Do Church of Christ Believe....

ParsonJefferson

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Wonder if Nadab and Abihu (Lev 10) or Uzzah (2 Sam 6) think they did wrong in what they did? Their intentions may have been good, but in the end they did not respect God's authority. One may think, what harm can a little instrumental music do, as Uzzah may have tho't what harm can there be in keeping the ark of God from falling to the ground. A seemingly small, insignificant issue with severe consequences.

It is VERY interesting that you mention 2nd Samuel 6 - and how men were put to death for disobeying God.

Did you happen to read verse 5 of that chapter? "David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals."

So the people were NOT "condemned" or "put to death" for using instruments in their worship celebration.

I find it VERY interesting that you missed that verse!
 
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RefrusRevlis

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Actually Refrus, I think his comparison is spot on!

If for years you had sent your kids to the store to buy groceries, and every time let them get a comic book, how or why would they know that suddenly you had forbidden them from buying a comic book - UNLESS you told them NOT to. Your silence in the matter would NOT be adequate for them to know that it was forbidden.

Something that has always been allowed does NOT become "forbidden" due to silence.

If I had let my children go to the store for years and allowed them to buy a comic, they would have had a way to interpret my silence. If I had said "only buy what is on the list" and did not reprimand them for buying comics, this would speak of my weakness. If I had said "here is a list of some things to get, make sure you get" and not told to only get things on the list, they might have reason to think they were allowed to buy other things.

This is not the case with God.

How to interpret silence is important. The Bible tells us how to interpret its own silence in saying that it equips us for every good work (2Tim3:16-17). The Bible gives us everything we need for life and godliness 2 Peter1:3. It also tells us that what is not of faith is sin, Romans 14:23. Since faith comes from the word of God (Romans 10:17) - if the scripture is silent about it, it is not a good work.

The phrase
Something that has always been allowed does NOT become "forbidden" due to silence.

If it has been allowed, this implies permission and if there is permission there is not silence. For someone must have given permission. This does not apply to musical instrument, for nothing in the NT permits or commands musical instruments in the worship.
Refrus
 
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crawfish

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It is VERY interesting that you mention 2nd Samuel 6 - and how men were put to death for disobeying God.

Did you happen to read verse 5 of that chapter? "David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals."

So the people were NOT "condemned" or "put to death" for using instruments in their worship celebration.

I find it VERY interesting that you missed that verse!
Good points. Also note that Uzzah had the Ark in his father's home for 20 years; Nadab and Abihu were sons of Aaron and priests. The laws were spelled out quite explicitly, and they were in positions where they cannot possibly not have known the law OR its consequences. They were careless and disrespectful, and paid the price for it.

Tough to apply this to an "implied" rule (from your perspective) in the age of grace.
 
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ParsonJefferson

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If I had let my children go to the store for years and allowed them to buy a comic, they would have had a way to interpret my silence. If I had said "only buy what is on the list" and did not reprimand them for buying comics, this would speak of my weakness. If I had said "here is a list of some things to get, make sure you get" and not told to only get things on the list, they might have reason to think they were allowed to buy other things.

This is not the case with God.

How to interpret silence is important. The Bible tells us how to interpret its own silence in saying that it equips us for every good work (2Tim3:16-17). The Bible gives us everything we need for life and godliness 2 Peter1:3. It also tells us that what is not of faith is sin, Romans 14:23. Since faith comes from the word of God (Romans 10:17) - if the scripture is silent about it, it is not a good work.

The phrase

If it has been allowed, this implies permission and if there is permission there is not silence. For someone must have given permission. This does not apply to musical instrument, for nothing in the NT permits or commands musical instruments in the worship.
Refrus

God's people used instruments, in worship, throughout the Old Testament.

NOTHING in the New Testament comes even close to forbidding it.

Therefore...
 
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ParsonJefferson

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Good points. Also note that Uzzah had the Ark in his father's home for 20 years; Nadab and Abihu were sons of Aaron and priests. The laws were spelled out quite explicitly, and they were in positions where they cannot possibly not have known the law OR its consequences. They were careless and disrespectful, and paid the price for it.

Tough to apply this to an "implied" rule (from your perspective) in the age of grace.

On a personal note, and one that deviates from the topic of this thread, I do find it very sad, odd and tough to understand exactly why these men were put to death. There is more to the story than what immediately meets the eye, as one reads the narrative in English.
 
