DNA disproves evolution

[JoshuaDaryl]

An insurmountable obstacle

Keith Mason

Space does not permit me to adequately point out all the fallacies within Evolutionary Theory (it is not a fact, only a theory) so I will illuminate just one.
Information is perhaps the biggest problem for evolutionists. They cannot explain the origin or complexity of information. In Creator Beyond Time and Space, Mark Eastman writes that “a fertilized human egg is about the size of a pin head. Yet, it contains information equivalent to about six billion ‘chemical letters’ [of DNA]. This is enough information to fill 1000 books 500 pages thick with print so small you would need a microscope to read them.” Dr. Eastman says, “If all the DNA letters in the human body were printed in [ordinary] books, it is estimated they would fill the Grand Canyon fifty times!”4 In fact, according to the May 21, 2004, Answers In Genesis Newsletter, there is enough information in the genes from just one man and woman, that they could have more children than atoms in the entire universe without getting two that looked alike.
Where did this information come from? Evolutionists have no explanation. Researchers cannot explain how the high degree of order and specificity could arise by random processes.

If you go to the Biology department at most universities and ask them where the information in the cell came from, they will tell you that it arose by chance millions and millions of years ago. But if you go to the Computer Science department at the same university, and ask them where information comes from, they will tell you that information is created by removing chance (noise). That, in fact, information is the opposite of chance.
Werner Gitt, information scientist, and author of In the Beginning Was Information writes, “There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.”6
So where did the information come from? Dr. John Baumgardner, Geophysicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory tells us: “The answer should be obvious -- an intelligent Creator is unmistakably required.”

Not only is the origin of information a problem, but evolutionists cannot explain how life became more complex. The theory of evolution is supposed to explain how life progressed from simple lifeforms to more complex lifeforms.
However, the amount of information in a single cell - a protozoa - is far less than the amount of information in a person. According to Don Batten, for a typical bacterium to be transformed into a human over some billions of years, one has to add the information for an additional 100,000 genes - an impossible task for mutations to achieve.

Natural selection is a logical process that can be observed. However, natural selection can only operate on the information already contained in genes — it does not produce new information.


Where did the information come from, let us say for arguments sake that some protozoa just came into existence, who or what programmed its cells?

 

[Armoured]

*sigh*

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

All I did was ask where the information came from ? Don't sigh, it is not my fault science can not explain this.

 

[cubanito]

First part of information: it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a chirally pure substance from racemic or achiral precursors. Not kinda, maybe, IMPOSSIBLE. Every one of the trillions carbon atom of every DNA molecule is chirally pure.

Basic organic chemistry is ignored by all these very intelligent people. It would be difficult to understand why so many so well educated people ignore basic facts, were it not for the epistle to the Romans; written by a very educated former Pharisee who zealously supressed the Truth until the Light of Truth blinded him.

Having been Saul, Paul understood as no other Apostle how intelligence and learning is no shield from willful stupidity.

Having rejected macroevolution while still an agnostic, I still wonder at the tremendous faith people place on macroevolutionary mythology. I did not have enough faith to believe in what was clearly IMPOSSIBLE for so many reasons. I am glad God made me of very little faith.

JR

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

It is said that an evolutionist has more faith than a christian

 

[New Legacy]

In fact, according to the May 21, 2004, Answers In Genesis Newsletter, there is enough information in the genes from just one man and woman, that they could have more children than atoms in the entire universe without getting two that looked alike.

Well, that is totally false.

Where did this information come from? Evolutionists have no explanation. Researchers cannot explain how the high degree of order and specificity could arise by random processes.

It doesn't occur by random processes, it occurs by selective processes which increasingly favor order. It began by simply RNA that was produced by natural processes forming chains that eventually could self replicate entirely on their own.

If you go to the Biology department at most universities and ask them where the information in the cell came from, they will tell you that it arose by chance millions and millions of years ago.

The information comes by favored selection.


But if you go to the Computer Science department at the same university, and ask them where information comes from, they will tell you that information is created by removing chance (noise). That, in fact, information is the opposite of chance.
Werner Gitt, information scientist, and author of In the Beginning Was Information writes, “There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.”6

So where did the information come from? Dr. John Baumgardner, Geophysicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory tells us: “The answer should be obvious -- an intelligent Creator is unmistakably required.”

He's a geophysicist, not a biologist.

