Do I have to forgive Everyone?

[~Anastasia~]

We must forgive others if we expect God to forgive us. Not because God is in the business of "paying back" but because if we refuse to forgive, we close ourselves off to God's grace because we fail to fully understand our own need to be forgiven. A person who truly repents can't at the same time hold grudges and refuse to forgive others.

This has nothing to do with whether or not God will forgive them. The "whatsoever sins you forgive/retain" was given to the APOSTLES - not every person. None of us has the power through a grudge to prevent someone else from being forgiven.

Forgiveness for each person really comes down to their being able to receive God's grace. And a hard and unforgiving heart is one that is closed in some degree (maybe greatly) against God's grace. It's as simple as that.

 

[FireDragon76]

We must forgive others if we expect God to forgive us. Not because God is in the business of "paying back" but because if we refuse to forgive, we close ourselves off to God's grace because we fail to fully understand our own need to be forgiven. A person who truly repents can't at the same time hold grudges and refuse to forgive others.

This has nothing to do with whether or not God will forgive them. The "whatsoever sins you forgive/retain" was given to the APOSTLES - not every person. None of us has the power through a grudge to prevent someone else from being forgiven.

Forgiveness for each person really comes down to their being able to receive God's grace. And a hard and unforgiving heart is one that is closed in some degree (maybe greatly) against God's grace. It's as simple as that.

I am glad that my religious tradition doesn't focus on meriting God's grace through our obedience to religious ideals.

I watched a show yesterday about a mother in Australia whose daughter was raped and killed. She admitted she couldn't forgive her daughters killer, and she resented the assertion that she should. She said she wouldn't be a mother if she forgave. She's clearly embittered, but then again, she also has no daughter. It would seem its not my place to judge her.

Forgiveness is a Christian ideal but there are things that can happen to a person that make forgiveness difficult, if not impossible in this life.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am glad that my religious tradition doesn't focus on meriting God's grace through our obedience to religious ideals.

Forgive me, but you misunderstand my post if you think it has anything to do with meriting grace through any of our actions. We don't teach this.

God's grace is freely available. We must accept it, however.

I watched a show yesterday about a mother in Australia whose daughter was raped and killed. She admitted she couldn't forgive her daughters killer, and she resented the assertion that she should. She said she wouldn't be a mother if she forgave. She's clearly embittered, but then again, she also has no daughter. It would seem its not my place to judge her.

Forgiveness is a Christian ideal but there are things that can happen to a person that make forgiveness difficult, if not impossible in this life.

Lord have mercy on that mother and her child. That is a terrible situation.

Again though, it is a misunderstanding. Forgiveness doesn't mean feeling good about what was done. God never expects us to manipulate our feelings.

It's like the command to love others. We don't have to drum up warm sentiments we don't really feel. Love is not a feeling in that case - it's a decision or an action. It's deciding that you are willing to do what's best for another person.

In that way, forgiveness isn't about feeling perfectly ok about what was done. In cases like this, that can be impossible. But it's about deciding to leave it in God's hands and no longer letting that burning desire to take vengeance in your own hands consume you. That person may well suffer terrible torment forever. Or he might turn to God and be forgiven and transformed into Christlikeness. If we were able to prevent him from becoming a Christian and would choose to do so - that's a sign we have not forgiven. And if we would hate someone else so much that we endanger our own souls just for the desire to condemn them with us - we are not in any condition to realize our own need for repentance and forgiveness.

Again, it's not about God requiring us to jump through hoops or "paying us back". It's ultimately - are we really His? Do we recognize in our own sinfulness the need for His grace and open ourselves to it - or would we choose to deny it for the sake of making someone else suffer (if that were in our power - which it isn't). If we are the second sort - unforgiving - then we are in no position to receive God's grace ourselves.

 

[FireDragon76]

That sounds like a potentially heavy psychological burden to be pushing on victims.

In the case of the Australian mother, she got involved in a support group for the families of victims of homidice. From what I saw, I believe she was likely Anglican (they had footage of the funeral), though perhaps not especially religious (as is often the case in Australia).

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

Matthew 6:14
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Ok - this verse came up in a home group recently. It was stated that we had to forgive everyone of their sins. Some said that you had to forgive everyone even if they don't repent or admit being sorry for the trespass - some said that it means that you forgive the people who apologies and admit their trespass.

If you don't forgive then your Father will not forgive your sins. What does this mean exactly? - does it mean you will lose your salvation or just hinder your walk with god?

I've also created a poll on this thread.

Compare Mathew 6:14 with Ephesians 4:32 and you will see that Matthew 6:14 is not your doctrine for today.

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one toward another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

In Matthew forgiveness is clearly conditional on you forgiving others first, but in Ephesians forgiveness is in the past tense, without conditions (hath forgiven you). Both can't be true at the same time. When studying Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John always remember that Jesus in his earthly ministry was dealing with Israel and they were still under Law. That is not your doctrine for today, go to Paul for your doctrine.

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

 

[~Anastasia~]

That sounds like a potentially heavy psychological burden to be pushing on victims.

In the case of the Australian mother, she got involved in a support group for the families of victims of homidice. From what I saw, I believe she was likely Anglican (they had footage of the funeral), though perhaps not especially religious (as is often the case in Australia).

Yes, we've discussed this before and I know you don't agree. I'm not interested in arguing with you.

As far as a "potentially heavy psychological burden" ... take it up with Jesus. But frankly, to let go of burdens against others is psychologically freeing, not burdensome. It is for our own sake that we forgive, since it doesn't affect the forgiveness of others by God one way or another.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Vengeance belongs to the Lord.

OK - so far the survey/poll is leaning towards Forgiving everyone ( even if they have not repented or apologised ). You are also possibly stating leave Justice and Judgment to God as well ( and not take your own action )?

