Do atheists lean more to the left of politics

[jgarden]

Pharisees and Sadducees thought Jesus was radical left who came to destroy Judaism .

The "Babylonian Exile" in Jewish history was viewed as God's punishment for their failure to remain faithful!

Geopolitically, Israel was always been a small, strategically located nation - under the continuous threat of foreign occupation from one major power after another that would emerged in the Mediterranean/Near and Middle East!

The Jewish religious leaders saw themselves as responsible for ensuring that their people retain their distinct cultural heritage which often resulted in religious sects like the Pharisees and Sadducees where the spirit of obeying God's laws was superceded by following the "letter of the law!"

Jewish religious leaders acting as intermediaries between their people and the hated foreign powers were highly suspicious of the emergence of charismatic individuals who would not only challenge their positions in the eyes of the people, but trigger a violent response from the occupying military!

In 79 AD, their worst fears became a reality with the revolt, resulting in the Roman reprisals including the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the forced exile of Jews from their homeland!

 

[jgarden]

Wow, that's a lot. I'll just pick this one out for now:


Note that in the case of "Believers Sharing Their Possessions", everyone involved is agreeing to share their possessions. It's not a case of some of the people forcibly taking other people's possessions in order to do with them as they see fit, with the other people disagreeing. That's more like stealing.

Then there's 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat." There is some value in being industrious. That's not to say we shouldn't help the poor, but there's a problem with creating a permanent welfare class.

By the way, I am not saying that Conservative Christians represent a perfect Christ-like model to run the world with. Arguably conservatives and liberals are both needed to balance each other. But right now IMO the Right are far less dangerous than the Left, if only because the Left has too much power right now. Not because they control the executive and legislative branches, but because they also control the mainstream media, entertainment, social media, sports, technology, and corporate America. We are this close to living under a Totalitarian socialist oligarchy with a ruling elite, complete with a powerful propaganda machine eager to do their bidding.

1) Starting with Emperor Constantine, once religious and secular leaders, in the name of Christianity, were given access to political power, they immediately adopted the same "bad habits" of their predecessors of attempted to impose their own moral code - should Roe v Wade be reversed, try telling conservative Christians that the rest of the nation won't be forced to accept their agenda!

2) Throughout human history, the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of an "entitled" few has been widely accepted as all part of life's "natural order" - the redistribution of wealth, as described in "The Believers Share Their Possessions," however, is dismissed as revolutionary, impractical and "stealing!"

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat."
Given that much of the world's wealth is inherited, apparently we are not concerned about establishing a "welfare class," as long as its composed of the rich and powerful living in luxury - but "Heaven forbid" that society would consider "coddling" the poor!

4) "The mainstream media, entertainment, social media, sports, technology, and corporate America" are all good "capitalists" dedicated to turning a profit - they have learned, however, that long-term survival also requires that they adapt to a rapidly changing society, as opposed to steadfastly adhering to some inflexible conservative ideology that idealizes the past!

5) Given that most of Christ's adult life, as portrayed in the New Testament, was dedicated to ministering to the sick and poor - I don't recall any verses in the Bible admonishing Christians concerning the evils of "coddling" society's "have-nots," nor the sins of creating "a permanent welfare class!"

 

[Albion]

should Roe v Wade be reversed, try telling conservative Christians that their position on abortion shouldn't be imposed on the rest of the nation!

Should there be NO standards of decency that a government would uphold in civilized society, then?? Is Anarchism or something like it the right way to go?

2) Throughout human history, mankind has accepted that the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few is the natural order - apparently its the redistribution of wealth, as described in "The Believers Share Their Possessions" that is considered revolutionary and impractical!

It's theft. So now refer back to my first question above.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Should there be NO standards of decency that a government would uphold in civilized society, then?? Is Anarchism or something like it the right way to go?


It's theft. So now refer back to my first question above.

Off course there should be standard for government, but that standard shouldn’t be based on any religious book.

Unfortunately American evangelicals wants to implement Biblical teaching on Government, and they only want Biblical teaching and no other religious book.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

1) Starting with Emperor Constantine, once religious and secular leaders, in the name of Christianity, were given access to political power, they immediately adopted the same "bad habits" of their predecessors of attempted to impose their own moral code - should Roe v Wade be reversed, try telling conservative Christians that the rest of the nation won't be forced to accept their agenda!

2) Throughout human history, the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of an "entitled" few has been widely accepted as all part of life's "natural order" - the redistribution of wealth, as described in "The Believers Share Their Possessions," however, is dismissed as revolutionary, impractical and "stealing!"

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat."
Given that much of the world's wealth is inherited, apparently we are not concerned about establishing a "welfare class," as long as its composed of the rich and powerful living in luxury - but "Heaven forbid" that society would consider "coddling" the poor!

