do any of you believe tongues are necessary

[ARBITER01]

You may need to tell that to Him then:



Not only that, but there are times where Paul was filled with the Spirit and began to preach, which, if this happened at salvation, becomes a redundant saying. The verse above is so clear, but there is more:

The Believers Pray

23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

“‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

Who was all filled with the Holy Spirit? The believers, again. So yes, they did receive the Holy Spirit when they were saved, but they did not recieve the baptism of power until after...and it seems they received it again.

There is not an additional "immersion" in The Holy Spirit after the initial born again immersion. Being additionally filled with The Holy Spirit who is already in you at that point, is not somehow a dipping back into The Holy Spirit again.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'd assume we're all concerned with being scripturally correct in the absence of anything blatantly to the contrary.

Would you like to expound on the Acts 8 passage? I'd like to hear how you harmonize that with your position.

Your choice of Acts 8 does not address an additional immersion in The Holy Spirit.

 

[JEBrady]

Your choice of Acts 8 does not address an additional immersion in The Holy Spirit.

Just wanted to see if you would address it.

No worries, and never mind.

 

[ARBITER01]

Just wanted to see if you would address it.

No worries, and never mind.

hey Brady, don't think I won't discuss a section you present that addresses this secondary immersion, I will, but that one does not. There is nothing in that section identifying a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" apart from our salvation.

 

[Lively Stone]

We receive The Holy Spirit at our rebirth,..

Yes we do, but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

We don't become born again and receive The Holy Spirit sometime later, He is given us right at our birth.

You mistakenly equate salvation with the anointing, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lively Stone]

The Samaritans received Christ and were baptized (in water) when Philip came and preached to them the gospel and worked many works of power among them.

When the church at Jerusalem heard the report, they sent Peter and John to lay hands on them so they could receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. It was a separate event.

When I was born again, I received the indwelling Spirit, it was glorious and I knew I had been born again in my spirit. Years later, I had hands laid on me and received the baptism in the Spirit, and spoke with other tongues. I also began to pray in the spirit during devotions, and prophesied during prayer, and also worked gifts of healings. I didn't ever need to have hands laid on me for those things again, because I had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Of the thousands and thousands that received Christ at hearing the preaching of Billy Graham, how many ever spoke in tongues when they received?

Amen. You have demonstrated what millions of believers experience according to the word. Thank you.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes we do, but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.



You mistakenly equate salvation with the anointing, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

There's no scripture example of that.

 

[Alive_Again]

Arbiter01
hey Brady, don't think I won't discuss a section you present that addresses this secondary immersion, I will, but that one does not. There is nothing in that section identifying a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" apart from our salvation.

I say this humbly, but you remind me of so many others who have said similar things and then when they received, they preach it!

Remember Jesus "breathed" on them to receive the Holy Spirit. They were also told to wait in Jerusalem for the "power". We know that according to John the Baptist that Jesus is a baptizer of the Holy Ghost and fire. The Holy Ghost baptism gives the believe anointing power to witness and break the yokes of oppression. It's how we destroy the works of the devil. Jesus was anointed of the Holy Ghost and was sent to destroy the works of the devil. He received His Holy Ghost baptism during His water baptism. I have heard of some receiving this in this manner, but usually this is not the case. Many believe because they have been "baptized into Christ" during their water baptism and rebirth that they have been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

The "born again" camp or Passover Feast Christians believe they received everything in this experience. The Holy Ghost baptism Christians (Pentecost Feast) receive anointing power and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, just like the Book of Acts. Unfortunately, many Passover Feast Christians speak in judgment against Pentecost Feast Christians and shy away from the experience because the enemy points out what are considered to be "fringe behaviors" they don't understand. Speaking in tongues is probably the first. Getting slain in the Spirit the second. Also, being "drunk" in the Spirit. Then you have groups that test the Lord handling serpents and espousing strange doctrine.

