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Do Creationists Believe in the Universe

KWCrazy

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I am reading another literal interpretation of Genesis in which it argues that the creation events of the fourth day only made things visible as they had been obscured from view due to the accretion disk from the formation of the earth. In other words the sun, moon and stars were there all along. So is it just a matter of understanding its interpretation?
Genesis 1:
16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

That sounds to me like a creation, not a revealing.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Personally I am more accepting of the allegorical view. I view literal Genesis as something intended to satisfy the minds of an earlier people. Otherwise it appears to be such a struggle to understand in terms of today.

Lets see.

Bible - plants first (algae, etc.)
Evolution - plants first (algae, etc.)

Bible - water life
Evolution - water life

Bible - land life, reptiles
Evolution - land life, reptiles

Bible - mammals and man
Evolution - mammals and man

So because evolutionist's stole the order from the Bible because they knew it was correct, stole a priests theory of the creation of the universe, and twisted it all to suit their ends, why would it be a struggle to understand in today's terms? Especially when today's terms - such as evolution by mutation - is wrong?

Do you have trouble understanding breed mating with breed producing new breeds (variation) within the species? All done through the recombination of genes producing new dominant and recessive traits? All done without any evolution through mutation and without any transitory species. Just like in cosmology they ask I accept 95% Fairie Dust, while ignoring what we observe.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I am reading another literal interpretation of Genesis in which it argues that the creation events of the fourth day only made things visible as they had been obscured from view due to the accretion disk from the formation of the earth. In other words the sun, moon and stars were there all along. So is it just a matter of understanding its interpretation?

Exactly. Heat leads to evaporation. Evaporation leads to the waters being separated and dry land appearing. As these waters (mist - clouds - ash) from the destruction that killed the dinosaurs cleared, the stars became visible in the heavens - and were then "appointed" made to serve - as signs for seasons and years.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-14.htm

Notice how they translate the questioned verse where it is claimed God then "made" them.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-16.htm

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6213.htm

Not the same word as in verse one denoting creation, nor that used for creatures:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-21.htm

Nor man:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-27.htm


Take what you will from it, but just don't confuse the original Hebrew with what is attempted to pass as scripture this day and age.
 
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pat34lee

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Exactly. Heat leads to evaporation. Evaporation leads to the waters being separated and dry land appearing. As these waters (mist - clouds - ash) from the destruction that killed the dinosaurs cleared, the stars became visible in the heavens - and were then "appointed" made to serve - as signs for seasons and years.

When was this supposed destruction of the dinosaurs?

Not the same word as in verse one denoting creation, nor that used for creatures:
Nor man:

Those are very different types of creation. Would you call painting, sculpture, drawing and photography the same because they are all artistic expressions? There is creation from nothing, special creation of man, creation of heavenly bodies and creation of living creatures. Only the first created new matter. The rest used what was here except for man's creation, which also required the breath of Yahweh.
 
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Bassmode

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I started to wonder if Creationists even believe in the universe since I know they argue against the Big Bang. Since there was no concept of the universe when Genesis was written I am wondering if they also deny the universe in order to retain the earth centered view of all existence. Otherwise, I don't see how they can reconcile belief in Genesis with the modern view of the universe.

I'm a Creationist and I of course I believe in the universe ! look at these verses

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psa 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Also even before modern science worked at Orion and Pleiads God told us about them !

Job 9:9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

But I do not believe in the universe as a "force" that we can tap into as the new age movement or Hinduism teaches ! Rather it is God's wonderful creation.

Also God tell us in the very first verse that He created the universe !
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And also in these two verses

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
 
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Givemeareason

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Lets see.

Bible - plants first (algae, etc.)
Evolution - plants first (algae, etc.)

Bible - water life
Evolution - water life

Bible - land life, reptiles
Evolution - land life, reptiles

Bible - mammals and man
Evolution - mammals and man

So because evolutionist's stole the order from the Bible because they knew it was correct, stole a priests theory of the creation of the universe, and twisted it all to suit their ends, why would it be a struggle to understand in today's terms? Especially when today's terms - such as evolution by mutation - is wrong?

Do you have trouble understanding breed mating with breed producing new breeds (variation) within the species? All done through the recombination of genes producing new dominant and recessive traits? All done without any evolution through mutation and without any transitory species. Just like in cosmology they ask I accept 95% Fairie Dust, while ignoring what we observe.

