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Do Creationists Believe in the Universe

Crumbacher

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Only if they translate it wrong based upon pre-conceived beliefs.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1.htm

Notice shamayim is also a plural as noted that the KJV which is claimed to mean heaven singular in Ge 1:1 is translated heavens in 2:1. Then "hayah" does not mean "was", but became, or falls out of a prior existence. The earth "became" desolate and waste, and darkness "became" upon the surface of the deep. And so the dinosaurs went extinct. Meteor, comet, doesn't matter. In perfect agreement with the Bible. But the 5 prior creations and 5 prior destruction's is not the subject of the Bible.

Sorry, but your information is incorrect. "Hayah" DOES NOT mean "became." Keil & Delitzsch, the greatest of Hebrew scholars, had this to say in their commentary on Genesis:

1:1IN THE BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth.” –Heaven and the earth have not existed from all eternity, but had a beginning; nor did they arise by emanation from an absolute substance, but were created by God. This sentence, which stands at the head of the records of revelation, is not a mere heading, nor a summary of the history of creation, but a declaration of the primeval act of God, by which the universe was called into being. That this verse is not a heading merely, is evident from the fact that the following account of the course of the creation commences with ו (and), which connects the different acts of creation with the fact expressed in v. 1, as the primary foundation upon which they rest. בּראשׁית (in the beginning) is used absolutely, like εν αρχη in John 1:1, and מראשׁית in Isa. 46:10. The following clause cannot be treated as subordinate, either by rendering it, “in the beginning when God created…, the earth was,” etc., or “in the beginning when God created…(but the earth was then a chaos, etc.), God said, Let there be light” (Ewald and Bunsen). The first is opposed to the grammar of the language, which would require v. 2 to commence with ותּהי הארץ; the second to the simplicity of style which pervades the whole chapter, and to which so involved a sentence would be intolerable, apart altogether from the fact that this construction is invented for the simple purpose of getting rid of the doctrine of a creatio ex nihilo, which is so repulsive to modern Pantheism. ראשׁית in itself is a relative notion, indicating the commencement of a series of things or events; but here the context gives it the meaning of the very first beginning, the commencement of the world, when time itself began. The statement, that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, not only precludes the idea of the eternity of the world a parte ante, but shows that the creation of the heaven and the earth was the actual beginning of all things. The verb בּרא, indeed, to judge from its use in Josh. 17:15, 18, where it occurs in the Piel (to hew out), means literally “to cut, or new,” but in Kal it always means to create, and is only applied to a divine creation, the production of that which had no existence before. It is never joined with an accusative of the material, although it does not exclude a pre-existent material unconditionally, but is used for the creation of man (v. 27, ch. 5:1, 2), and of everything new that God creates, whether in the kingdom of nature (Num. 16:30) or of that of grace (Ex. 34:10; Ps. 51:10, etc.). In this verse however, the existence of any primeval material is precluded by the object created: “the heaven and the earth.” This expression is frequently employed to denote the world, or universe, for which there was no single word in the Hebrew language; the universe consisting of a twofold whole, and the distinction between heaven and earth being essentially connected with the notion of the world, the fundamental condition of its historical development (vid., ch. 14:19, 22; Ex. 31:17). In the earthly creation this division is repeated in the distinction between spirit and nature; and in man, as the microcosm, in that between spirit and body. Through sin this distinction was changed into an actual opposition between heaven and earth, flesh and spirit; but with the complete removal of sin, this opposition will cease again, though the distinction between heaven and earth, spirit and body, will remain in such a way, however, that the earthly and corporeal will be completely pervaded by the heavenly and spiritual, the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven to earth, and the earthly body being transfigured into a spiritual body (Rev. 21:1, 2; 1 Cor. 15:35f.). Hence, if in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, “there is nothing belonging to the composition of the universe, either in material or form, which had an existence out of God prior to this divine act in the beginning” (Delitzsch). This is also shown in the connection between our verse and the one which follows: “and the earth was without form and void,” not before, but when, or after God created it. From this it is evident that the void and formless state of the earth was not uncreated or without beginning. At the same time it is obvious from the creative acts which follow (vv. 3-18), that the heaven and earth, as God created them in the beginning, were not the well-ordered universe, but the world in its elementary form; just as Euripides applies the expression ουρανος και γαια to the undivided mass (μορφη μια), which was afterwards formed into heaven and earth.

