Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

[public hermit]

Every time an innocent lamb is slain - men will literally (not just prophetically) look upon the One who was slain for the sins of the world.

I just saw this part of your post. Okay, I see what you're saying. It would be a teaching tool in the future as it was in the past. I kind of get that, but it seems ad hoc, like your using it just to save your desired eschatology. Nonetheless, you still have to have a way to help them see it is not really efficacious for sin and only needful for teaching. But in order to do that they will have to see Jesus is the one and only needed and sufficient sacrifice. And if they see that, then they don't need the sacrifice to remind them, they could just partake in the Lord's Supper, as we now do.

 

[His student]

Which I find quite odd, since there is not one single scripture that teaches the Biblical Antichrist ever sits in a temple.
So I'm unclear by what basis someone can take that idea literally, when no such Biblical teaching exists?

There's enough Biblical teaching that a great many Bible believers have identified the Pope as the anti-Christ. You know the vicar of Christ?

 

[His student]

......... Nonetheless, you still have to have a way to help them see it is not really efficacious for sin and only needful for teaching. But in order to do that they will have to see Jesus is the one and only needed and sufficient sacrifice......

Perhaps that's where we come in (we who return with Him to reign with Him and to teach the nations about Him).

Time will tell.

By the way - I find the teachings of the other groups concerning the fulfillment of certain scriptures to be a much bigger stretch then that of dispensationalists.

 

[public hermit]

By the way - I find the teachings of the other groups concerning the fulfillment of certain scriptures to be a much bigger stretch then that of dispensationalists.

If you're referencing the Preterists (partial, full, uber, etc.) and such, I am about as oblivious concerning that as I can be. I have a general understanding of some of the basic points, but I just don't spend my time in those areas.

At any rate, thank you for taking time to try to help me understand better.

 

[usexpat97]

Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel?

YES.

However, I believe most are well-meaning and just don't know. I was a strong supporter of Israel, but I did not yet fully understand what dispensationalism was really preaching. I was not aware of a lot of things.

 

[Dave-W]

I Guess John was Wrong then?:
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

Not really; "He" being the spirit of antichrist speaking thru traditional Judaism and Islam.

 

[Dave-W]

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

You are not understanding "cut off." Being cut off does NOT make one a gentile or no longer a Jew. It means they are removed from the covenantal community and the protections and benefits of such. It is a loss of salvation. (which according to romans 11 can happen to gentile believers too)

But it is NOT removal of being Jewish, being Israel. And it does NOT let them off the hook for not fulfilling their obligations before God as such.

 

[Dave L]

Can you show from scripture that "before Calvary" has anything to do with it?
Don't bother - the answer is NO. You cannot.

Israel Bible History Quiz. (Hint; all answers are true).
1. Circumcision made one the covenant seed of Abraham. True or false?

2. God told Abraham that any not circumcised were to be cut off. True or false?

3. Abraham’s seed consisted of over 300 foreigners and their families when God instituted circumcision. True or False?

4. Ishmael was Abraham’s only blood relative at the time. True or False?

5. Even though circumcised, Ishmael became a gentile and father of the Edomites after being cut off from the group. True or False?

6. David on the outs with Saul and facing exile, along with tribal Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, feared they would lose membership in Israel if separated from the group. True or False?

7. So circumcision and inclusion in the group of the circumcised made one Abraham’s physical seed. True or False?

8. Moses continued the rite of circumcision as given to Abraham. True or False?

9. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross ending physical membership in Abraham’s seed/Israel. True or False?

10. Paul says Jesus is Abraham’s seed along with those who believe in him. True or False?

11. Abraham’s physical seed were first known as Hebrews, and later as the children of Israel in Egypt. True or False?

12. When Israel left Egypt, they were a mixed multitude of Jacob’s family and foreigners, all circumcised and called Israel. True or False?

13. Many gentiles became Jews through circumcision in Esther’s day. True or False?

14. Circumcision not birth made one a Jew and physical member of Israel until Christ abolished the ritual on the cross. True or False?

15. Since Christ abolished circumcision and excommunicated unbelievers, only those who trust in Christ are biblical Israel today. True or False?