Actually sciece (not just evolution) is a bit more complicated than that. According to science, the earth formed 4.5 billion years ago and spent its first billion years cooling down and becoming habitable enough for life to appear. Then life appeared and single celled organisms ruled the earth for 2.9 billion years before multicellular life appeared. Then multicellular life developed (before the development of plants) and for the next 0.6 billion years continued branching to finally result in us. At least that's what science says?
 
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stevenfrancis

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The big bang is not only believed by most creationists, but it seems to me, anyway, an important element to the creation. It proves there is a force which instantly created somethingness out of nothingness. We call that force God. It is a proof for God. Not something to be avoided. In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. Bang.
 
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stevenfrancis

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Do you believe in galaxies?... no mention of those in Genesis. What is in the model of the universe that you believe in and how does that universe compare to the model created by science? How do Boolean standards enable your view?
Genesis is not a cosmology text book. There is no argument with science. It is a book about the development of mankind. It quickly runs through what would eventually be thousands of pages of scientific data/text regarding all that jazz. That's not the intent or heart of the story. Galaxies and what not. Genesis is simply this. God created everything from nothing. He made the water, vegetation, land, land animals, sea animals and then mankind. (I don't think I have the order right. I'm not looking at a bible right now). Seven is a number signifying completion in ancient Hebraic language. So six periods of time of creation, and one period of time for rest. The real heart of Genesis is after the few paragraphs establishing creation. The take away from the beginning is that God created the universe and everything in it, and a part of that creation was our planet, Earth, and most important of all our species.....man... The rest of the entire Bible, in one way or another, describes the only important take away from the opening chapters. The development of relationship and covenants with mankind. i.e. The fall man. The entry of sin. The internal sickness of the soul in mankind. The great flood, and re-generation of mankind under a new covenant. The formation of God's chosen people, the formation into Judges, the formation into kingdom, and most important out of the entire Bible, the need of man kind for salvation. God sending prophets regarding the coming of a saviour. and of course, at last, the fulfillment of all prophecy, and history. The whole point of everything. The incarnation of God as man, fulfilling ALL prophecy, and forever altering the meaning, and destiny of mankind. THAT'S the point. Not the tiny allusion to science in the first couple paragraphs that people spend so much time and ink on. These books were inspired by God, the creator of the universe. They don't intend to preclude Newton and Capernicus. Just as Newton and Capernicus didn't intend to preclude the Doctor's, Popes, and Saints of the Church. Faith and reason. Science and religion. They are not intended to be at odds with one another. They both have completely valid origin and pretext. They both have an intrinsic right to be here in the universe, and both have the authority to speak the truth to the point that they don't attack or attempt to dismiss or humiliate the other. Let scientists do what they are supposed to do.....measure and report on God's creation for potential use in invention and technology, (so long as the technology is moral in use). And let the Church do what it does. Describe how to live within God's creation so that we may live life to the full, keep within moral and ethical boundaries, and help us get to live with God for eternity. Working together would make more sense than scientists trying to use their skills to rove AGAINST God (which can't be done), instead of explaining how he DOES exist in spite of some things we haven't quite worked out yet. (the real job and the real challenge. Science shouldn't be conducted with a hatred toward God. It never was in the past. I doubt if it is now. There are just a handful of louder than most, atheist intellectuals who are vocal enough to want to bring about turmoil and discord. There are a small handful, relatively, of Christian anti-intellectual fundamentalists who, by the animosity towards science, which stems from, who knows what, wish also to bring about turmoil and discord, instead of just preaching the Gospel, and describing faith and morals (the job of the Church), and not telescoping in to the first three pages of a 1,200 page book meant to be a road map to the thoughts of God, and a document of the life, passion, death, and resurrection of God among us in Jesus Christ.

I'm probably not phrasing all this correctly. But it is my hope that this covers the main points, and is not taken as snark, anger, or any such thing. These are my observations as a man in a confused world, just like everyone else. It seems everyone wants all phenomena to be just one easy thing they can put in their pocket. It's just not. Existence is messy. It is because the describers of existence, whether inspired by God, or inspired by Pythagorius, are messy. People are messy. Life is messy. It's actually, I am coming to believe, constructed that way on purpose by our Lord, so that we maintain an element of humility, which keeps us honest, if we let it. We ALL need to be taken down a peg or two, lest we all become absolutists, and fundamentalists, yet we also need to stay tight enough that we don't become moral relativists. It's a fine line walking through a twisted crooked landscape, but that narrow road is the one the Christian is called to. Beware of leaving the road and getting caught up, by pride, with what lives on either side of the path.
 