Not only is the origin of information a problem, but evolutionists cannot explain how life became more complex. The theory of evolution is supposed to explain how life progressed from simple lifeforms to more complex lifeforms.
However, the amount of information in a single cell - a protozoa - is far less than the amount of information in a person. According to Don Batten, for a typical bacterium to be transformed into a human over some billions of years, one has to add the information for an additional 100,000 genes - an impossible task for mutations to achieve.

Natural selection is a logical process that can be observed. However, natural selection can only operate on the information already contained in genes — it does not produce new information.


Where did the information come from, let us say for arguments sake that some protozoa just came into existence, who or what programmed its cells?

Life is created because processes are not random, they favor increased replication and eventually reproduction. The world began with RNA, RNA merged into chains that could produce similar chains using RNA. The chains that did nothing, did nothing, the chains that replicated themselves spread rapidly. Chains or RNA became increasingly competitive.

Despite what anti-evolutionary people say, mutations are not random. Certain regions are more like to undergo mutations which can be helpful in their environment.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Lost in translation
The genetic information code points to an intelligent source

by Calvin Smith

Published: 6 May 2010(GMT+10)

Photo stock.xchng
What good are instructions if no one is receiving them?
‘What good are instructions if no one is receiving them?’
The Kingston Trio song “Desert Pete” reached its peak Billboard position (# 33) in 1963. The tune described a traveler in the desert that encounters an old water pump and a baking powder tin with a note in it. The writer of the note explains that buried underneath the sand he has placed a jar with water in it, and if the traveler primes the pump with its contents, they will be able to have all the water they desire. He warns however;

“Now there’s just enough to prime it with
so don’tcha go drinkin’ first
You just pour it in and pump like mad,
buddy, you’ll quench your thirst … ”
This amusing tune speaks of loving your neighbor in a practical way (one person taking the time to leave the water jar) and also of confidence in your fellow man (the other man’s step of faith by trusting that the instructions left are correct and that the water will not be wasted unnecessarily).

Send and receive

But what if the traveler was unable to read the note (either because they were of a different culture or simply illiterate)? What good would the information have been without someone that could understand it?

Obviously in any form of communication (whether Braille, Morse code, spoken language etc) there must first be a transmitter and then a receiver that understands the specific code used or else the communication is useless, literally “lost” in translation. If Desert Pete’s traveler had been Chinese (and didn’t understand English) he might have perished!

Origin of a code

Atheistic evolutionists are committed to a materialistic origin of life. As such, there should be no non-material quantity to the universe. However, modern science shows us that the study of biology is largely a study of information science, as all living things contain vast libraries of information in the form of a genetic code (DNA).

So committed evolutionists must believe (for the origin of life to have occurred naturalistically) that a code system originated by chance, with no outside intelligence. But experimental science has shown this is false. Information is non-material; it is a metaphysical entity, and has only been observed to be derived from an intelligent source. An example can be demonstrated simply.

… in any form of communication … there must first be a transmitter and then a receiver that understands the specific code used or else the communication is useless, literally ‘lost’ in translation.

Pretend I take a piece of chalk and write a message on a blackboard; “Hi, my name is Cal”. If I asked you “Where did the information come from?” would you say “From the chalk”? If I were to rub the message off the board and show you the chalk on my hand would you say there is any information in it? No.

Obviously information was carried on the material of the chalk (because of the arrangement) but chalk has no inherent information content. The information can be traced back to the mind (me) that formulated the message, not the matter (calcium carbonate). Similarly, DNA is comprised of sugar, phosphates and bases, but the matter that it is made of does not contain the information, the arrangement of it does.

So information is 1) metaphysical (it is not a part of the matter it is carried on) and 2) only ever been observed to be created by intelligence. This is a huge challenge to the atheistic paradigm, and many atheistic evolutionists committed to their faith are aware of the challenge and trying desperately to solve it.

“To stem the growing swell of Intelligent Design intrusions, it is imperative that we provide stand-alone natural process evidence of non trivial self-organization at the edge of chaos. We must demonstrate on sound scientific grounds the formal capabilities of naturally-occurring physicodynamic complexity.”1
This evolutionary author (DL Abel) has identified what he calls the “null hypothesis” to naturalism,2 shown below.