1:2-5. The First Day. –Though treating of the creation of the heaven and the earth, the writer, both here and in what follows, describes with minuteness the original condition and progressive formation of the earth alone, and says nothing more respecting the heaven than is actually requisite in order to show its connection with the earth. He is writing for inhabitants of the earth, and for religious ends; not to gratify curiosity, but to strengthen faith in God, the Creator of the universe. What is said in v. 2 of the chaotic condition of the earth, is equally applicable to the heaven, “for the heaven proceeds from the same chaos as the earth.”

And the earth was (not became) waste and void.” The alliterative nouns tohu vabohu, the etymology of which is lost, signify waste and empty (barren), but not laying waste and desolating. Whenever they are used together in other places (Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23), they are taken from this passage; but tohu alone is frequently employed as synonymous with אין, non-existence, and הבל, nothingness (Isa. 40:17, 23; 49:4). The coming was at first waste and desolate, a formless, lifeless mass, rudis indigestaque moles, υλη αμορφος (Wisdom 11:17) or χαος.​

The problem with what you apparently believe, is that you have death before sin. You have the dinosaurs dying out before Adam and Eve sinned. That is because you erroneously try to mix "science" (evolutionary dung) with the Bible. Dinosaurs have ALWAYS lived with man. Apart from the flood, the reason we don't see the larger ones any more is because we hunted them to extinction. Prior to the word "dinosaur" being created, paleontologists referred to the bones of these creatures as "dragons." The "myths" of dragons are based on truth. NOT the mythology that has usurped their place in recent decades, as has the mythology of the unicorn. Look up a book by Thomas Hawkins called The Book of the Great Sea Dragons. Every creature identified in there by name we know today as "dinosaurs," yet they are all called "dragons." This book was written before the term "dinosaur" was used and coined.

Here's a lesson for you: The 1611 KJV spoke of unicorns. People nowadays attempt to mock Christians for believing in unicorns because it's mentioned in the Bible. In the 1828 Noah Webster American Dictionary of the English Language, if you look up the word "unicorn," you will see this definition: "An animal with one horn: the monoceros. This name is often applied to the rhinoceros." If you look up the word "rhinoceros," you will see this definition: "A genus of quadrupeds of two species, one of which, the unicorn, has a single horn growing almost erect from the nose. ... There is another species with two horns, the bicornis." Furthermore, so-called "scientists" who mock Christians regarding unicorns have discredited themselves as scientists because if they knew anything about science in the least, they would know that the SCIENTIFIC name for the single-horned rhinoceros is "unicornis." So, in roughly 100 years the definition for the word "unicorn" went from a real creature to a mythical creature, a creature most people will identify when asked what a unicorn is. The same has happened with dragons, and with the false teachings of Evolutionists, the facts and evidence concerning dragons around the world has been covered up. Most Americans are ignorant of the reality of the world outside their doors and believe nonsense the rest of the world laughs at them for. Watch a documentary called Dragons or Dinosaurs?, among others. Prior to the discovery of the first bones, history shows us EXACT images of what dinosaurs looked like. If they never saw them before because they died out "millions" of years earlier, then how were they able to sketch, carve, mold them into the EXACT likenesses we depict today?

You are attempting to force pseudo-science to agree with the Bible, when it does not. True science is based on the scientific method, which is hypothesis, testing, observation, conclusion. If you cannot test and observe it, it is NOT science. Those fools who speak of "going behind science" are talking about imagination. Imagination is NOT science, and science is NOT imagination. Contrary to the writing/vlogging of many fools who obviously have NO scientific background or education (like Richard Dawkins), science DOES try to prove/disprove things. Claiming that 90% or 99% (whichever it is) of the Earth's gold is in its core is NOT science. There is NO way you can test it or observe it. That's like saying there is NO gold in China. And there are NO "models" that could help them make such a statement with any kind of accuracy. Unfortunately, there is a LOT of crap taught in our schools as "science" that is NOT science. For example: water DOES NOT conduct electricity. Take a bottle of Aquafina, which is pure, and try to conduct electricity through it. It is the metals IN the water that conduct electricity--NOT the water itself.
 
