Do all liberals support abortion and LGBTQ+?

Do you believe in abortion and LGBTQ?

  • I support abortion

    Votes: 3 13.0%
  • I do not support abortion, but I support women’s rights to choose an abortion

    Votes: 7 30.4%
  • I do not support abortion at all

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • I support LGBTQ

    Votes: 16 69.6%
  • I do not support LGBTQ

    Votes: 6 26.1%

  • Total voters
    23

GodLovesCats

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I’m a conservative, but I understand the rules of this forum and I’ll be respectful of liberal Christians in this thread.

Do all liberals, specifically liberal Christians, support abortion and LGBTQ+?

Just wondering how much these issues are tied to politics.

You are oversimplifying the abortion question. Even among liberals, support varies. My personal opinions:

1. Never punish the mom for what the dad did. If someone is ever impregnated by rape she must be allowed to get an abortion . . . and the rapist better be forced to pay for it because her pregnancy was all his fault. Also, police should be allowed to bring one "morning after pill" when they respond to rape cases because the victim might otherwise not be able to get it in less than 24 hours.

2. Embryos have no ability to think or perceive anything. During the first trimester, only one human being suffers mentally and physically, all the way through her abortion if she gets one. I do not support outright bans on abortions during the second trimester, when life-threatening pregnancy complications and severe fetal deformities can be diagnosed, but would like restrictions such as it can't be gender preference. If the mom is still pregnant when the fetus can feel pain, she wanted a baby.
 
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SkyWriting

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You are oversimplifying the abortion question. Even among liberals, support varies. My personal opinions:

1. Never punish the mom for what the dad did. If someone is ever impregnated by rape she must be allowed to get an abortion . . . and the rapist better be forced to pay for it because her pregnancy was all his fault. Also, police should be allowed to bring one "morning after pill" when they respond to rape cases because the victim might otherwise not be able to get it in less than 24 hours.

2. Embryos have no ability to think or perceive anything. During the first trimester, only one human being suffers mentally and physically, all the way through her abortion if she gets one. I do not support outright bans on abortions during the second trimester, when life-threatening pregnancy complications and severe fetal deformities can be diagnosed, but would like restrictions such as it can't be gender preference. If the mom is still pregnant when the fetus can feel pain, she wanted a baby.
Even among pro-choice people, the support varies. As you say, men can be aggressive and dominating. So if men are somewhat more aggressive and women are not equally aggressive, if we can agree on that, then we need to take that into account before we submit the female to 16 years of submission to caring for her child.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Even among pro-choice people, the support varies. As you say, men can be aggressive and dominating. So if men are somewhat more aggressive and women are not equally aggressive, if we can agree on that, then we need to take that into account before we submit the female to 16 years of submission to caring for her child.

Not just 16 years, but as long as the unwanted child needs her.

Every time I debate abortion with men, all they want to do is criticize women. They never want to accept a very obvious fact: that the man is responsible every single time. So I always call those men anti-choicers instead of pro-lifers because they are just attacking girls and women, not showing any interest at all in the mother's mental and physical suffering or the future of her unwanted baby.
 
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Vesper_Jaye✝️

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Not just 16 years, but as long as the unwanted child needs her.

Couldn’t someone adopt the child? Adoption can be traumatic, but abortion is too.

(Sorry if that sounds like debating or something, I’m not trying to)
 
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lismore

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Do all liberals, specifically liberal Christians, support abortion and LGBTQ+?

Hello! Although those are two interesting and important issues I can't help feeling they sometimes overshadow equally important issues.

What about greed for example, which is a sin and which is rife in our society and even in church.

Luke 12: 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

IME 'Conservative' Christians sometimes seem to turn a blind eye towards greed and social inequalities. Like a National Health Service that the UK has but the USA doesn't, providing healthcare at the point of need for the most vulnerable is a good thing in many ways.

The picture might be more complex than liberal= unGodly, Conservative = Godly. Neither philosophy completely reflects Christian values IMHO.