Can we falsify any of the following null hypotheses?
Neither spontaneous combinatorial complexity nor “The Edge of Chaos” can generate:
Mathematical logic
Algorithmic optimization
Cybernetic programming
Computational halting
Integrated circuits
Organization (e.g., homeostatic metabolism far from equilibrium)
Material symbol systems (e.g., genetics)
Any goal-oriented bona fide system
Language
Formal function of any kind
Utilitarian work
But he admits the more honest we are about current discoveries within living things, the further away from naturalistic explanations we get;

“ … science has an obligation to be honest about what the entire body of evidence clearly suggests. We cannot just keep endlessly labelling abundant evidence of formal prescription in nature “apparent”. The fact of purposeful programming at multiple layers gets more “apparent” with each new issue of virtually every molecular biology journal.”3
So the ever increasing accumulation of observable evidence is going in the wrong direction! All living things operate and replicate using vast quantities of coded information which is stored, read, transcribed and translated. All of these processes shout out purposeful, intelligent sophisticated programming (far more advanced than any technology we’ve yet conceived), not blind, purposeless, naturalistic processes.

Aside from the fact that no one has observed a code system spontaneously generating, it is even beyond our imagination to concoct a story of how matter could formulate a code. So, far from the average lay person’s belief that scientists have the origin of life figured out, the honest scientists who understand the problem are admitting that they don’t know at all.

“At the same time, we have spent much of the last century arguing to the lay community that we have proved the current biological paradigm. Unfortunately, very few in the scientific community seem critical of this indiscretion. One would think that if all this evidence is so abundant, it would be quick and easy to falsify the null hypothesis put forward above.”4
The faith needed to believe that a code system spontaneously came into being is far fetched, but the concept that ‘matter’ developed a ‘mind’ capable of understanding it goes beyond faith and into the realm of fantasy.

But the problem is even more dire than most people know. Not only must the committed materialist believe that a code system spontaneously generated, they must also believe that a translation device specific to that exact code must also have “evolved” through natural causes! (The coded information in the DNA of living things is only useful when translated and expressed in specific structures and functions).

This is truly a dizzying prospect, as not only is the process of translation itself (in all of our experience) another activity that can always be traced back to an intelligent source,5 but what is the chance (in the infinite amount of “translators” that might have evolved) for it to be the exact one that matched the code that evolved?

It’s like the note in Desert Pete. Even if the note could have written itself somehow, what good is the note if there were no one to understand it? What good are instructions if no one is receiving them? The faith needed to believe that a code system spontaneously came into being is far fetched, but the concept that “matter” developed a “mind” capable of understanding it goes beyond faith and into the realm of fantasy.

A step of faith

Faith in Jesus Christ is based on trust in God’s word. The Bible is a credible message given to us from the past from one who foresaw our needs and cares and wants the best for us. It has not, as some critics say, been lost in translation, but a message that has been faithfully passed on for hundreds of years. However, it is not a blind leap, but an intelligent step forward based on evidence and logic.

Belief in atheistic evolution is a blind faith. It is a belief based in non-observed, unproven scientific processes, while philosophically denying hope, purpose, justice or ultimate meaning to life.

The explorer in this life faces the same options as the desert traveler. Live a life full of short term gratification (drink the water in the jar) or enjoy the full life of abundance (put your faith in an unseen source). The results of non-belief lead to ultimate ruin, but the step of faith leads to eternal life.

As Pete says;

“You’ve got to prime the pump, you must have faith and believe
You’ve got to give of yourself ’fore you’re worthy to receive
Drink all the water you can hold, wash your face, cool your feet
Leave the bottle full for others, thank you kindly, Desert Pete”

Related Articles

 

[dhh712]

Space does not permit me to adequately point out all the fallacies within Evolutionary Theory (it is not a fact, only a theory) so I will illuminate just one.
Information is perhaps the biggest problem for evolutionists. They cannot explain the origin or complexity of information. In Creator Beyond Time and Space, Mark Eastman writes that “a fertilized human egg is about the size of a pin head. Yet, it contains information equivalent to about six billion ‘chemical letters’ [of DNA]. This is enough information to fill 1000 books 500 pages thick with print so small you would need a microscope to read them.” Dr. Eastman says, “If all the DNA letters in the human body were printed in [ordinary] books, it is estimated they would fill the Grand Canyon fifty times!”4 In fact, according to the May 21, 2004, Answers In Genesis Newsletter, there is enough information in the genes from just one man and woman, that they could have more children than atoms in the entire universe without getting two that looked alike.
Where did this information come from? Evolutionists have no explanation. Researchers cannot explain how the high degree of order and specificity could arise by random processes.