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Ben West

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Genesis is not a cosmology text book. There is no argument with science. It is a book about the development of mankind. It quickly runs through what would eventually be thousands of pages of scientific data/text regarding all that jazz. That's not the intent or heart of the story. Galaxies and what not. Genesis is simply this. God created everything from nothing. He made the water, vegetation, land, land animals, sea animals and then mankind. (I don't think I have the order right. I'm not looking at a bible right now). Seven is a number signifying completion in ancient Hebraic language. So six periods of time of creation, and one period of time for rest. The real heart of Genesis is after the few paragraphs establishing creation. The take away from the beginning is that God created the universe and everything in it, and a part of that creation was our planet, Earth, and most important of all our species.....man... The rest of the entire Bible, in one way or another, describes the only important take away from the opening chapters.

Amen. To be precise, the first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the complete HISTORY of God's Seven Day Creation of the perfect Third Heaven, including events which will NOT happen until AFTER Jesus returns at the end of the present 6th Day and changes ALL living creatures into Vegetarians. Gen 1:30 Then and only then, God will say, It is very good. Gen 1:31

Beginning at Gen 2:4 the narrative takes us BACK to the events of the 3rd Day when Adam's Earth was made and adds details, such as the Fact that man was formed from the dust on the THIRD Day. Gen 2:4-7 The ENTIRETY of the rest of the Bible refers BACK to one of God's 7 Days. When you know what Day it is, the Bible becomes easier to understand. God Bless you
 
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Justatruthseeker

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When was this supposed destruction of the dinosaurs?

Before the creation of man.



Those are very different types of creation. Would you call painting, sculpture, drawing and photography the same because they are all artistic expressions? There is creation from nothing, special creation of man, creation of heavenly bodies and creation of living creatures. Only the first created new matter.

And? The Bible tells you each is a different creation, except for the 4th day - which uses no creation terms whatsoever as it does for each of the others. The only place the earth or heavens is mentioned in relation to creation is in verse one.

The rest used what was here except for man's creation, which also required the breath of Yahweh.

You need to reread your Bible, or better yet an interlinear one. All the animals are called nephesh, just like man.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5315.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/proverbs/12-10.htm

Nothing but living beings that can die. The only thing God did for man that He didn't do for the animals is give man the knowledge of good. God withheld that gift of immortality because man gained the knowledge of evil as well through the serpents deceit.

http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-22.htm

That "soul" as you want to call it is NOT immortal.

The soul that is sinning, it itself will die.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/18-20.htm

The Bible gives nothing to man not given to the animals except knowledge and dominion (caretaker). The animals also received this breath of life called ruarch and became living souls (beings).

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/3-21.htm
 
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Givemeareason

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Amen. To be precise, the first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the complete HISTORY of God's Seven Day Creation of the perfect Third Heaven, including events which will NOT happen until AFTER Jesus returns at the end of the present 6th Day and changes ALL living creatures into Vegetarians. Gen 1:30 Then and only then, God will say, It is very good. Gen 1:31

Beginning at Gen 2:4 the narrative takes us BACK to the events of the 3rd Day when Adam's Earth was made and adds details, such as the Fact that man was formed from the dust on the THIRD Day. Gen 2:4-7 The ENTIRETY of the rest of the Bible refers BACK to one of God's 7 Days. When you know what Day it is, the Bible becomes easier to understand. God Bless you

Are you trying to reconcile Science with Genesis yet by talking about the days of creation vs the billions of years?
 
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Givemeareason

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The Bible gives nothing to man not given to the animals except knowledge and dominion (caretaker). The animals also received this breath of life called ruarch and became living souls (beings).

What about all the animals that don't breath and all the single cell organisms that dominated our planet for 2.9 billion years according to science?
 
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Ben West

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Are you trying to reconcile Science with Genesis yet by talking about the days of creation vs the billions of years?

No. I'm just posting what Genesis actually says. it tell us that we live Today on the 6th Creative Day because God is STILL creating Adam (mankind) in His Image, which is to be born again Spiritually in Christ. We will continue to be at Gen 1:27 until AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth and changes all creatures into Vegetarians as Gen 1:30 states at the end of the present 6th Day. The FULFILLMENT of the Prophecy of Gen 1:30 can be found in Isaiah 11 which shows the time AFTER Jesus returns to Earth to rule and reign, when animals must have a dental change along with many other changes, from meat eaters to eating green herbs for meat. Isaiah 11:7 states that Lions will eat Straw like the Ox.