God Bless :)
 
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GodLovesCats

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Couldn’t someone adopt the child? Adoption can be traumatic, but abortion is too.

(Sorry if that sounds like debating or something, I’m not trying to)

How would you like to be forced to stay pregnant against your will instead of make the choice to carry the baby to term? If a woman wants to do it for someone else, good for her. But no woman has the obligation. Nobody has the right to make her suffer mentally and physically against her will.

I hope you do not think I disagree with the biological definition of human life. I just hate the way men only criticize women and act like being raped - not the rapist - is a sin.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes they do, by way of their support of the Democrat party and it's platform, regardless of what they say...

You may not know this, but Democrats don't necessarily believe in the the entire platform. That's not our style. So the idea that God will condemn all Democrats is ridiculousness.
 
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SkyWriting

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That wasn't the primary role for Paul. First, I don't think unavailability of Scripture was an issue. The first Christians were Jews, and they definitely had Scripture available. Gentile Christians probably came from Gentiles who hung around the synagogues. They would have had access as well.

None had the New Testament available. So it couldn't have been followed for wisdom. Not even Paul had was what yet to be written. So when Paul said that all scripture was from God, he was talking about the Old Testament only.
 
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The Liturgist

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The problem with exceptions for rape, and I say this as someone considered to be a liberal in these forums, in terms of actually permitting abortion, is that it creates a loophole wherein the potential for abuse exists. However, unlike some people, who seem to think that women raped basically have to deal with it, I believe there is a suitable alternative, and that is a compensation system wherein rape victims would be paid by the government, and since we now know now very wealthy many rapists are, like Jeff Epstein, I propose to fund this by expanding civil asset forfeiture from drug offenses to sex crimes, and then redirecting all funds from both to create special funding for rape victims, which would be available regardless of whether or not they wished to be a mother or put the child up for adoption; the only variation in the amount of the compensation would be if the victim was underage, an additional scholarship for college tuition would be provided, similar to benefits under the GI bill.

Now this scheme might also be abused with false claims, but I would rather send teenage parents to college and spare them a lifetime of poverty; indeed, I am not even sure being a rape victim should be the only way to qualify for the program I propose. Since abortion would continue to be available in Canada, the UK and most of our other major trading partners, even if Roe vs. Wade were repealed here, as I see it, a true pro-life policy would be one which would not only be designed to incentivize Americans not to leave the country but one which would be designed to incentivize citizens of those countries not to have abortions but to come to America.

The program would cause a net positive impact to the economy by increasing the size of the population, which increases demand; the main risk would be increased housing and transport pressure but that too could be addressed by encouraging cities to do more medium density zoning, and medium density mixed use zones are highly beneficial in terms of reduced automobile usage, because commercial services can be provided on the ground floor, and the higher population density makes high end mass transit such as lightrail and streetcars (what we Americans call electric trams such as dominate in cities like Melbourne, Vienna, St. Petersburg, Prague, Zurich and Milan; North America has some very good trams in Toronto, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and New Orleans, with the San Francisco and New Orleans systems containing some lines which are also major tourist attractions akin to the famed trams and funiculars of Lisbon), which unlike busses, people enjoy using.

So there you have it, an integrated pro-life, pro-immigration, pro-economy, pro-housing, pro-transit plan. Because a true pro-life plan has to encourage people to not have abortions anywhere in the world, which requires very open immigration policies, which requires doing a better job in terms of mass transit and avoiding suburban sprawl, and the urban development aspect, if done right, can also greatly improve quality of life for everyone. And I also believe if the US did this, God would reward us spiritually and the result could be improved national unity, more women in higher paying jobs as a result of harm reduction for teenage mothers by providing them an automatic scholarship (virtually all would qualify even if rape were a prerequisite to assistance, on the grounds of statutory rape, but I would rather such a program be universal).

Now, don’t get me wrong, rape is a terrible tragedy, and I propose to provide women of all ages, as well as boys and young men at risk for sexual assault, with free devices which could contact the police if they were in distress, and increase funding so that dedicated officers could be on call to respond to device activations.