4) "The mainstream media, entertainment, social media, sports, technology, and corporate America" are all good "capitalists" dedicated to turning a profit - they have learned, however, that long-term survival also requires that they adapt to a rapidly changing society, as opposed to steadfastly adhering to some inflexible conservative ideology that idealizes the past!

5) Given that most of Christ's adult life, as portrayed in the New Testament, was dedicated to ministering to the sick and poor - I don't recall any verses in the Bible admonishing Christians concerning the evils of "coddling" society's "have-nots," nor the sins of creating "a permanent welfare class!"

I am a conservatives and believe in Capitalism ( my political view) . But I never get how some Christians conclude Capitalism is Biblical.

 

[Albion]

Off course there should be standard for government, but that standard shouldn’t be based on any religious book.

Can we say that a prohibition against one person murdering another is only a matter of following some "religious book?"

Personally, I'd say "no."

 

[jgarden]

Should there be NO standards of decency that a government would uphold in civilized society, then?? Is Anarchism or something like it the right way to go?

The Founding Fathers were well aware of that Europans had suffered from centuries of constant religious wars between so-called "Christians" attempting to impose their own particular "standard of decency" on the other - the net result was an exodus of immigrants to the New World in search of a more "civilized society!"

It's theft. So now refer back to my first question above.

There was no mention of "THEFT" when Republicans passed their $1+ trillion "tax-cut" with most of the benefits going straight to their political donors - who were already wealthy!

Like every other Republican "tax-cut" for the wealthy, it was financed with borrowed money added to the national debt - a financial liability that the rest of the nation's taxpayers will be obligated to pay, irrespective of any benefit they may/may not have received from the tax-cut!

 

[jgarden]

Can we say that a prohibition against one person murdering another is only a matter of following some "religious book?"

Personally, I'd say "no."

Early Christians didn't make any distinctions concerning "state sponsored murder" during war - they took the position that the 10 Commandments was to be taken literally, whereby the moral standards that applied to nations, should not be lower than those which apply to individuals.

Early Christians could find no Biblical verses or justifications that murder, just because it was being conducted on behalf of the nation, would escape God's judgement!

 

[Albion]

The Founding Fathers were well aware of that Europans had suffered from centuries of constant religious wars between so-called "Christians" attempting to impose their own particular "standard of decency" on the other - the net result was an exodus of immigrants to the New World in search of a more "civilized society!"



There was no mention of "THEFT" when Republicans passed their $1+ trillion "tax-cut" where most of the benefits going straight to their political donors - who were already wealthy!

Like every other Republican "tax-cut" for the wealthy, it was financed with borrowed money added to the national debt - a financial liability that the rest of the nation's taxpayers will be obligated to pay, irrespective of any benefit they may/may not have received from the tax-cut!

Most of that strikes me as rather roundabout. The point was that not every governmental policy that has social implications which some people don't like is the result of Christians imposing their doctrines on the rest of the country. Civilized people of all stripes know that society cannot allow citizens to simply murder each other for convenience's sake, or steal other people's property, etc.

 

[Albion]

Early Christians didn't make any distinctions concerning "state sponsored murder" during war - they took the position that the 10 Commandments was to be taken literally, whereby the moral standards that applied to nations, should not be lower than those which apply to individuals.

You are right that early Christians were pacifists. However, the issue itself isn't as simple as "no killing under any circumstances."

 

[jgarden]

Most of that strikes me as rather roundabout. The point was that not every governmental policy that has social implications which some people don't like is the result of Christians imposing their doctrines on the rest of the country. Civilized people of all stripes know that society cannot allow citizens to simply murder each other for convenience's sake, or steal other people's property, etc.

"Civilized society" not only gives their citizens permission to "murder" their opponents during times of war, it finances the weapons that it puts in their hands and provides the the training to maximize their use - rewarding their "accomplishments" with public recognition and medals!

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Most of that strikes me as rather roundabout. The point was that not every governmental policy that has social implications which some people don't like is the result of Christians imposing their doctrines on the rest of the country. Civilized people of all stripes know that society cannot allow citizens to simply murder each other for convenience's sake, or steal other people's property, etc.

I agree with you .. not every Gov law is tied to Bible.. but lets be honest .. evangelical Christians want to implement some law like ban abortion, ban gay marriage because of Biblical principal. I am a born again Christian and I believe abortion is wrong, gay marriage is wrong, but I don’t want Bible influence any thing in Gov just like I don’t want Gov influence how I worship in my church!

 

[Albion]

I agree with you .. not every Gov law is tied to Bible.. but lets be honest .. evangelical Christians want to implement some law like ban abortion, ban gay marriage because of Biblical principal.

I would maintain that in each of those cases, the basis for their hopes of having the laws changed is not just "what the Bible says."

We do not, for instance, find those people demanding that there not be any statues of famous people "because those are graven images" or "that's idolatry," etc.

I believe abortion is wrong, gay marriage is wrong, but I don’t want Bible influence any thing in Gov just like I don’t want Gov influence how I worship in my church!

