are able to believe.

God has no responsibility to save those he does not wish to. Men are entirely responsible for the sins they freely commit.

 

[Oldmantook]

Romans 5: 13: "but sin is not imputed when there is no law".

For those under law disobedience is imputed.

Why do you refrain from answering with a simple yes or no? Correct me if I'm wrong but based on your reply, a Christian is still in obedience even when engaging in willful sin correct? So for example, even if a Christian has an ongoing inappropriate contentography habit, that person is still in obedience because of Jesus' obedience? Yes or no?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Why do you refrain from answering with a simple yes or no? Correct me if I'm wrong but based on your reply, a Christian is still in obedience even when engaging in willful sin correct? So for example, even if a Christian has an ongoing inappropriate contentography habit, that person is still in obedience because of Jesus' obedience? Yes or no?

Is nakedness an act of sin under the law?

If yes, why did God create man naked?

 

[Oldmantook]

Is nakedness an act of sin under the law?

If yes, why did God create man naked?

You have the habit of evading my simple but direct question to you. Why is that??
Answer my question first, then I will answer yours. How's about that?

 

[TheSeabass]

By definition, those chosen for salvation are favoured by God.

They are NOT favored by God in that God chose to save them, but are favored by God for they chose to obey the gospel of Christ to become a favored child of God.

Only God has the answer to that question.

The HS does not choose which people will be saved. That is each individual choice.

God is under no obligation to save anybody, so how can he be culpable for not saving those he chooses not to?

Correct, God has no obligation to save anyone yet because of God's grace He sent Christ to the cross and those that obey Christ, [Hebrews 5:9] obey the gospel of Christ [2 Thessalonians 1:8] are the ones God has promised to save. So if a man does not obey the gospel, then that is man's culpability not God's because God has not put Himself in the position of picking winners and losers with losing being a result of God's choice not man's choice.

If God did put Himself in the position of picking winners and losers, then God certainly is responsible for those that are losers due to God's choice not man's choice. How can man be responsible for being a loser when man had no choice or say so in it all?

So in a scenario where God alone is choosing winners and losers, then if I am a loser , that is not my fault since I had nothing to do with it. I would be a loser solely on God's choice. So how can God not be responsible for choosing losers if He alone decides who losers are under that scenario? God certainly would be responsible for the losers, and that is why God left it up to man to choose to obey the gospel or not where then God is not responsible for who are winners or losers.

God has no responsibility to save those he does not wish to. Men are entirely responsible for the sins they freely commit.

If man is born totally depraved then man cannot justly, rightly be blamed for his sinning/disobedience. That would be like holding a man born blind accountable for not seeing, or a man born without legs accountable for not walking.

On one hand, you are holding man responsible for something he has no control over, has no choice about.

Yet on the other hand you fail to hold God accountable for the losers He chooses when God alone does the choosing.