I am also pro-life in general; I am opposed to euthanasia and am very uncomfortable with capital punishment. I think a similar program to prevent assisted suicide would be worthwhile, which could be predicated upon greatly improving access to pain relief medication for people with chronic and terminal illnesses, who have suffered as a result of reductions in the availability of pain treatment medication due to the opiod crisis; indeed they have been the victims as much as families of overdose victims. And the main killer these days among opiods in the US is not any medically sanctioned drug, but fentanyl, which in a clinical setting is administered only as the opiod of last resort in the treatment of people who are terminally ill, with the only options past that point being sedation and drugs like ketamine. In addition, with regards to terminally ill patients, a principle of palliative care is the “double effect principle,” where people in sufficient pain deserve access to medication for it, even if there is a risk of death, because the benefit of reduced pain outweighs the risk and death is inevitable; this is not the kind of doctor assisted suicide I am opposed to, and indeed, I would dent that it constitutes assisted suicide in any capacity, since all anesthesia carries risk; there is a .01% chance of fatal side effects with general anesthesia, which is positively required for many medically necessary surgeries to be possible.

But the goal should be to preserve and extend life and minimize suffering in all settings, while discouraging death. Death is bad, abortion is bad, euthanasia is bad, poverty is bad; the US is, due to unique political circumstances, perhaps the only country where the political will to attempt a program to tackle all of this misery exists due to the extremely large pro-life population. In general, my approach is predicated on one of the few aspects of Roman Scholastic theology I like, those being the acts of corporeal mercy. I am all for everything we can do as a society to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, treat the sick, shelter the homeless, care for the orphans, care for the dying, bury the dead. For this reason, I am excited about the opportunity to care for suffering displaced Ukrainians, and I believe the program should be expanded to include Russians who would otherwise potentially starve due to economic sanctions, a general rescue plan for all the suffering Slavic people.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not just 16 years, but as long as the unwanted child needs her.

Every time I debate abortion with men, all they want to do is criticize women. They never want to accept a very obvious fact: that the man is responsible every single time. So I always call those men anti-choicers instead of pro-lifers because they are just attacking girls and women, not showing any interest at all in the mother's mental and physical suffering or the future of her unwanted baby.

I agree with you on this: men have to accept responsibility for all pregnancies. This is why I want to target sexual predators with civil asset forfeiture.

One thing that really boils my blood is when people suggest women are at risk of rape because of how they dress, act, et cetera. I hear this nonsense from Islamic apologists in particular due to the horrific nature of Sharia laws and honor killing of women. My response to it is no, a woman is never responsible for her being the victim of rape; it is by definition the fault of the man for failure to control his own urges, which most men do, but a minority of monsters do not. The only cases where women are responsible for rape is in the rare cases where they commit sex crimes, for example, when female teachers seduce students. There was also a bizarre case a few years ago where a lesbian transman seduced a woman under the pretense of being a natural born male, and had sexual relations of some sort, and this was of course rape, and the female/trans perpetrator was convicted, because in any scenario where deception is used to procure sexual relations, such a scenario is by definition rapacious.

Oh, I also forgot to mention in my aforementioned abortion avoidance plan that there would also be special compensation for women who as a result of rape were infected with an STD.

Rape is something that matters a lot to me, because a close loved one was raped twice in the 1970s, and the response by the police at the time was not what it is today. While things are far from optimal, I will say that treatment of rape victims and suspected rape victims has improved enormously. Indeed, in prior decades, young boys were prosecuted in the juvenile justice system if they were the victims of pederasty. That was really horrible.
 
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The Liturgist

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Lastly, speaking of sexual assaults, the paddling of public school students is a national disgrace. I think I speak for all American liberal Christians when I say this needs to be stopped. There was a horrific incident in Tennessee where a five year old was paddled. The mother was coerced into allowing it, because what sadistic principals do is threaten to invoke CPS and take parents children away from them if they object to the brutal corporal punishment regime. That Child Protective Services is being used as a means of extorting parents, particularly vulnerable parents such as single mothers, into permitting corporal punishment which they otherwise would opt their children out of, is a horror and a travesty.

