Do believers make poor scientists?

[46AND2]

I would. I was curious after reading your exchanges with 46and2 and so I just looked up him here: Mark Armitage - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

According to that entry - which I suspect he wrote himself - his Masters Degree is from the Institute for Creation Research Graduate School at Azusa Pacific. That is not an accredited professional program. If you want to be persnickety about semantics, APU itself is accredited, but his degree is not from one of their accredited programs. It's kinda of like how I can technically say I'm Stanford educated because I've attended their EPGY programs for middle and high school kids and have the certificates to prove it, but it would be misleading. It's true that Liberty University's education program is accredited, but there are two things that are pertinent to his degrees (both of which were through online programs) in regards to employment in a teaching capacity. 1) The education program lacked accreditation at the time he obtained his degrees. 2) Neither of the degrees he has from Liberty are from regionally accredited programs.

Anyhooo, he got the part-time job at CSUN because he'd worked as a microscope technician for years, so I don't know to what extent his degrees from Liberty were relevant to that position.

That was the thing I was going to look up, but forgot. I suspected that he got his Liberty degrees prior to Liberty gaining their national accreditation (still no regional).

So thanks for that part.

 

[Doveaman]

People continue to talk to you all the time assuming that you are worth talking to.
That is proof of love for others.

People who hate each other also talk to each other. So?

You just used up seconds of my precious life that I'll never have back. That is love. Time given from my life just to you.

People give their time for selfish reasons. Maybe you just wanted to show-off how knowledgeable you are.

I do believe love exists, but can we prove it is genuine love and not just selfish motives?

 

[PsychoSarah]

People who hate each other also talk to each other. So?
People give their time for selfish reasons. Maybe you just wanted to show-off how knowledgeable you are.

I do believe love exists, but can we prove it is genuine love and not just selfish motives?

Weird that as a believer, you don't think love exists, even though the bible explicitly states it does and references it pretty often.

 

[createdtoworship]

I would. I was curious after reading your exchanges with 46and2 and so I just looked up him here: Mark Armitage - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

According to that entry - which I suspect he wrote himself - his Masters Degree is from the Institute for Creation Research Graduate School at Azusa Pacific. That is not an accredited professional program. If you want to be persnickety about semantics, APU itself is accredited, but his degree is not from one of their accredited programs. It's kinda of like how I can technically say I'm Stanford educated because I've attended their EPGY programs for middle and high school kids and have the certificates to prove it, but it would be misleading. It's true that Liberty University's education program is accredited, but there are two things that are pertinent to his degrees (both of which were through online programs) in regards to employment in a teaching capacity. 1) The education program lacked accreditation at the time he obtained his degrees. 2) Neither of the degrees he has from Liberty are from regionally accredited programs.

Anyhooo, he got the part-time job at CSUN because he'd worked as a microscope technician for years, so I don't know to what extent his degrees from Liberty were relevant to that position.

as far as I can tell, ICR does not have a school. (but I could be wrong that it's an apologetics only school), it is impossible to get a masters from them. However, I believe they do have internships, which is probably more accurate. But coming to think of it, they have a graduate program, I will check it out and get back to you.


updated:
looks like they are in a lawsuit for continued operation with the district. As they were shut down (not sure when)


But, It looks like the only reason why ICR science education graduate program is unaffiliated is because it is creationistic. All professors are from Harvard and other accredited schools. So there is no reason to think it to be lesser of a school. (hence the lawsuit). Also It begs the question as to the validity of something that may not in fact even be science, macroevolution.

secondly, most of his education was from a NCATE affiliated program at Liberty. But again not sure the quality of any accreditation as they presume the validity of macroevolution, but again that is another story. Not to deviate from what we are talking about.

 

[Loudmouth]

as far as I can tell, ICR does not have a school. (but I could be wrong that it's an apologetics only school), it is impossible to get a masters from them. However, I believe they do have internships, which is probably more accurate. But coming to think of it, they have a graduate program, I will check it out and get back to you.

The problem is that when the graduates got out of ICR and were faced with real world data, they suddenly found that they had been lied to by the ICR. Glenn Morton gives his testimony on the matter . . .

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.
http://www.oldearth.org/whyileft.htm
​

There are tons of different conservative religious schools where they could foster creationist science, but they never do. They never have labs busy with research being done on hypotheses from creation science. They think they already have the answers, and research can only cast doubt on those beliefs, so they don't do it.