 

[Dave-W]

. Even though circumcised, Ishmael became a gentile and father of the Edomites after being cut off from the group. True or False?

False. There were no gentiles before the children of Jacob were called Israel. Ishmael could not become something that did not exist yet.

6. David on the outs with Saul and facing exile, along with tribal Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, feared they would lose membership in Israel if separated from the group. True or False?

they may have feared such a thing. that does not mean it could actually happen.

9. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross ending physical membership in Abraham’s seed/Israel. True or False?

Definitely false. Jews are STILL to be circumcised. Abrahamic covenant.

12. When Israel left Egypt, they were a mixed multitude of Jacob’s family and foreigners, all circumcised and called Israel. True or False?

False. Mixed multitude, yes, but NO ONE was circumcised until they got to Gilgal. (the mountain of foreskins) The foriegners who intermarried with the Jews became part of Israel thru that. THe rest were called "ger" the "foreigner within your gates."

14. Circumcision not birth made one a Jew and physical member of Israel

False. For the natural born it was BOTH. All others had to undergo a conversion process which included circumcision as the final step.

 

[Dave L]

Scripture is stronger that all the reasonngs of mere men.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! Romans 11:11-12

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

False. There were no gentiles before the children of Jacob were called Israel. Ishmael could not become something that did not exist yet.


they may have feared such a thing. that does not mean it could actually happen.


Definitely false. Jews are STILL to be circumcised. Abrahamic covenant.


False. Mixed multitude, yes, but NO ONE was circumcised until they got to Gilgal. (the mountain of foreskins) The foriegners who intermarried with the Jews became part of Israel thru that. THe rest were called "ger" the "foreigner within your gates."

False. For the natural born it was BOTH. All others had to undergo a conversion process which included circumcision as the final step.

All of Abraham's servants were gentiles made his seed through circumcision.

 

[Dave-W]

14. Circumcision not birth made one a Jew and physical member of Israel until Christ abolished the ritual on the cross. True or False?

15. Since Christ abolished circumcision and excommunicated unbelievers, only those who trust in Christ are biblical Israel today. True or False?

I reject out of hand the notion that circumcision was abolished at the cross or anywhere else for that matter.

Circumcision was NEVER a requirement for gentiles - so not requiring of of them is NOT abolishing it.
Circumcision is STILL required for the Jews as part of the Abrahamic covenant. Not abolished at aall.

 

[Dave-W]

All of Abraham's servants were gentiles made his seed through circumcision.

False. That is why God told him that his seed would be a child from his own body.

Genesis 15:4
Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”

 

[Dave L]

I reject out of hand the notion that circumcision was abolished at the cross or anywhere else for that matter.

Circumcision was NEVER a requirement for gentiles - so not requiring of of them is NOT abolishing it.
Circumcision is STILL required for the Jews as part of the Abrahamic covenant. Not abolished at aall.

Here's a few scriptures showing Christ abolished the Old Covenant which Circumcision became a part of.

This verse shows that circumcision, not blood made one a Jew.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

This shows that the Ten Commandments (The Old Covenant) is obsolete having been replaced by the New Covenant. Circumcision was part of the Old Covenant imported from Abraham.

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:” (Jeremiah 31:31–32)

Paul shows that the Law and ordinances were removed by Jesus on the cross.

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:13–14)

Moses calls the Ten Commandments "ordinances".
“And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.” Exodus 18:20 (KJV 1900)

Paul forbids circumcision in the traditional Jewish. (We are not talking about 21st century medical practices).

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:1–2)

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3–4)

 

[Dave L]

False. That is why God told him that his seed would be a child from his own body.

Genesis 15:4
Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”

Jesus (Abraham's seed) would come through Isaac.

 

[Dave-W]

Here's a few scriptures showing Christ abolished the Old Covenant which Circumcision became a part of.

While the Mosaic covenant requirement may be set aside, the Abrahamic covenant never has. I am saying it is required according to THAT.

 

[Biblewriter]

Israel Bible History Quiz. (Hint; all answers are true).