Slightly off topic, but since we are talking about rape, considering that in many of these states, school boards allow opposite sex principals, vice principals and teachers to paddle students, for example, the grotesque scenario of a male principal in his late 50s paddling teenage girls in high school is also extremely common place, and I am sure @ChristianForCats you would agree with me that is rape, straight up rape; even if it does not involve sexual penetration, it is a sexual assault.
 
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Shogun of Truth

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I appreciate the tone of the OP, and one of the reasons I signed up was in hopes that maybe there is a place in world where we can still cross political lines and be good to one another in the love of Christ.

As someone who used to be a conservative, but no longer is, I'd like to point out a couple things that I had no idea of when my only theology source was from Republicans.

1. "Liberal" has become a very meaningless term in the United States. I've heard progressives and socialist use the term as insults for people to the right of them, and conservatives as an insult to people on the left.

The left is a much more diverse in thought, and probably one of the reasons we have such a problem of "eating our own." When I was conservatize, I had no idea, and just thought everyone on the left largely believed the same thing, as the right mostly does.

2. The fact that certain faith/theology has become defined more by peoples political beliefs, rather then the other way around, is concerning, and something we need to move past. I stopped voting Republican and changed church's in 2016/2017 because my faith in Christ demanded it. I didn't change my voting because I changed churches.

3. I don't think many if any Christians "supports" abortion the way you ask the question, so I had an hard time choosing in the poll. Again, when I was conservative, the other side of this is simple not explained at all. It was just a lot of "democrats think its okay to kill babies" and that was it.

So let me say this, I considered myself, Pro-choice and I also want to live in a world where abortions only happen in the rarest of cases.


Let me explain, in my view, banning abortion is a lot like solving homeless and poverty and crime, buy just throwing everyone in jail without a job or a home. Your city would look a lot nicer on the surface, but nothing about what you did changes the reasons there are homeless, poverty and crime in the first place. You just banned the public facing consequences of it.

Same with banning abortion.

Every unwanted pregnancy is a failure of society to some extent. Instead of asking how we can persecute woman who want them, we need to address why woman want them in the first place, because guess what, if you don't do that, we are just going back to back alley and travel abortions anyway.

Abortions drop when you have accessed access to healthcare, birth control, increased sexual health education and paid maternity leave and assistances to single mothers.
I know its temping to just say that people should just "be better" but we all broken people , and that's just not going to happen. People are going to keep having sex with people they shouldn't no matter if you like it or not.

As for the morality of abortion itself,
honestly, that is kind of theological question based about your personal thoughts on the soul and when that souls begins. The government doing any kind of ban on this without making a theological stateman is impossible. For a purely scientifically specular standpoint, a fetus is not self aware. You can't force a woman to believe your faith and throw her in jail, because you believe that God put a soul in that fetus at a certain time.

And you know what? I do not want to live in a theocracy. What happens when the government decides your Christianity and your church is the wrong kind? We kinda been through that whole thing before.

Separation of church and state exists for a reason, not to remove God from ours lives, but to protect that right.

I believe there is a world where abortion is 100% legal, but even less of them occur then pre-roe v wade.

Seeing the right hell bent on banning abortion and then apposing every bill that would actually lower unwanted pregnancies was a big gang changer on my views on the issue.


4. As for LGBTQ+.., I've heard more young people leave the church over this then any other issue,
I think Jesus loves everyone and doesn't make mistakes.
This should not be a political issue or a religious issue. Its a moral one. I have a hard time wrapping my head around theology that tells a minority group that God made them wrong.

If the church doesn't at least become open to different views on this, it is in for massive growth issues in the future.