 

[createdtoworship]

The problem is that when the graduates got out of ICR and were faced with real world data, they suddenly found that they had been lied to by the ICR. Glenn Morton gives his testimony on the matter . . .

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.
Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton
​

There are tons of different conservative religious schools where they could foster creationist science, but they never do. They never have labs busy with research being done on hypotheses from creation science. They think they already have the answers, and research can only cast doubt on those beliefs, so they don't do it.

ICR early graduates have outdated material none the less. That was before even ID was a theory. But on another note:
I have emailed two geologists that could not answer one little observation. Why Devils tower still exists. If it is millions of years old, why hasn't the freeze thaw cycles reduced it to a small knob by now?

 

[Loudmouth]

ICR early graduates have outdated material none the less.

It was wrong from the start.

That was before even ID was a theory.

ID isn't a theory. It doesn't produce testable hypotheses that are being tested in the scientific community.

I have emailed two geologists that could not answer one little observation. Why Devils tower still exists. If it is millions of years old, why hasn't the freeze thaw cycles reduced it to a small knob by now?

Where is your evidence that it has experienced freeze/thaw cycles for millions of years?

 

[Ada Lovelace]

as far as I can tell, ICR does not have a school. (but I could be wrong that it's an apologetics only school), it is impossible to get a masters from them. However, I believe they do have internships, which is probably more accurate. But coming to think of it, they have a graduate program, I will check it out and get back to you.

As I wrote in the post you quoted, according to the CreationWiki post I linked, Mark Armitage has a Masters Degree from ICR. I suspect he wrote his entry for himself since it includes his personal email address rather than a professional one. Also, he seems to be in the habit of writing posts online about himself and his work. He gave himself 5 stars and an effusively positive review on the Amazon page for the book he wrote. The Creation.com entry for Mark Armitage also states that he earned a Masters degree from ICR.

In your previous posts you seem to believe that his lawsuit against CSUN has merit and for him to be credible. If he doesn't have a Masters Degree then it further undermines his credibility and that of Creation.Com and CreationWiki for stating that he does. It's curious that you'd put forth such an effort to diminish some of your own posts.

** I corrected my previous post where I mistakingly wrote that the ICR is affiliated with Azusa Pacific. It isn't. But whether he went to Azusa Pacific or ICR is not significant to the matter because he was hired for his decades of work with microscopes rather than because of the strength of his academic education.**

updated:
looks like they are in a lawsuit for continued operation with the district. As they were shut down (not sure when)


But, It looks like the only reason why ICR science education graduate program is unaffiliated is because it is creationistic. All professors are from Harvard and other accredited schools. So there is no reason to think it to be lesser of a school. (hence the lawsuit). Also It begs the question as to the validity of something that may not in fact even be science, macroevolution.

CSUN checked his references and credentials prior to hiring him, so they were aware that he had taught at ICR and obtained some of his education there. That wasn't relevant to the decision to hire him because his job for them was not to teach, but not to work as a microscope technician in a lab. It's like how a Presbyterian church might hire an engineer from the Islam Institute of Technology to work on a construction project for their campus, but they wouldn't hire him to be a minister or let him teach Sunday school lessons.

secondly, most of his education was from a NCATE affiliated program at Liberty. But again not sure the quality of any accreditation as they presume the validity of macroevolution, but again that is another story. Not to deviate from what we are talking about.

Do you understand the difference between national and regional accreditations for college programs and how that difference impacts employment prospects and the overall reputation for the programs?

Once again, though, at the time Armitage attended Liberty they did not have any accreditation for their education programs, and his degrees from there were not pertinent to CSUN's decision to hire or fire him. He was not a researcher, a professor, or an instructor at CSU. He was a qualified electron microscope technician hired to work two days a week in a lab. He was fired due to budget cuts. The lawsuit brings attention to him and to his beliefs, and is seeking monetary compensation.

 

[createdtoworship]

As I wrote in the post you quoted, according to the CreationWiki post I linked, Mark Armitage has a Masters Degree from ICR. I suspect he wrote his entry for himself since it includes his personal email address rather than a professional one. Also, he seems to be in the habit of writing posts online about himself and his work. He gave himself 5 stars and an effusively positive review on the Amazon page for the book he wrote. The Creation.com entry for Mark Armitage also states that he earned a Masters degree from ICR.