Maybe the way to look at it is to ask if some policy is off-limits to the lawmakers IF the Bible happens to say something about it. That would mean that the Bible, for having taken some stand, would render the same policy off-limits for the lawmakers, even if the law were thought right and good, the Bible aside.

Like giving to the poor, for example. The Bible encourages it, so does that mean the Congress or State Legislature is forbidden to operate any disaster relief programs since, after all, the Bible seems to agrees with helping those people who are in need?

 

[Abide with me.]

I believe the left is generally atheistic, as it has it's roots in communism which is historically anti religious, the left also has it's roots in rebellion from authority and a belief in self power which has been proved to have succeeded, if it is intoxicating to believe you can overthrow the status quo, then why stop at toppling government? Monarchy? Question everything, throw the baby out with the bathwater, even religion and God.

The loudest voices amongst the left in the uk are the educated and the youth, ( distinctly different from the traditional left who are no longer represented by left wing gov ) the former loudsters have one major thing in common, an unshakable belief 'self' to exclusion of God, for two reasons in my opinion, education and the absence of war for the past 76 years.
Higher education seems to have left no room for mystery or question beyond what is already known, and 76 years of peace has created generations of people who have not had every bit of personal power stripped away from them to the point where they are crying out for God, there is no humility.

I think the right tend to be more conservative in their views anyway, including religion, the rich and middle class because the status quo has suited them, and the poor because they need something else to believe in other than themselves or government, ( although I would say it was the lottery these days rather than God but maybe the paradigm is the same ) either way, higher education and urbanization seems to be the factor with the predominant left in the UK, I grew up in the 60's and 70's and never went to a student party which didn't have a poster of Carl Marx or Che Guevara on their walls, and communism was a naive ideal, those proffessional students are now those in government and the parents or grandparents of a society built on idolatry of people, and a total belief in 'self' at the expense of God and / or traditional values, however imperfect they were, I think the left, to generlise, have literally thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[jgarden]

You are right that early Christians were pacifists. However, the issue itself isn't as simple as "no killing under any circumstances."

What are those circumstances - despite centuries of persecution by Roman emperors, there don't appear to be documented instances whereby early Christians chose to rake up arms to defend themselves!

Instead of purging Christians from the Roman Empire, their willingness to die for their faith resulted in an unprecedented number of conversions, especially among Gentiles - this dedication to their faith may have been one of the factors that attracted the interest of Emperor Constantine!

Christianity's new found favor and respectability, starting with Constantine, actually alarmed many Believers who felt their fundamental beliefs were compromised as the price being paid to gain this new, wider acceptance (ie military service).

This net result was the emergence of new religious Christian orders that embraced withdrawal from what they considered to be these corrupting influences on the Church from the secular world - the Monastic movement offered Believers a simpler life, devoid of materialistic temptations!

 

[jgarden]

I am a conservatives and believe in Capitalism ( my political view) . But I never get how some Christians conclude Capitalism is Biblical.

This has reached its climax with the "unholy alliance" that currently exists between America's Evangelicals and Donald J Trump - whose words and deeds represent the very antithesis of everything Christians claim to believe!

Placed in an historical context, the current Evangelical association with Trump whereby once again access to political power requires that "the ends justify the means" goes to the very heart of what alarmed many of the early Christians - who felt their fundamental beliefs had been compromised!

This may not result in the Christianity's next Monastic Movement, but it could serve as an historical watershed for major changes within the Church in general, and Evangelicals in particular, in the immediate and forseeable future!

 

[Albion]

What are those circumstances....

Well, the state executing murderers, for example. Or the nation, the people, defending themselves against invading armies. Also, there is the self-defense of an individual against an attacker. It is generally agreed that this is a person's right. So this is not a "one size fits all" kind of issue.

 

[Yekcidmij]

In debating especially on ethics and morality I have noticed that those that support rights based politics, identity politics, political correctness, ideas like gender ideology, claimate change, abortion are mostly atheists. Is there any connection here. Just wondering.

Some don't. Ayn Rand was a staunch atheist, yet not a leftist.

 

[Yekcidmij]

4) Presumably "The Believers Share Their Possessions" while under the influence of the Holy Spirit serves a purpose - "The Greatest Commandment" is based on love of God and our "neighbors" while "The Parable of the Good Samaritan" is quite explicit that everyone should be considered our neighbor!

Was the Roman state forcing Christians into doing this or was it voluntary? I'm curious how one gets from the voluntary nature implied by Acts 2 to state coercion, which the disciples seem to have pretty much unanimously opposed.

5) Mankind lived in tribal societies for most of human existence, whereby the emphasis was placed on communal living and the collective - not the acquisition of private possessions and individual ambition!

So, should society be organized into small, decentralized tribes of communal living?

 

[Albion]

Some don't. Ayn Rand was a staunch atheist, yet not a leftist.

Probably not the best example that could have been used.