BTW, At NO time in past History has EVERY creature been a Vegetarian. Sabre toothed Tigers come to mind. Today is STILL the 6th Creative Day. This Day began when the beasts of the field and birds were made and Adam named them. Gen 2:19 Can you tell us HOW long the present 6th Day/period of work will last?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What about all the animals that don't breath and all the single cell organisms that dominated our planet for 2.9 billion years according to science?

I'm pretty sure God invigorated them with the life force too, or they would still be dust. I don't confuse that energy that is in all things, and from which all things come - God (Mind) - with wind. Wind was an analogy to describe the in-rushing of that power - something the common man at that time could relate to. Since the Bible is good for all times and era's, it must now relate to these times. Don't neglect to relate the flow of energy in these times (our concept) - with the flow of wind (their concept in their times). Wind only happens because energy is added to the system.

EDIT:
You ain't dead just because your heart may momentarily stop, and no breath passes into your lungs. In our concept in our times, you ain't dead until all electrical activity in your brain ceases - when that happens only God can reverse it, being energy (Mind), until then man can with fairly regular success.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Actually sciece (not just evolution) is a bit more complicated than that. According to science, the earth formed 4.5 billion years ago and spent its first billion years cooling down and becoming habitable enough for life to appear. Then life appeared and single celled organisms ruled the earth for 2.9 billion years before multicellular life appeared. Then multicellular life developed (before the development of plants) and for the next 0.6 billion years continued branching to finally result in us. At least that's what science says?

Yah well, they still ain't got it right. From these theories of how they believe galaxies form - and how stars form and how planets form - not one of their models made correct predictions of what we actually observed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere

""The IBEX results are truly remarkable! What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."

It does not match because your belief in how things form is flawed from the start.

I'd say your claiming we "think" we know, when the observations say they don't have a clue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...hundreds-new-worlds-left-experts-baffled.html

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130919-solving-a-planet-sized-problem

The theories tell you you have not a clue as to the age of anything or how they form. Your own belief in a universe that is expanding at an accelerating rate dispels any notion of being able to trace anything back accurately more than a few hundred thousand years. An initial expansion supposedly faster than c - that has been increasing since the beginning. In a science that tells you rulers shrink and clocks slow with acceleration. The reverse of which is clocks speed up and rulers get bigger the farther back in time one calculates. So the further back one goes - the faster the decay rate occurred compared with time as we calculate it today. But I expect now you will want to ignore Relativity in this case?

Science says nothing of the sort - they interpret the data to what they want it to say, which is why dating gives wide ranges, because you are trying to use clocks that have slowed - and rulers that have shrunk to date things that transpired at a different rate than today.

All you need do is examine the second hand on a clock. The tip moves faster than a point near the hub, but the tip has further to travel and it's duration is longer than that point near the hub (rulers shrink, clocks slow). But because you call both unequal distances the same - and both unequal elapses of time the same - you confuse proportionality with sameness. Science - the fact we know rulers shrink and clocks slow with acceleration - says they don't know what they speak of.

http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~moyer/GEOS24705/Assignments/Velocities.pdf
 
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pat34lee

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Before the creation of man.

Then you have a strange definition of 'good' which in the case of creation, meant 'perfect'. God called things good six times through Genesis 1 and then in the last verse:
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I won't get into more of this here, but if the earth were destroyed and rebuilt, then how did very fragile fossils survive?

And? The Bible tells you each is a different creation, except for the 4th day - which uses no creation terms whatsoever as it does for each of the others. The only place the earth or heavens is mentioned in relation to creation is in verse one.

That is because the earth was built only once. Instead of speaking it fully formed, he made earth and water and sculpted it, physically placing the water and land.

I think you're reading someone's proofs, and not the bible. No creation terms on the 4th day?

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

All the animals are called nephesh, just like man.

Man is the only living thing with a soul. That is what God breathed into Adam.


That "soul" as you want to call it is NOT immortal.

It is not mortal either, as it lives on when the body dies. Otherwise we would not need a new body made incorruptible. It is not eternal though, until and unless God makes it so.

The Bible gives nothing to man not given to the animals except knowledge and dominion (caretaker). The animals also received this breath of life called ruarch and became living souls (beings).

Now you are creating doctrine from whole cloth. We are the only creatures able to remember the past, share information, store it, put together information from different sources, plan and build for the future. God gave animals instinctual behavior to help them survive, but they cannot reason and animals have no morality or ethical codes.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Then you have a strange definition of 'good' which in the case of creation, meant 'perfect'. God called things good six times through Genesis 1 and then in the last verse:
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I won't get into more of this here, but if the earth were destroyed and rebuilt, then how did very fragile fossils survive?