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Crumbacher

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I started to wonder if Creationists even believe in the universe since I know they argue against the Big Bang. Since there was no concept of the universe when Genesis was written I am wondering if they also deny the universe in order to retain the earth centered view of all existence. Otherwise, I don't see how they can reconcile belief in Genesis with the modern view of the universe.

Your entire conversation is based solely on the desire to argue rather than to actually learn. You bring up nonsense in an attempt to disprove the Bible, then you create logical fallacies as part of your arguments. Your foolishness is old and has been refuted a thousands times over. Where do you figure there was no concept of the universe or of galaxies when Genesis was written? When God spoke the sun, moon, and stars into existence, He spoke the entire universe into existence. If you want Him to detail everything precisely and to speak on everything, you'd have one massive book on your hand that you wouldn't be able to carry around. And assuming the people at that time had no concept of any of that is a false assessment. If you study EVERYTHING pertaining to history, you will see without fail that people in the past were FAR more intelligent than we are today. Being technologically superior DOES NOT equal "smarter." Just look at the amount of information that we've forgotten. Look at the fact that we cannot figure out how they built ANYTHING, let alone buildings that are only a couple hundred centuries old. The biggest genius engineers we have today cannot figure out how they were able to do what they did. The Incas built walls that do not move in an earthquake, and are so precise they look like they were cut by lasers that you cannot fit a piece of paper between them. There is a mosque (or some temple) with two pillars inside, unjoined, not on any platform, that shift vibrations to each other. You can find all sorts of videos and documentaries talking about these amazing constructions of history, and yet NOBODY today knows how they were able to achieve it. Fact is, we are dumber today than any time throughout history. Even the dark ages. When you have a majority of idiots holding to a post-modern philosophy that says things are what I want them to be rather than what they are, I'd be surprised if society could be any dumber. Words have meanings and are NOT open to interpretation; people CAN BE right or wrong and there is NOTHING wrong with telling them they are wrong and correcting them; FACTS do not allow for personal opinions and a person's opinion MUST submit to FACT; and there ARE absolutes. Stating there are no absolutes is making an absolute statement, which negates the entire argument, thus proving absolutes.

Furthermore, something being created first does not make it centric in the least. Earth isn't the center of our solar system, it isn't the center of our galaxy, and it isn't the center of the universe. Never was, despite some people's insistence thereof during the past. The modern view of the universe is flawed. What's their current theory today? What's it going to be tomorrow? How many times has "science's" view of the universe changed over the centuries, and yet it STILL ignores the laws of our universe and simple mathematics, as well as the evidence around us, that continue to support the Bible's words?
 
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Crumbacher

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Ummm, excuse me, but in case you were not aware of it - it was a creationist that started the Big Bang theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

"was a Belgian priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Leuven. He proposed (independently of Russian physicist Alexander Friedman) the theory of the expansion of the universe, widely misattributed to Edwin Hubble. He was the first to derive what is now known as Hubble's law and made the first estimation of what is now called the Hubble constant, which he published in 1927, two years before Hubble's article. Lemaître also proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his "hypothesis of the primeval atom" or the "Cosmic Egg".

Which just tells me how much most really understand of it. So believe me when I say if I wanted to accept that obviously flawed creation theory being a creationist myself - the Big Bang would be the first stop on the list. It's flawed because it's wrong, because of their misconceptions of redshift.

Because the modern view of the universe is just as flawed as was the then modern view of the universe when the Milky-Way was the entire universe. Or before that the modern view of when the earth was the center.

It's simply because cosmologists refuse to treat plasma like it is treated in every single laboratory by plasma physicists. Instead expecting it to behave by physics for solids, liquids and gasses.

A creationist did NOT come up with the Big Bang theory. A belief in God, or a god, does not mean they are a creationist.
 
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Sorry, but your information is incorrect. The Hebrew word incorrectly translated "heaven" in Genesis 1:1 of the KJV is plural. In the beginning, God created ALL the heavens and the earth. You would do well to study the Bible rather than taking an English TRANSLATION at face value.
Any mistakes made ... such as your supposedly plural "heavens" in Genesis 1:1 ... was corrected by the King James writers.