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RefrusRevlis

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God's people used instruments, in worship, throughout the Old Testament.

NOTHING in the New Testament comes even close to forbidding it.

Therefore...

What happened in the OT is irrelevant. We are not under the OT.

There is no verse or combination of verses which:

Explicitly or implicitly command, permit or condemn the use of musical instruments in NT worship.

There is silence.

Silence however, is addressed by the Bible:

Faith comes from God's word (Romans 10:17)
If something is not of faith it is sin (Romas 14:23).
Therefore since the Bible is silent about musical instruments in NT worship, the use of them is not of faith and therefore must be sin.

Refrus:)
 
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jmacvols

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It is VERY interesting that you mention 2nd Samuel 6 - and how men were put to death for disobeying God.

Did you happen to read verse 5 of that chapter? "David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals."

So the people were NOT "condemned" or "put to death" for using instruments in their worship celebration.

I find it VERY interesting that you missed that verse!

---David did not live under the NT law where instrumental music is not authorized. You appeal to the OT law for justification to use instrumental music. THe Galatians returned to the OT law for circumcision and Paul told them 'ye are fallen from grace' and were debtors to do the whole law. For anyone today to use David as their "proof" for instrumental music, they too have fallen from grace and are debtors to keep the whole law. If David is our example/pattern for worship today, then in Psalms 66:13-15, we see that David offer animal sacrifices. You too are required to keep the animal sacrifices, purifications and all the ordinances of the OT law also. You cannot go back to the OT and pick and choose what you like and ignore what you do not like, you are debtor to the whole law.

---David lived under the OT law, which contained "carnal ordinances", Heb 9:10. The OT system was based around physical elements, the use of instrumental music is canality.


---It was David's ordinance, not God's, to use instrumental music, 1 Ch 15:16; 23:5, 2 Ch 29:26,27. It was God's plan one husband and one wife, yet in 2 Sam 5:13 Daivd had many concubines and wives. David was never commanded to separate from all these wives, so polygamy, along with musical instruments, must be acceptable for us today, according to your "reasoning".
 
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crawfish

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What happened in the OT is irrelevant. We are not under the OT.

There is no verse or combination of verses which:

Explicitly or implicitly command, permit or condemn the use of musical instruments in NT worship.

There is silence.

Silence however, is addressed by the Bible:

Faith comes from God's word (Romans 10:17)
If something is not of faith it is sin (Romas 14:23).
Therefore since the Bible is silent about musical instruments in NT worship, the use of them is not of faith and therefore must be sin.

Refrus:)

This conversation is just going around in a big circle. I don't think there's anything left to be said - you don't accept our interpretation and we don't accept yours.

I certainly don't expect or desire you to change your mind. Romans 14 comes to mind - since it's a sin in your mind, it WOULD be a sin if you participated, and thus you should not.

However: the traditional, non-IM churches are shrinking overall. Many kids today aren't sharing the biases of their parents. CofC colleges are producing ministers that are increasingly choosing non-denominational, IM churches to lead. I pray that your faith is prepared for the inevitable.
 
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jmacvols

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God's people used instruments, in worship, throughout the Old Testament.

NOTHING in the New Testament comes even close to forbidding it.

Therefore...


Therefore having hot dogs and cokes for the Lord's Supper is acceptable because nothing in the bible explicitly forbides these elements?

Do you pray to "Mother Mary" as the Catholics do, after all, nothing in the bible explicitly forbids it.

What if you took your car to a mechanic and told him to change the oil and oil filter. You come back later to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $4000.00. The itemized bill shows that he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also put on new tires, new brakes, new water pump, new plugs, etc, etc. You say, but I told you to change the oil and oil filter. The mechanic replies, yes, but you did not explicitly forbid me to do all these other things.

You hire a new employee for your business and tell him to report in the morning by 8 am. He shows up at 4 pm in the afternoon. After all, you did not explicitly forbid him showing up at 4pm.

You tell you child to clean his room. An hour later you check on him and instead of cleaning his room he is playing video games. You say didn't I tell you to clean your room? The child replies, yes daddy, but you didn't say not to play the video games.

One could not live their life this way. One would have to go thru virtually endless "not to" lists in order to eliminate everything but the thing they wanted. No one would live their life this way or have their words treated as such.


