Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[Biblewriter]

Easy to say without proof..............

ibid

 

[Dave L]

And they STILL, at the time the Epistle to the Romans was written, pertained to Paul's "countrymen according to the FLESH, who are Israelites."

These were the last genuinely circumcised Jews.

 

[Biblewriter]

you just flunked the test.

Actuallyt, you are the one who is making assertions you cannot prove from scripture, and which are contrary to MANY explicitly stated scriptures. Some of which I just posted.

 

[Dave L]

Actuallyt, you are the one who is making assertions you cannot prove from scripture, and which are contrary to MANY explicitly stated scriptures. Some of which I just posted.

These are all based on direct quotes of scripture. Saying they are false shows either deceit or lack of knowledge in OT studies.

 

[Biblewriter]

These are all based on direct quotes of scripture. Saying they are false shows either deceit or lack of knowledge in OT studies.

They are almost all INTERPRETATIONS of scripture, not STATEMENTS of scripture. Your basic doctrine, that the nation of Israel will never be restored, Is a direct denial of a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures.

 

[Hank77]

False. Mixed multitude, yes, but NO ONE was circumcised until they got to Gilgal. (the mountain of foreskins) The foriegners who intermarried with the Jews became part of Israel thru that. THe rest were called "ger" the "foreigner within your gates."

I don't see where any were called 'ger' at Gilgal.
This is what Paul told the church at Corinth.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

This tells me that all those who passed over the Jordon into Gilgal were converted and all needed to be circumcised in order to received the Passover.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Paul shows that the Law and ordinances were removed by Jesus on the cross.

Paul forbids circumcision in the traditional Jewish. (We are not talking about 21st century medical practices).

not true...Paul let Timothy get circumcised in Acts...

 

[Dave L]

They are almost all INTERPRETATIONS of scripture, not STATEMENTS of scripture. Your basic doctrine, that the nation of Israel will never be restored, Is a direct denial of a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures.

The church is Israel. The full restoration happens in the resurrection into the New Heavens and Earth on the last day.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Forming a false Judaism around it.

Can you give more details on that you mean by false Judaism?

 

[Dave L]

Can you give more details on that you mean by false Judaism?

The Talmud heavily influences today's Judaism. It has nothing to do with Moses any more than it did when Jesus condemned the Pharisees for ignoring Moses and using the traditions (now the Talmud in writing) instead. In fact, today's "Jews" are from the few Pharisees who escaped the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Proof available if interested.

 

[David Kent]

deleted

 

[Dave L]

not true...Paul let Timothy get circumcised in Acts...

It was to keep the Jews from killing them.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It was to keep the Jews from killing them.

Why would Paul, who was NEVER scared to die for his faith and beliefs, allow it if he agreed with your position??? You are wrong...as usual

 

[eleos1954]

Here is Paul's version of the Great Commission, addressed to gentiles:

Romans 11
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?​

The going to the nations with the gospel was primarily given to Jewish believers. And that goes all the way back to Moses.

Exodus 19:6
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”​

Priests to whom? The other nations, just as Levi were priests to the rest of Israel. The prophets expanded on that thought:

Isaiah 42:6
“I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,​

So what are we gentile believers to do? Make the wayward of Israel JEALOUS so they can fulfill their calling and anointing from God to bring the gospel to the nations.

So tell me Dave, what are YOU doing to make traditional Jews jealous of what you have?

well then we also have this ...

Romans 9

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”a 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise (Christ) who are regarded as offspring.

After the stoning of Stephen...

Acts 9:15
"Go!" said the Lord. "This man (Saul/Paul) is My chosen instrument to carry My name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel.

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. (all he commanded - included the great commission of discipleship)

Galatians 3

New International Version
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We are all one in Christ ... the gospel goes out through all believers ... who are all disciples of Christ.

 

[Concord1968]

In fact, today's "Jews" are from the few Pharisees who escaped the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Proof available if interested.

Enlighten us, please; and please source any claims so verification can be made.

 

[Hank77]

Why would Paul, who was NEVER scared to die for his faith and beliefs, allow it if he agreed with your position??? You are wrong...as usual

First can we keep this conversation clear of snarky remarks, they are beneath us.

I don't think it was out of fear. Paul wanted the opportunity to preach the gospel to these unbelieving Jews. They were aware that Timothy's father was a Greek and therefore, he may not be circumcised.
The Jews would not have listened to Timothy or Paul if they thought that either one were not circumcised and therefore, unclean. So it was purely for the advancement of the gospel.

 

[Hank77]

The Talmud heavily influences today's Judaism. It has nothing to do with Moses any more than it did when Jesus condemned the Pharisees for ignoring Moses and using the traditions (now the Talmud in writing) instead. In fact, today's "Jews" are from the few Pharisees who escaped the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Proof available if interested.

The Karaite Jews do not believe in the oral law of the Talmuds. They only believe in the OT scriptures.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

I’m interested in how their support for the State of Israel fits into the plan to preach the gospel to all nations.

Paul teaches all of God’s promises are yes in Jesus. How can the ancient promises apply to those who exist solely because of their hatred and rejection of Jesus?

Does Dispensationalism teach two gospels? One for the church and another based on OT Law for the Jews? Where in the future another temple will replace the gospel with Judaism?

I have many more questions. But these first come to mind.

Modern Jews aren't saved, the modern nation state of Israel is irrelevant for Christians. It's a huge error to create a theology centered around godless nations.

 

[His student]

it's already a controversial issue and I know Christians who would be offended by my apathy for this sort of support to a point they would question where my loyalties are. Yet I ask them about efforts into reaching these people with the gospel and they seem to blow it off like the gospel isn't meant for them because of prophecy. So what happens when these events start to unfold? the temple is being built, the sacrificial system is being reinstated and then from the pulpit, there's an announcement for a special offering for this cause? Do I sit there and let the offering plate go on by or do I get up and walk out?

I'll take you are your word that you know Christians who say that the gospel isn't meant for the Jews. But in all my years around dispensationalists (some 60+ since I was born again) I have never heard a person teach that today's Jews aren't saved the same way they were in the first century.

Got any links to that idea?

In addition to that - I have never seen a special offering taken in a Christian church (even a Jewish minded Christian messianic type church) for the purpose of rebuilding the temple and reinstating the sacrificial system. To support the nation of Israel - yes. But never for the purposes you refer to.

How about any examples or links to this you might provide?

Does Dispensationalism teach two gospels? One for the church and another based on OT Law for the Jews?

I've often heard this charge leveled against dispensationaism. But I have never seen or heard anyone preach such a thing.

If you have - do you have any links on that for us.

 

[Hank77]

To support the nation of Israel - yes. But never for the purposes you refer to.

Support Israel in what way? Who does the money go to and for what purpose?