In your previous posts you seem to believe that his lawsuit against CSUN has merit and for him to be credible. If he doesn't have a Masters Degree then it further undermines his credibility and that of Creation.Com and CreationWiki. It's curious that you'd put forth such an effort to diminish some of your own posts.

** I corrected my previous post where I mistakingly wrote that the ICR is affiliated with Azusa Pacific. It isn't. But whether he went to Azusa Pacific or ICR is not significant to the matter because he was hired for his decades of work with microscopes rather than because of the strength of his academic education.**



And this is relevant to the wrongful termination lawsuit because? CSUN checked his references and credentials prior to hiring him, so they were aware that he had taught at ICR and obtained some of his education there. That wasn't relevant to the decision to hire him because his job for them was not to teach, but not to work as a microscope technician in a lab. It's like how a Presbyterian church might hire an engineer from the Islam Institute of Technology to work on a construction project for their campus, but they wouldn't hire him to be a minister or let him teach Sunday school lessons.



Do you understand the difference between national and regional accreditations for college programs and how that difference impacts employment prospects and the overall reputation for the programs?

Once again, though, at the time Armitage attended Liberty they did not have any accreditation for their education programs, and his degrees from there were not pertinent to CSUN's decision to hire or fire him. He was not a researcher, a professor, or an instructor at CSU. He was a qualified electron microscope technician hired to work two days a week in a lab. He was fired due to budget cuts.

I am looking into his education further, and will get back to you. BUt in the meanwhile I found this:

Liberty University is ranked by U.S. News & World Report in several categories for 2013:

Regional Universities (South) - 89th
Best Colleges for Veterans - 23rd
Best Online Bachelor's Programs - 141st
Best Online Graduate Business Programs - 122nd
Best Online Graduate Education Programs - 97th
Best Online Graduate Nursing Programs - 75th[69]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University#cite_note-69


and this link regarding it's regional status:

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=13808

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I am looking into his education further, and will get back to you. BUt in the meanwhile I found this:

Liberty University is ranked by U.S. News & World Report in several categories for 2013:

Regional Universities (South) - 89th
Best Colleges for Veterans - 23rd
Best Online Bachelor's Programs - 141st
Best Online Graduate Business Programs - 122nd
Best Online Graduate Education Programs - 97th
Best Online Graduate Nursing Programs - 75th[69]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University#cite_note-69

I feel like you keep circumnavigating around the point just to be contrary. There is no need to get back to me regarding Armitage's education with Liberty, or for that matter with any other institution, when the relevant information pertaining to his lawsuit and his degrees have been discussed here. Who in this thread cares about Liberty beyond its relevance to Armitage? Once again, he was not hired or fired due to his degrees from Liberty or from ICR. He was a part-time lab technician who was hired due to his experience working with microscopes.

 

[createdtoworship]

I feel like you keep circumnavigating around the point just to be contrary. There is no need to get back to me regarding Armitage's education with Liberty, or for that matter with any other institution, when the relevant information pertaining to his lawsuit and his degrees have been discussed here. Who in this thread cares about Liberty beyond its relevance to Armitage? Once again, he was not hired or fired due to his degrees from Liberty or from ICR. He was a part-time lab technician who was hired due to his experience working with microscopes.

what does dinasuar fossils have to do with microscopes? in otherwords was he or wasnt he on the clock when he found evidence against evolution?

 

[Ada Lovelace]

what does dinasuar fossils have to do with microscopes? in otherwords was he or wasnt he on the clock when he found evidence against evolution?

Armitage discovered the pieces of horn, rib, and vertebrae, presumably from a Triceratops, that led to the dubious "discovery against evolution" on his own time and his own dime. In May of 2012 he went on a dinosaur dig in the Hell Creek Formation of Montana with two other young earth creationists who were not affiliated with CSUN. The dig was being done expressly to find dinosaur bones to break them apart to find soft tissue. CSUN did not finance the trip or endorse it in any way. He studied the specimens under the microscopes in the CSUN lab where he worked as a part-time employee, without their requesting him to do so. It's sort of like how if you use your computer to come here during the workday it doesn't mean your employer is supporting your posts in any way.

 

[createdtoworship]

I am sorry that this thread has turned into picking and poking at creationists certifications.