God said to "sing" but many argue that nowhere did God explicitly forbid instruments.

Yet people treat God's words in a way they would not want their own words treated.

We operate around the law of inclusion and exclusion. When God said to "sing" then that includes singing and excludes everything else. God does not have to explicitly forbid instruments, hand clapping, whistling, humming etc., until He elimnates everything but singing, He just simply has to say 'sing', that excludes everything else.
 
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crawfish

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We operate around the law of inclusion and exclusion. When God said to "sing" then that includes singing and excludes everything else. God does not have to explicitly forbid instruments, hand clapping, whistling, humming etc., until He elimnates everything but singing, He just simply has to say 'sing', that excludes everything else.

Smiling. You forgot smiling. The fires of hell await for anyone who dares crack a smile in church.
 
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ParsonJefferson

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Therefore having hot dogs and cokes for the Lord's Supper is acceptable because nothing in the bible explicitly forbides these elements?
Sure - after you drive your CAR to church.

Do you pray to "Mother Mary" as the Catholics do, after all, nothing in the bible explicitly forbids it.
Nope, I don't.

What if you took your car to a mechanic and told him to change the oil and oil filter. You come back later to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $4000.00. The itemized bill shows that he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also put on new tires, new brakes, new water pump, new plugs, etc, etc. You say, but I told you to change the oil and oil filter. The mechanic replies, yes, but you did not explicitly forbid me to do all these other things.
Wrong.
If I told him - specifically - do change the oil and filter, and he put in a new engine, he's not going to get paid.

The New Testament says NOTHING about congregational singing. Therefore, you are prohibited - by your own reasoning - from singing at all as a congregation.

You hire a new employee for your business and tell him to report in the morning by 8 am. He shows up at 4 pm in the afternoon. After all, you did not explicitly forbid him showing up at 4pm.
Wrong again.
Non sequitur.
If he was explicitly told to come to work at 8:00 AM, that's specific instruction. No silence involved.

You tell you child to clean his room. An hour later you check on him and instead of cleaning his room he is playing video games. You say didn't I tell you to clean your room? The child replies, yes daddy, but you didn't say not to play the video games.
100% wrong again.
He was told to clean his room.
IF he had cleaned his room, and was playing video games after cleaning his room, that would be fine.

Non sequitur.

One could not live their life this way. One would have to go thru virtually endless "not to" lists in order to eliminate everything but the thing they wanted. No one would live their life this way or have their words treated as such.
YOU live YOUR life EXACTLY this way EVERY DAY.

God said to "sing" but many argue that nowhere did God explicitly forbid instruments.
God specifically spoke of "psalms" - which are songs accompanied by a stringed instrument.
Perhaps YOU should consider Ephesians 5:19, where God is NOT silent about what should be done!

Yet people treat God's words in a way they would not want their own words treated.
And YOU read into God's Word all manner of things that absolutely are NOT there.

We operate around the law of inclusion and exclusion. When God said to "sing" then that includes singing and excludes everything else.
When Ephesians 5:19 says to sing to each other in Psalms - which, by definition, are songs accompanied by a stringed instrument, you SIMPLY IGNORE THAT SCRIPTURE.

God does not have to explicitly forbid instruments, hand clapping, whistling, humming etc., until He elimnates everything but singing, He just simply has to say 'sing', that excludes everything else.
So now HUMMING is forbidden? CLAPPING is forbidden?
Is STANDING also forbidden? How about SITTING? Is that forbidden, because we're not told to sit while singing?

I'm sorry, but these are some of the most irrelevant arguments I can possibly imagine.
 
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jmacvols

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That's good, because the NT never authorizes it.
It does allow for expediency. If ones smiles or frowns while they sing, that does not add to what they are doing; simply singing. If one smiles while playing an instrument, then the smiling adds nothing, but the playing does.

So what I am getting from this is that when you say something, your language does not have to be explicit, yet God's has to be explicit about every little thing???
 
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jmacvols

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I'm sorry, but these are some of the most irrelevant arguments I can possibly imagine.

----How one gets to church is a matter of expediency.
Are hot dogs and cokes a matter of expediency or not?