The purity of the experience is just as Jesus said. Receive the power to witness and destroy the works of the devil. A sign following the believer is that they WILL speak with new tongues. It's as Peter said of the prophet Joel. God pours out His Spirit on ALL flesh. My friend, don't settle for anything less!

 

[ARBITER01]

I say this humbly, but you remind me of so many others who have said similar things and then when they received, they preach it!

Remember Jesus "breathed" on them to receive the Holy Spirit. They were also told to wait in Jerusalem for the "power". We know that according to John the Baptist that Jesus is a baptizer of the Holy Ghost and fire. The Holy Ghost baptism gives the believe anointing power to witness and break the yokes of oppression. It's how we destroy the works of the devil. Jesus was anointed of the Holy Ghost and was sent to destroy the works of the devil. He received His Holy Ghost baptism during His water baptism. I have heard of some receiving this in this manner, but usually this is not the case. Many believe because they have been "baptized into Christ" during their water baptism and rebirth that they have been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

The "born again" camp or Passover Feast Christians believe they received everything in this experience. The Holy Ghost baptism Christians (Pentecost Feast) receive anointing power and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, just like the Book of Acts. Unfortunately, many Passover Feast Christians speak in judgment against Pentecost Feast Christians and shy away from the experience because the enemy points out what are considered to be "fringe behaviors" they don't understand. Speaking in tongues is probably the first. Getting slain in the Spirit the second. Also, being "drunk" in the Spirit. Then you have groups that test the Lord handling serpents and espousing strange doctrine.

The purity of the experience is just as Jesus said. Receive the power to witness and destroy the works of the devil. A sign following the believer is that they WILL speak with new tongues. It's as Peter said of the prophet Joel. God pours out His Spirit on ALL flesh. My friend, don't settle for anything less!

Outer Court/born again -- Holy Place/Spirit filled -- Holy of Holies/Tabernacles

There's also another feast for the mature Christian - Tabernacles!

The order is set in scripture,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Until Jesus received authority from The Father to give The Holy Spirit out, did the church start, not before that. This is clear as day in this passage.

The church did not start over in John 20:22 because of this fact. Peter is not a liar here.

 

[Alive_Again]

The order is set in scripture,..
Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
Until Jesus received authority from The Father to give The Holy Spirit out, did the church start, not before that. This is clear as day in this passage.

The church did not start over in John 20:22 because of this fact. Peter is not a liar here.

That is a matter of opinion, seeing that it is not "announced" that the church begins anywhere. We know that the flock of Jesus began with the apostles. They were sanctified by the Word as mentioned in Jesus' prayer in John.

Clearly Jesus gave us the "He breathed on them..." passage and referred to the Holy Spirit. This was not the mighty rushing wind at Pentecost.

We do know that Jesus baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. The Church of Acts exhibited the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You do not see this in the Passover Feast/born again Christians who have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If you want to know if you've received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Do you speak with new tongues? Do you prophesy? Do you move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If you say no to these, you can! Your witnessing will have an anointing and you will have more understanding.

It's not really an "argument" with those who know of the experience because it is so radical. You must be poor in spirit and humble in your approach. Just meditate on the promise and ask God to give you light. If you don't have an immediate understanding, don't stop there. Keep seeking till you find.

 

[Svt4Him]

There is not an additional "immersion" in The Holy Spirit after the initial born again immersion. Being additionally filled with The Holy Spirit who is already in you at that point, is not somehow a dipping back into The Holy Spirit again.

So if my cup is immersed in water (baptized) how can I then fill it again? This to me is an exercise in semantic gymnastics. But even so, in order to be filled with something, you first have to be emptied of it, at least in part.

 

[ARBITER01]

That is a matter of opinion, seeing that it is not "announced" that the church begins anywhere. We know that the flock of Jesus began with the apostles. They were sanctified by the Word as mentioned in Jesus' prayer in John.

Clearly Jesus gave us the "He breathed on them..." passage and referred to the Holy Spirit. This was not the mighty rushing wind at Pentecost.