But Mark wasn't the only one persecuted wrongly on the job (some fired others demoted via religious persecution at the workplace)

we have
Richard Sternberg
Smithsonian: Religious Scientists Prohibited

and david coppedge
CSC - Background on David Coppedge and the Lawsuit Against NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Intelligent Design Proponent Fired from NASA Lab - YouTube

generalized christian persecution in the global workplace (pakistan), not necessarily related to evolution:

PAKISTAN Pakistan, father of three fired because a Christian - Asia News

christians fired because of anti-homosexual comment (some even on own time)

Claim: Warriors Coach Fired for Christian Views on Homosexuality

The Rural Blog: Iowa editor fired for anti-gay post on personal blog

 

[createdtoworship]

Armitage discovered the pieces of horn, rib, and vertebrae, presumably from a Triceratops, that led to the dubious "discovery against evolution" on his own time and his own dime. In May of 2012 he went on a dinosaur dig in the Hell Creek Formation of Montana with two other young earth creationists who were not affiliated with CSUN. The dig was being done expressly to find dinosaur bones to break them apart to find soft tissue. CSUN did not finance the trip or endorse it in any way. He studied the specimens under the microscopes in the CSUN lab where he worked as a part-time employee, without their requesting him to do so. It's sort of like how if you use your computer to come here during the workday it doesn't mean your employer is supporting your posts in any way.

then why fire him days after he got it peer reviewed? meanwhile boss stating " this department doesn'nt have to put up with your religion". or something to that effect.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

then why fire him days after he got it peer reviewed? meanwhile boss stating " this department doesn'nt have to put up with your religion". or something to that effect.

It might be a coincidence. And it might be that he was being obnoxious in a religious way, such things do happen. But I don't have any information to that effect, and we may never learn the other side's reasons for letting him go, which may very well include more than just the need to downsize. When employers have to downsize, they often try to pick who to downsize, if they can.

 

[createdtoworship]

Armitage discovered the pieces of horn, rib, and vertebrae, presumably from a Triceratops, that led to the dubious "discovery against evolution" on his own time and his own dime. In May of 2012 he went on a dinosaur dig in the Hell Creek Formation of Montana with two other young earth creationists who were not affiliated with CSUN. The dig was being done expressly to find dinosaur bones to break them apart to find soft tissue. CSUN did not finance the trip or endorse it in any way. He studied the specimens under the microscopes in the CSUN lab where he worked as a part-time employee, without their requesting him to do so. It's sort of like how if you use your computer to come here during the workday it doesn't mean your employer is supporting your posts in any way.

ok, sounds good. I don't question any of that at this time, although I don't know your sources for this.

he was not hired or fired due to his degrees from Liberty or from ICR

now that I partially agree with. Other posters on this thread are saying the exact opposite, that they were "suprised" he was hired due to his lack of regional accreditation. (which I am still checking on BTW)

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I am sorry that this thread has turned into picking and poking at creationists certifications.

But Mark wasn't the only one persecuted wrongly on the job (some fired others demoted via religious persecution at the workplace)

Mark Armitage has claimed to have been persecuted on the job in his wrongful termination lawsuit against CSUN. Students, professors, and others with personal knowledge about his employment have disputed this claim. If the lawsuit moves forward hopefully the hype will be filtered out and the actual truth will emerge. His veracity is questionable since he has made other misleading claims numerous times, such as identifying himself as a biologist for CSUN when he spoke at YEC events and on podcasts criticizing the scientific timescales. In truth he was never hired to be a biologist for CSUN, or as an instructor in any capacity. He was merely a part-time lab technician who was hired on a temporary basis. I think his lawsuit is meritless, but it provides a stage for him to play out a martyr role to an audience of Young Earth Creationists.

You picked and poked at his credentials by stating that it was impossible for him to have a Masters degree from ICR when two other outside websites had posted that he had, and posted information about Liberty that wasn't relevant to his degrees with them. If you're sorry then I assume you have no intentions to engage in any further discussion about his educational qualifications for the position. Good.

As for the other scientists who have claimed they were persecuted by their employers for their religions views, I have no idea if that is merely their version of events or the actual truth. People have made all sorts of claims in wrongful termination suits, and some have merit and some do not. Dr. Francis Collins has held several extremely important, high-ranking positions as a scientist, and has also written numerous books about his beliefs in theistic evolution. He has stated that in professional capacities, he focuses on his work and does not bring in his religious beliefs. In other words, he acts like a professional. Maybe that's the key difference between him and the scientists you've listed as being persecuted for their religious beliefs.

then why fire him days after he got it peer reviewed? meanwhile boss stating " this department doesn'nt have to put up with your religion". or something to that effect.