Why should I change it back to plural, when the King James writers corrected it to singular?
 
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A creationist did NOT come up with the Big Bang theory. A belief in God, or a god, does not mean they are a creationist.
I would say one secret theistic evolutionists don't want you to know is:
Wikipedia said:
Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism or evolutionary creationism are views that ...
... they are creationists too.
 
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Crumbacher

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Hey it's science that says a meteor or comet killed off the dinosaurs and left all the fossils. Now you want to complain because I say the same thing? Do you know what "you" believe?

Sorry, but science says no such thing. Pseudo-science does, but NOT science. True science is based on what you can test and observe. If you cannot test and observe it, it is NOT science. If science doesn't prove or disprove anything, then you had better stop going to see the doctor because there's no way we can know how to cure any ailments or diseases. In fact, quit going to the gas station because there's no way we can know we won't one time be putting chocolate milk in there. Science DOES prove and disprove things. Science also DOES NOT and CANNOT explain everything. Just do a search for things science cannot explain and examine the results. Science cannot explain why we yawn or what causes it. I know of two things that cause it: sleep and hunger. In North America, when we yawn, people ask if we're tired. When I was in South America, if I yawned, people asked if I was hungry. I started to pay attention to my yawning and I noticed that if I was sleep deprived or hungry, I would yawn. Are these the only things that cause it? Still doesn't answer the question as to why. People who look to science or "science" to answer everything have turned science into a religion and they are worshiping it, whether they want to admit it or not.
 
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Crumbacher

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Any mistakes made ... such as your supposedly plural "heavens" in Genesis 1:1 ... was corrected by the King James writers.

Why should I change it back to plural, when the King James writers corrected it to singular?

Sorry, but the King James writers did NOT correct it. You're obviously one of those retards who believes in King James only. I suggest you read this article and education yourself: http://bereansdesk.blogspot.ca/2012/01/kjv-onlyism-vs-its-translators.html

The KJV is filled with errors in translation. It is not perfect, nor is any other translation. God did not promise to preserve His word in English--only to preserve it, which He has. Look at the number of manuscripts in existence. They testify to that fact. The 1611 KJV had marginal notes that KJV-Onlyists do not like because it undermines their idiocy and cult-orientation.

The original Hebrew word is plural. In Genesis 1:1 and 2:1 it uses the EXACT same word. So in your ignorance, how do you figure they corrected it when they are the EXACT same word? Be like the noble Bereans and go do your homework. Grab yourself a Lexicon or Hebrew Dictionary and look the word up.
 
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Crumbacher

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I would say one secret theistic evolutionists don't want you to know is:... they are creationists too.

By that ridiculous argument, then so are people who believe in the Big Bang. They believe dirt created everything. Ergo, creationists. Dirt created.
 
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So in your ignorance, how do you figure they corrected it when they are the EXACT same word?
You don't get it, do you, chief?

They are the exact same word, but the King James writers refused to translate this exact same word as "heavens".

Why is the word singular in Genesis 1:9?[VERSE=Genesis 1:9,KJV]And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.[/VERSE]Did they make a mistake there too?
Crumbacher said:
Grab yourself a Lexicon or Hebrew Dictionary and look the word up.
No, thanks.

The King James writers did that for us.
 
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By that ridiculous argument, then so are people who believe in the Big Bang. They believe dirt created everything. Ergo, creationists. Dirt created.
There's a LOT more to evolution than just biological evolution.

Cosmic evolution covers the whole show.
 
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Crumbacher

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You don't get it, do you, chief?

They are the exact same word, but the King James writers refused to translate this exact same word as "heavens".

Why is the word singular in Genesis 1:9?[VERSE=Genesis 1:9,KJV]And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.[/VERSE]Did they make a mistake there too?No, thanks.

The King James writers did that for us.

No, the King James writers did not do that for us. Your ignorance is laughable. Try reading the preface "The Translators to the Reader" in the 1611 KJV some time and pay VERY close attention to what they had to say.