I'm trying to work out how the Criminal Justice system would work if society adopted this model of dealing with offenders. Would Law and order not collapse? No Deterrent, no punishment would lead to some major societal problems. Forgiveness would cause more problems than solve them.

If we as Christians adopt this strategy on a personal level then wouldn't the outcome leave to some major problems for us as well . OK - the offences might not be criminal but they could be things like adultery, lies, bullying, intimidation, irresponsibility ,lazyness.... whatever.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I believe we are to forgive everyone, even if they have not repented.

What do we mean by Forgiveness here?

 

[FIRESTORM314]

The measure that we use will be given to us. Keeping this in mind, what would be in our best interest?

OK - if God applies the strategy of using the measure we use against us when dealing with forgiving others - shouldn't we adopt a similar approach ourselves? should we not forgive others according to the measure the offender himself uses?

In other words. If my offender is very forgiving then I shall forgive them likewise when they trespass against me?
If my offender is very short on forgiving as an individual then I shall be equally unforgiving when dealing with them?

If God adopts this strategy - then why should I forgive everyone when God doesn't do that himself?

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Forgiveness can take on different aspects. When there is repentance by the offender, it can lead to reconciliation and restoration. When there isn't, it leads to our release and personal restoration, even if it doesn't benefit the offender. We do it in the latter case solely for our own good, and because we see that we are not adequate to the task of judging the secrets of others' hearts. Forgiveness has to be distinguished from reconciliation in order to make sense of the otherwise conflicting instructions we are given on it.

Are Letting Go and Forgiving the same thing?

Letting Go is something the "victim" mainly benefits from ( its a way of dealing with a psychological problem within so that you don't carry it around and let it damage you ) - Forgiving is something the offender mainly benefits from ( is it not that they don't carry around the guilt of their own actions ) ?

These two concepts can get mixed up - I do not think they are the same thing

 

[FIRESTORM314]

duplicate

 

[~Anastasia~]

OK - so far the survey/poll is leaning towards Forgiving everyone ( even if they have not repented or apologised ). You are also possibly stating leave Justice and Judgment to God as well ( and not take your own action )?

I'm trying to work out how the Criminal Justice system would work if society adopted this model of dealing with offenders. Would Law and order not collapse? No Deterrent, no punishment would lead to some major societal problems. Forgiveness would cause more problems than solve them.

If we as Christians adopt this strategy on a personal level then wouldn't the outcome leave to some major problems for us as well . OK - the offences might not be criminal but they could be things like adultery, lies, bullying, intimidation, irresponsibility ,lazyness.... whatever.

IF God's forgiveness of others hinged on whether we forgive offenses against us, you might have a point.

But it doesn't.

We don't advocate a complete lack of punishment for offenses. In fact, that would be the unloving thing to do. Both unloving to sinners, who have no motive to develop a right conscience within themselves, or a right response to conscience, as well as unloving to all their victims, who we are then failing to protect.

No one ever said all consequences shall be erased. We simply let go of that burning desire with us to exact vengeance ourselves, for the sake of satisfying our own offended selves.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Are Letting Go and Forgiving the same thing?

Letting Go is something the "victim" mainly benefits from ( its a way of dealing with a psychological problem within so that you don't carry it around and let it damage you ) - Forgiving is something the offender mainly benefits from ( is it not that they don't carry around the guilt of their own actions ) ?

These two concepts can get mixed up - I do not think they are the same thing

When God tells us to forgive those who offend us - that does not mean that He will or will not forgive them based on whether or not we do this.

It really is only about us.

What happens between them and God determines their own forgiveness. No one has that power over anyone else. It is always between each of us and God.

So the "confusion" in this case is closer to the truth.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

[

I think it is possible to Let go and Not Forgive at the same time?

I think using the word Forgiving instead of Letting Go is confusing the issue. Letting Go is for our benefit - it can be done without forgiving.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

It would be far more easier to declare something like " I am letting go of this anger - I have the power to live a new life, etc" rather than say I forgive them for what they did ( even though they do not repent ) .

 

[Dave L]

OK - so far the survey/poll is leaning towards Forgiving everyone ( even if they have not repented or apologised ). You are also possibly stating leave Justice and Judgment to God as well ( and not take your own action )?

I'm trying to work out how the Criminal Justice system would work if society adopted this model of dealing with offenders. Would Law and order not collapse? No Deterrent, no punishment would lead to some major societal problems. Forgiveness would cause more problems than solve them.

If we as Christians adopt this strategy on a personal level then wouldn't the outcome leave to some major problems for us as well . OK - the offences might not be criminal but they could be things like adultery, lies, bullying, intimidation, irresponsibility ,lazyness.... whatever.

Christian ethics are far different from secular ethics. God ordained the civil magistrate to wield the sword. But we forgive and flee danger.

 

[FireDragon76]

OK - so far the survey/poll is leaning towards Forgiving everyone ( even if they have not repented or apologised ). You are also possibly stating leave Justice and Judgment to God as well ( and not take your own action )?

I'm trying to work out how the Criminal Justice system would work if society adopted this model of dealing with offenders. Would Law and order not collapse? No Deterrent, no punishment would lead to some major societal problems. Forgiveness would cause more problems than solve them.

Of course it would be problematic since forgiveness is a matter of Gospel rather than Law. Societies depend on lawful order to survive.

 

[eleos1954]

What do we mean by Forgiveness here?

Matthew 6:12 Forgive us the wrongs we have done, as we forgive the wrongs that others have done to us.

Luke 23:34 "Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they are doing"

 

[Phil 1:21]

When we fully appreciate the depth of our sin, the forgiveness granted us by God, and the sacrifice He made in order to bring about that forgiveness, it becomes much easier for us to forgive others.