1. Circumcision made one the covenant seed of Abraham. True or false?
FALSE
2. God told Abraham that any not circumcised were to be cut off. True or false?
TRUE
3. Abraham’s seed consisted of over 300 foreigners and their families when God instituted circumcision. True or False?
FALSE
4. Ishmael was Abraham’s only blood relative at the time. True or False?
TRUE
5. Even though circumcised, Ishmael became a gentile and father of the Edomites after being cut off from the group. True or False?
FALSE IN STRESS, ALTHOUGH NOT IN FACT
6. David on the outs with Saul and facing exile, along with tribal Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, feared they would lose membership in Israel if separated from the group. True or False?
FALSE
7. So circumcision and inclusion in the group of the circumcised made one Abraham’s physical seed. True or False?
TOTALLY FALSE
8. Moses continued the rite of circumcision as given to Abraham. True or False?
TRUE
9. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross ending physical membership in Abraham’s seed/Israel. True or False?
FALSE HE ABOLISHED CIRCUMCISION. BUT HE DID NOT END PHYSICAL MEMBERSHIP IN ABRAHAM'S SEED
10. Paul says Jesus is Abraham’s seed along with those who believe in him. True or False?
TRUE
11. Abraham’s physical seed were first known as Hebrews, and later as the children of Israel in Egypt. True or False?
TRUE
12. When Israel left Egypt, they were a mixed multitude of Jacob’s family and foreigners, all circumcised and called Israel. True or False?
FALSE
13. Many gentiles became Jews through circumcision in Esther’s day. True or False?
MAYBE THIS IS NOT STATED IN SCRIPTURE
14. Circumcision not birth made one a Jew and physical member of Israel until Christ abolished the ritual on the cross. True or False?
FALSE
15. Since Christ abolished circumcision and excommunicated unbelievers, only those who trust in Christ are biblical Israel today. True or False?
TOTALLY FALSE

 

[Dave L]

While the Mosaic covenant requirement may be set aside, the Abrahamic covenant never has. I am saying it is required according to THAT.

Paul forbid circumcision. How so?

 

[Dave L]

1. Circumcision made one the covenant seed of Abraham. True or false?
FALSE
2. God told Abraham that any not circumcised were to be cut off. True or false?
TRUE
3. Abraham’s seed consisted of over 300 foreigners and their families when God instituted circumcision. True or False?
FALSE
4. Ishmael was Abraham’s only blood relative at the time. True or False?
TRUE
5. Even though circumcised, Ishmael became a gentile and father of the Edomites after being cut off from the group. True or False?
FALSE IN STRESS, ALTHOUGH NOT IN FACT
6. David on the outs with Saul and facing exile, along with tribal Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, feared they would lose membership in Israel if separated from the group. True or False?
FALSE
7. So circumcision and inclusion in the group of the circumcised made one Abraham’s physical seed. True or False?
TOTALLY FALSE
8. Moses continued the rite of circumcision as given to Abraham. True or False?
TRUE
9. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross ending physical membership in Abraham’s seed/Israel. True or False?
FALSE HE ABOLISHED CIRCUMCISION. BUT HE DID NOT END PHYSICAL MEMBERSHIP IN ABRAHAM'S SEED
10. Paul says Jesus is Abraham’s seed along with those who believe in him. True or False?
TRUE
11. Abraham’s physical seed were first known as Hebrews, and later as the children of Israel in Egypt. True or False?
TRUE
12. When Israel left Egypt, they were a mixed multitude of Jacob’s family and foreigners, all circumcised and called Israel. True or False?
FALSE
13. Many gentiles became Jews through circumcision in Esther’s day. True or False?
MAYBE THIS IS NOT STATED IN SCRIPTURE
14. Circumcision not birth made one a Jew and physical member of Israel until Christ abolished the ritual on the cross. True or False?
FALSE
15. Since Christ abolished circumcision and excommunicated unbelievers, only those who trust in Christ are biblical Israel today. True or False?
TOTALLY FALSE

you just flunked the test.

 

[Biblewriter]

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

And they STILL, at the time the Epistle to the Romans was written, pertained to Paul's "countrymen according to the FLESH, who are Israelites."