He has claimed that a superior stormed in and shouted at him that the department would not tolerate his religion. Have any witnesses corroborated that claim? Maybe it's true, maybe it's fabricated, maybe it's partly true but embellished for dramatic effect. What I've heard is that after Armitage returned from a YEC event (the one where he misrepresented himself as a biologist for CSUN) in June of 2012 he was especially chatty. In his lawsuit he claims that he would "engage in socratic dialogue" about the age of the horn he discovered and young earth creationism with students. This was outside the parameters of his job duties which were to simply demonstrate to them how to properly use the microscopes. He was not a professor. Students complained to the department head that they felt like Armitage was proselytizing to them. Perhaps a superior then reprimanded Armitage, but once again, we just have Armitage's version of what was actually said. Regardless, the issue wasn't Armitage's beliefs but his actions. It was like with the analogy I used before about how a Presbyterian church might hire a qualified engineer from the Islamic Institute of Technology to work on a campus expansion project, but they probably wouldn't hire him in a pastoral or teaching capacity. If that engineer then began proselytizing on the church grounds to young church goers, don't you think the church would be justified in feeling like he overstepped his bounds? The same is true with Armitage.

The university hired Armitage on a temporary part-time basis, so they were legally permitted to terminate him whenever they wished. As I wrote previously, the entire Cal State university system has been in a severe budget crisis for years. Their assertion that they were cutting out that position due to budgetary issue is absolutely believable. Sure, maybe there were other factors involved with the timing of ending his position, but it still wouldn't equate to a wrongful termination or religious persecution in an at-will job. He had absolutely no job security like a tenured professor would. Considering that Armitage had misrepresented himself as a biologist for CSUN at YEC events and on podcasts, it's possible he did so on the peer review paper as well. I haven't seen the paper, so I don't know. If so, the issue would be about him misappropriating the university's name to make it seem like they were in essence supporting something that he actually had self-funded and self-directed. The only connection CSUN had to the "discovery" was that their part-time employee used their microscopes for his personal work. Once again though, all that is not at the root of his termination. A temporary position is by nature.............temporary.

 

[46AND2]

, that they were "suprised" he was hired due to his lack of regional accreditation. (which I am still checking on BTW)

FWIW, I was surprised that he was employed as a scientist, as claimed by the article, at a state college without an [regionally] accredited degree.

Further investigation into the topic has shown that he WASN'T a scientist, but a microscope lab tech. Getting that job without an accredited degree is significantly less surprising.

 

[46AND2]

gradyll,

One other thing I'd like to point out...so far, the lawsuit has only been filed, not granted. People file unfounded lawsuits all the time. This does not mean that any actual wrongdoing had occurred. We have very little information to go on so far; essentially just his side of the story. The college has not formally commented on the lawsuit.

To claim that this is evidence of YEC persecution in the workplace is premature to say the least.

 

[Loudmouth]

I am sorry that this thread has turned into picking and poking at creationists certifications.

I'm sorry that creationists think that fluffed up credentials somehow lend credence to creationist nonsense.

But Mark wasn't the only one persecuted wrongly on the job (some fired others demoted via religious persecution at the workplace)

we have
Richard Sternberg
Smithsonian: Religious Scientists Prohibited

and david coppedge
CSC - Background on David Coppedge and the Lawsuit Against NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory

And the usual lies from creationists. This is like the Yalow incident all over again.

Why don't we start with Sternberg. I suggest that you migrate off of the lying creationist sites, and find out what really happened. Report back to us.

What you will find is that the worst thing that happened to Sternberg as a result of his actions is that some people said mean things about him behind his back in emails. That's it. He didn't lose his job or position because of his religious beliefs, even though he really did abuse his editor position at the journal.

I find it funny that the ICR tries to pretend that Sternberg is not a creationist. Sternberg attended "for ID eyes only" conferences where you had to swear an oath that you were a creationist in order to attend. This is where he met Stephen Meyer, and this is where they hatched the plan to use Sternberg's position to sneak pseudoscience into the journal. Sternberg turned in his resignation to the journal which became effective in 6 months. That is when he snuck the paper in. He went out of his way to not let the other editors see the paper, and Sternberg has still not revealed who reviewed the paper.

Quite frankly, there should have been repercussions for what Sternberg did, but there weren't.

Sternberg's fake martyrdom is yet another example of creationists trying to drag our focus away from the obvious. They have no science.