Hey it's science that says a meteor or comet killed off the dinosaurs and left all the fossils. Now you want to complain because I say the same thing? Do you know what "you" believe?

That is because the earth was built only once. Instead of speaking it fully formed, he made earth and water and sculpted it, physically placing the water and land.
Yes He did, in verse one.

I think you're reading someone's proofs, and not the bible. No creation terms on the 4th day?

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Because you didn't even bother to look up the Hebrew words I conveniently provided you so you wouldn't have to be bothered with searching diligently.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6213.htm

So God accomplished clearing the waters and dust from the air and the stars became visible.

Versus:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1254.htm


Man is the only living thing with a soul. That is what God breathed into Adam

The Bible says you are wrong, the same nephesh translated soul is used to describe the animals too. The same ruarch used to describe the breath to man is used of animals too. The only difference is one was given knowledge.

It is not mortal either, as it lives on when the body dies. Otherwise we would not need a new body made incorruptible. It is not eternal though, until and unless God makes it so.

No it doesn't.

http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

It's Satan that started that lie: "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman."

Why perpetuate it?

God "remembers" us, because He is Mind and reforms us. Hence the memorial tomb.

Now you are creating doctrine from whole cloth. We are the only creatures able to remember the past, share information, store it, put together information from different sources, plan and build for the future. God gave animals instinctual behavior to help them survive, but they cannot reason and animals have no morality or ethical codes.

What do you think I told you? I told you that only man was given knowledge of good and evil - to reason above the animals. You simply affirm what I stated already. It is that of which the image comprises. The image no image can be made of, for no image can be made of God who is pure Mind - Thought - Consciousness.
 
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Givemeareason

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Yah well, they still ain't got it right. From these theories of how they believe galaxies form - and how stars form and how planets form - not one of their models made correct predictions of what we actually observed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere

""The IBEX results are truly remarkable! What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."

It does not match because your belief in how things form is flawed from the start.

I'd say your claiming we "think" we know, when the observations say they don't have a clue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...hundreds-new-worlds-left-experts-baffled.html

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130919-solving-a-planet-sized-problem

The theories tell you you have not a clue as to the age of anything or how they form. Your own belief in a universe that is expanding at an accelerating rate dispels any notion of being able to trace anything back accurately more than a few hundred thousand years. An initial expansion supposedly faster than c - that has been increasing since the beginning. In a science that tells you rulers shrink and clocks slow with acceleration. The reverse of which is clocks speed up and rulers get bigger the farther back in time one calculates. So the further back one goes - the faster the decay rate occurred compared with time as we calculate it today. But I expect now you will want to ignore Relativity in this case?

Science says nothing of the sort - they interpret the data to what they want it to say, which is why dating gives wide ranges, because you are trying to use clocks that have slowed - and rulers that have shrunk to date things that transpired at a different rate than today.

All you need do is examine the second hand on a clock. The tip moves faster than a point near the hub, but the tip has further to travel and it's duration is longer than that point near the hub (rulers shrink, clocks slow). But because you call both unequal distances the same - and both unequal elapses of time the same - you confuse proportionality with sameness. Science - the fact we know rulers shrink and clocks slow with acceleration - says they don't know what they speak of.

http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~moyer/GEOS24705/Assignments/Velocities.pdf

Those are all very fascinating links and they indeed show that science keeps growing as new information is gathered. New theories are being developed and old theories are being revised. That is the nature of science and nothing has changed in that regard. That however in no way suggests that biblical creation is going to be proven correct or that the earth was somehow created before the rest of the universe.
 
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Crumbacher

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That's not what the Bible says.

It says:[VERSE=Genesis 1:1,KJV]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.[/VERSE]Note "heaven" in Verse 1 is singular.

It is not until Genesis 2:1, after the creation week, that we see "heaven" plural.[VERSE=Genesis 2:1,KJV]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.[/VERSE]All three of them are containment areas, populated by specific objets d'art.

First Heaven = 0-62 miles up = the atomosphere = populated by the air, clouds, birds, etc.

Second Heaven = 62 miles-edge of universe = outer space = populated by planets, moons, stars, etc.

Third Heaven = Heaven proper = populated by Crystal Sea, Throne of God, mansions under construction, etc.

Sorry, but your information is incorrect. The Hebrew word incorrectly translated "heaven" in Genesis 1:1 of the KJV is plural. In the beginning, God created ALL the heavens and the earth. You would do well to study the Bible rather than taking an English TRANSLATION at face value.
 
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