---Why don't you pray to "Mother Mary"? It's not specifically forbidden. You list your self as "non-denominatinal". Do you agree or disagree with this and other Catholic teachings as Holy Water, transubstantiation, purgatory etc.?

---So if you "specifically" tell the mechanic to change the oil and he put a new engine in, you would not pay him.

What's the difference when God specifically said to sing, and you add instruments to it? You do something extra you were not specifically told to do.

---You said the new employee was told specifically to be at work at 8am, that specific instructions.

God said to specifically sing, that is specific instruction also. The employer was silent about showing up at 4pm, but we all understand the new worker was to be there at 8am.


---the little boy was told to clean his room as we are told to sing. Going beyond this is doing more than what was told...it's adding to.


-------------------------------

Eph 5:19, the word psalm simply means a pious song, that may or may not refer to one in the OT book. The instrument in this context that is to be played is the human heart....it says making melody with your heart as opposed to saying make melody with a piano.

---------------------------------

Standing or sitting adds nothing to singing, in the end, all one doing is singing as God instructed regardless of his position. Humming and clapping is not singing, therfeore adds to what God has said.
 
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crawfish

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I only mention smiling because, as a child, an elderly man told me how serious the bible was and we were supposed to worship with that kind of attitude. Smiling was a sign of disrespect. I saw a visiting preacher crack a little joke in a sermon once and not a single person so much as snickered. Except me (I got quite a few nasty stares).

Problem is the implicit isn't even REMOTELY justified in this case. As I mentioned before.

Big circle.
 
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A

Apollos1

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To jmacvols -

You said - Therefore having hot dogs and cokes for the Lord's Supper is acceptable because nothing in the bible explicitly forbides these elements?

Do you pray to "Mother Mary" as the Catholics do, after all, nothing in the bible explicitly forbids it.

WHERE are the answers???
WHERE are the replies to your statements???

I guess TEAM IM is too busy smiling and "fiddling" around to give you a proper and staight answer.

They are sharp on asking questions, but
very flat on answering them!!

I appreciate your response! :thumbsup:
 
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ParsonJefferson

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----How one gets to church is a matter of expediency.
Are hot dogs and cokes a matter of expediency or not?

---Why don't you pray to "Mother Mary"? It's not specifically forbidden. You list your self as "non-denominatinal". Do you agree or disagree with this and other Catholic teachings as Holy Water, transubstantiation, purgatory etc.?

---So if you "specifically" tell the mechanic to change the oil and he put a new engine in, you would not pay him.

What's the difference when God specifically said to sing, and you add instruments to it? You do something extra you were not specifically told to do.

---You said the new employee was told specifically to be at work at 8am, that specific instructions.

God said to specifically sing, that is specific instruction also. The employer was silent about showing up at 4pm, but we all understand the new worker was to be there at 8am.


---the little boy was told to clean his room as we are told to sing. Going beyond this is doing more than what was told...it's adding to.


-------------------------------

Eph 5:19, the word psalm simply means a pious song, that may or may not refer to one in the OT book. The instrument in this context that is to be played is the human heart....it says making melody with your heart as opposed to saying make melody with a piano.

---------------------------------

Standing or sitting adds nothing to singing, in the end, all one doing is singing as God instructed regardless of his position. Humming and clapping is not singing, therfeore adds to what God has said.

This is utterly ridiculous.

You are throwing out absolutely absurd, non sequitur statements that cannot even begin to be compared.

As for Ephesians 5:19, you are absolutely wrong.
A hymn hymneo was/is an Old Testament psalm. The word psalm psalmos is a song sung, accompanied by a stringed instrument.

Like it or not, that IS the etymological meaning of both these words. Therefore, you are refusing to listen to contrary proof, and swimming upstream, when you INSIST that instruments CANNOT be used in worship.
 
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jmacvols

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I only mention smiling because, as a child, an elderly man told me how serious the bible was and we were supposed to worship with that kind of attitude. Smiling was a sign of disrespect. I saw a visiting preacher crack a little joke in a sermon once and not a single person so much as snickered. Except me (I got quite a few nasty stares).

Problem is the implicit isn't even REMOTELY justified in this case. As I mentioned before.

Big circle.

I guess I disrespect people I meet when I am smiling at them.

Smiling or frowning adds nothing to singing. Expediency is the key, one smiles or frowns or has a blank expression depending upon the circumstance.
 
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