We do know that Jesus baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. The Church of Acts exhibited the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You do not see this in the Passover Feast/born again Christians who have not experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If you want to know if you've received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Do you speak with new tongues? Do you prophesy? Do you move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If you say no to these, you can! Your witnessing will have an anointing and you will have more understanding.

It's not really an "argument" with those who know of the experience because it is so radical. You must be poor in spirit and humble in your approach. Just meditate on the promise and ask God to give you light. If you don't have an immediate understanding, don't stop there. Keep seeking till you find.

Again, you ignore the passage like most,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

The Holy Spirit was not passed out till acts 2 because of this fact. Jesus was not our high priest until he was seated at the right hand of The Father, then He could give out good gifts.

Most people just don't pay enough attention to scripture and they assume too much.

EDIT: By the way, GOD has witnessed all 9 of the gifts operating through me at various points over the years. While some operate more than others, they all have and still do, since it seems you didn't know.

 

[BoyRescue]

Arbiter01,

This why I keep asking you, can you clarify your position for me and everyone to better understand your stance?

If the Holy Spirit could not be received in John 20:22 because of Acts 2:33, then why did Jesus breathe on the disciples and tell them to receive the Holy Spirit? This is what confuses me about your stance. Much clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[ARBITER01]

Arbiter01,

This why I keep asking you, can you clarify your position for me and everyone to better understand your stance?

If the Holy Spirit could not be received in John 20:22 because of Acts 2:33, then why did Jesus breathe on the disciples and tell them to receive the Holy Spirit? This is what confuses me about your stance. Much clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

I'm sorry, I already stated that I would not concern myself with any of your questions anymore since you seem to figure things out by yourself quite well. I think you are more than able to read what I'm typing.

 

[BoyRescue]

I'm sorry, I already stated that I would not concern myself with any of your questions anymore since you seem to figure things out by yourself quite well. I think you are more than able to read what I'm typing.

Well, it would have been great to hear you stance on it, but since your not going to provide any insight my guess is that it's unbiblical. Thanks anyways.

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, it would have been great to hear you stance on it, but since your not going to provide any insight my guess is that it's unbiblical. Thanks anyways.

Lol, yea ok.

 

[TasManOfGod]

May I clarify
Receiving the Holy Spirit is like welcoming the Holy Spirit as He who introduces you to your saviour Jesus Christ.
It then becomes the function of Jesus in you to equip you for ministry by baptising you in the Holy Spirit if your spirit is open to that .
The two events are separate and only the latter brings you to a point of speaking in tongues.
Necessary -No -
Desirable -yes- And dont let anybody deceive you into thinking that Jesus will withhold anything -particularly anything that will build you up and enable you to do what He did

 

[Lively Stone]

May I clarify
Receiving the Holy Spirit is like welcoming the Holy Spirit as He who introduces you to your saviour Jesus Christ.
It then becomes the function of Jesus in you to equip you for ministry by baptising you in the Holy Spirit if your spirit is open to that .
The two events are separate and only the latter brings you to a point of speaking in tongues.
Necessary -No -
Desirable -yes- And dont let anybody deceive you into thinking that Jesus will withhold anything -particularly anything that will build you up and enable you to do what He did

 

[Alive_Again]

The Holy Spirit was not passed out till acts 2 because of this fact. Jesus was not our high priest until he was seated at the right hand of The Father, then He could give out good gifts.

Most people just don't pay enough attention to scripture and they assume too much.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20:21-23


This passage occurred after the resurrection and before Acts 2. Take a good look. If you can explain this in a way that the Holy Spirit will bear witness to, I'd love to increase my understanding. As it is, I'm inclined to believe it as I read it.

 

[ARBITER01]

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20:21-23


This passage occurred after the resurrection and before Acts 2. Take a good look. If you can explain this in a way that the Holy Spirit will bear witness to, I'd love to increase my understanding. As it is, I'm inclined to believe it as I read it.

I've already stated what needed to be said on the subject, and I have no ambition to continue much more on a fundamental topic.