The fact that some churches have made this such a core piece of theology is disheartening, when the Bible has like 4 verses (none of them by Jesus himself) you could argue are about same sex acts (all written thousands of years before the idea of sexual orientation, condoms', and monogamous same sex relationships were even a thing, and cultural norms would have forced these closeted acts to almost always involve adulatory, pagan rituals, prostitution, (with often underage boys) and putting your wife at risk of STD's)

The Bible is full of love, to fixit on these handful of verses that don't seem to work in a modern context, but ignore others that would inconvenience the lives of heterosexuals couples in modern times,(look at the rules for wet dreams and periods for examples) is not being faithful biblically, its selectivity picking out verses out of context to target a group of people already hurting and confused about their feelings for the same sex, and how that relates to their love of Jesus.

We need to do better. Now.
 
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Lukaris

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There were early church manuals that provided a basic teaching that articulated the apostolic faith. The major surviving one ( about 100 AD) is called the Didache:

Didache

The Lord’s commandments, prayer, fasting, baptism, holy communion etc. are prominent. The sins mentioned in Romans 1 are evident.
 
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pescador

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The OP is clearly meant to be goading. "Do all liberals..." puts people into one category of thought, which is the typical pattern of bigotry. People think independently.

Also, lumping abortion and "lgbtq" into a single category is also goading. They are two separate issues (if lgbtq is actually a category).

Abortion is a very complex subject, ranging from a woman who decides to abort a child for convenience to a teenager who has been raped to a woman who stands a good chance of dying if she doesn't terminate the pregnancy. The issue must be decided by a woman (or younger) and her caregiver. Period.

Regarding "lgbtq", which I assume means a person's freedom to determine their own gender, why shouldn't anyone be given the freedom guaranteed under the US Constitution? Can anyone show me a law that says that a person doesn't have that freedom?
 
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The Liturgist

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There were early church manuals that provided a basic teaching that articulated the apostolic faith. The major surviving one ( about 100 AD) is called the Didache:

Didache

The Lord’s commandments, prayer, fasting, baptism, holy communion etc. are prominent. The sins mentioned in Romans 1 are evident.

Indeed, and there is a direct continuity between the Didache, which I personally try to observe, the Apostolic canons, which I also observe, and the canons of the early Church Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils.

All of this early canon law I view as applicable to all Christians regardless of denomination, because it predates all of the schisms which currently divide Christianity.
 
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SkyWriting

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Couldn’t someone adopt the child? Adoption can be traumatic, but abortion is too.
So can caring for an unplanned child for 9 months.
1 in 5 women experience sexual violence during their lifetime.
Then add pregnancy to one of the most traumatic events a woman can experience.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I've never seen someone who was politically and theologically liberal be against abortion. They may exist, but I suspect the inherent logic of liberalism/leftism makes that an extremely minority position. What is theological liberalism and why does it tend to support things like abortion and access to it more so than theological conservatism?

Excluding arguments about rape or the life of the mother, I am curious why theological liberals are more likely to support abortion on demand. Does it come down to an overriding concern to protect the first two instances of abortion they will defend the latter as well? To prevent a slippery slope? Even if abortion on demand is immoral?
 
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SkyWriting

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I've never seen someone who was politically and theologically liberal be against abortion. They may exist, but I suspect the inherent logic of liberalism/leftism makes that an extremely minority position. What is theological liberalism and why does it tend to support things like abortion and access to it more so than theological conservatism?

Excluding arguments about rape or the life of the mother, I am curious why theological liberals are more likely to support abortion on demand. Does it come down to an overriding concern to protect the first two instances of abortion they will defend the latter as well? To prevent a slippery slope? Even if abortion on demand is immoral?
Theological liberals support the new covenant rather than the obsolete one of 613 written laws.
The New one is focused on forgiveness for mistakes.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Theological liberals support the new covenant rather than the obsolete one of 613 written laws.
The New one is focused on forgiveness for mistakes.
What is the forgiveness here in the case of abortion? Specifically an elective abortion to kill a child whom is viable and poses no risk to the mother? What is the theological liberal forgiving in that case? Is the abortion itself somehow a redemptive purging of the consequences of the sex this woman had? Or is the theological liberal forgiving the abortion itself?

Conservatives are not opposed to forgiving others. What we would insist on is some sort of genuine repentance and need to change one's life.
 
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