  1. They believed the authority was in the originals.
    "The originall thereof being from heauen, not from earth; the authour being God, not man; the enditer, the holy spirit, not the wit of the Apostles or Prophets" (p.3).
  2. They believed in making new translations.
    "Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and auow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God" (p.7).
    "But the diference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with" (p.8).
  3. They believed they were not inspired, but translators.
    "Truly (good Christian Reader) wee neuer thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, but to make of a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one" (p.9).
  4. They believed in putting varying readings in the margin.
    "It hath pleased God in his diuine prouidence, here and there to scatter wordes and sentences of that difficultie and doubtfulnesse, not in doctrinall points that concerne saluation, (for in such it hath beene vouched that the Scripture are plaine) but in matters of lesse moment" (p.10)
    "That any varietie of readings of their vulgar edition, should be put in the margine … They that are wise, had rather haue their iudgements at libertie in differences of readings, then to be captiuated to one, when it may be another" (p.10).
  5. They said a variety of translations were necessary.
    "That varietie of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures" (p.10).
  6. They believed Scripture should be in common language.
    "But we desire that the Scripture may speake like it selfe, as in the language of Canaan, that it may bee vnderstood euen of the very vulgar" (p11).

The King James writers made MANY errors in translation, which you would know if you studied the Word of God in the least and were the least bit like the noble Bereans. Instead, you've bought into an idiocy that apparently believes the KJV writers corrected the original manuscripts. You're obviously one of those fools who thinks every Bible before and after the KJV are corrupt and the KJV is the only true Word of God. I pity ignorant fools like you.
 
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Try reading the preface "The Translators to the Reader" in the 1611 KJV some time and pay VERY close attention to what they had to say.
I don't care if they said Humpty Dumpty inspired them to translate the originals.

Where the originals differ from the King James Bible, the originals are wrong.

Simple as that.
 
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Crumbacher

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Crumbacher, why is "heaven" singular seven times in Genesis 1, and not plural once?

Correction. The Hebrew word for "heaven" in Genesis 1 is dual, not plural. Even though dual is technically plural. In the Hebrew language you have words that are singular, dual, and plural. Every occurrence of it in Genesis 1 is dual, which LITERALLY means "heavenS." Referring to the atmosphere and space. Not God's abode.

The KJV writers chose to translate it that way. Note: They TRANSLATED it that way--they DID NOT "correct" it. It was correct as it was originally written, which was inspired by God--unlike the KJV.

The literal translation of Genesis 1:1 is: "In the beginning Gods (plural) created (singular) the heavens (dual) and the earth." The word "God" being in the plural is an indication of the Trinity, as it obviously does not mean more than one god.
 
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Crumbacher

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I don't care if they said Humpty Dumpty inspired them to translate the originals.

Where the originals differ from the King James Bible, the originals are wrong.

Simple as that.

*LMAO* You are a complete and utter moron, Bub. You have it completely backwards. Where the King James Bible differs from the originals, the KJV is WRONG. Period! Simple as that. I suggest you wake up and come back to reality.
 
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The literal translation of Genesis 1:1 is: "In the beginning Gods (plural) created (singular) the heavens (dual) and the earth."
And the other six verses?

What about them?

Were the King James writers wrong in all seven verses?
 
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Crumbacher

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I don't care if they said Humpty Dumpty inspired them to translate the originals.

Where the originals differ from the King James Bible, the originals are wrong.

Simple as that.

The words of the KJV translators in the preface "The Translators to the Reader" in the 1611 KJV contradict all the stupidity and foolishness you believe, Bub. Try reading it some time and losing your pride and stubbornness and submitting yourself to the truth of Scripture and reality.
 
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Crumbacher

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And the other six verses?

What about them?

Were the King James writers wrong in all seven verses?

Yes, they were. I just told you that EVERY verse the word "heaven" is dual. They CHOSE to translate it singular, just as they CHOSE many other erroneous translations for words or phrases. They tell you in "The Translators to the Reader" that they WERE NOT inspired, but merely TRANSLATORS. Do you know what a translator is? Are you aware that it is IMPOSSIBLE to translate from one language to another with 100% accuracy? Are you aware of reality in general? Because your statements thus far would lead me to believe otherwise.
 
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