A Mormon and I were just discussing this a couple days ago, how it takes a huge amount of faith to believe in evolution. You are basically (most everyone anyhow who does put their faith in such a theory) relying on evidence from what scientists put forth from their experiments in which it is impossible to be free from any bias whatsoever. Yet, the atheist will (most likely) never admit that they are utilizing the same tool, faith, that the believer uses to believe upon God--it just depends on which objective you are using to act out, so to speak (or live according to), that faith: the atheist uses the world while the believer uses the Bible.

 

[cubanito]

A Mormon and I were just discussing this a couple days ago, how it takes a huge amount of faith to believe in evolution. You are basically (most everyone anyhow who does put their faith in such a theory) relying on evidence from what scientists put forth from their experiments in which it is impossible to be free from any bias whatsoever. Yet, the atheist will (most likely) never admit that they are utilizing the same tool, faith, that the believer uses to believe upon God--it just depends on which objective you are using to act out, so to speak (or live according to), that faith: the atheist uses the world while the believer uses the Bible.

It is much worse than that for those who believe in macroevolution. They need to ignore the experimental data in multiple fields completely. While there are a few observations that do not fit neatly into a creationist framework, there are orders of magnitude more observations that are IMPOSSIBLE to accomodate within a naturalistic macroevolutionary framework. Since the OP was about DNA, I pointed out that the pure chirality of the components of DNA are impossible to make in a laboratory without similarly pure chiral precursos. No selection process known favors d-sugars found in living systems from l-sugars, both reacting identically to non-chiral reactants. That goes for the bases, the amino acids, the RNA and so on. That is before any information is encoded at all as sequential base pairs.

The number of errors posted on this thread are too many for me to address. Here's a few:

Information is NOT the removal of noise, rather a coded selective use of noise. Take the following three binary codes and 3 questions as an example:

000000000000000000

000000000011111111

011010000101110001



1- Which one contains most information?

Trick question: given the data, it is not possible to know. The first and last may represent a random but repeated signal. The middle one may be random OR it may have much information. Without a decoding mechanism, information is not even present for the observer, it is completely useless information. Similarly we encounter the same when referring to the info in DNA: without the extremely complex translational proteins, ribosomes m-rna, t-rna, ect, no information from DNA is of any relevance at all. However, the information for all those translational processes reside on the DNA. DNA can not be translated without the products of it having already been translated. This is an "irreducible complexity" argument. Nothing favors any information until the mechanisms for it being implemented are operational, no such mechanisms can come about by random chance due to their extremely complex design within the lifespan of the universe.


However, if you have a "secret decoder ring" then you can decide which has or not relevant information. But in order to convey anything beyond the most basic of information, you must introduce what to anyone without this knowledge is noise.

A pure tone like 0000000000 carries very little information, if any at all. What sounds like noise is necessary for carrying information. If a singer comes on stage and utters one uninterrupted tone, that does not convey the infromation of complicated lyrics. But to someone who does not speak the language (no secret decoder ring) the lyrics are just noise.

The elimination of noise from a system is not the elimination of physical entropy, but rather the introduction of entropy in a non-random way. The only way to know the difference is to already have a system that is sufficiently complex AND congruent to the signal dynamics to make sense of it.

JR

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

awesome cubanito, it seems you have some background in science, I on the other hand am a farmer who likes to read. I have read the irreducible complexity argument, and it makes great sense, as also the argument for information. It baffles me how someone can keep walking into a wall, and still argue there is no wall.

 

[dhh712]

It is much worse than that for those who believe in macroevolution. They need to ignore the experimental data in multiple fields completely. While there are a few observations that do not fit neatly into a creationist framework, there are orders of magnitude more observations that are IMPOSSIBLE to accomodate within a naturalistic macroevolutionary framework. Since the OP was about DNA, I pointed out that the pure chirality of the components of DNA are impossible to make in a laboratory without similarly pure chiral precursos. No selection process known favors d-sugars found in living systems from l-sugars, both reacting identically to non-chiral reactants. That goes for the bases, the amino acids, the RNA and so on. That is before any information is encoded at all as sequential base pairs.

The number of errors posted on this thread are too many for me to address. Here's a few:

Information is NOT the removal of noise, rather a coded selective use of noise. Take the following three binary codes and 3 questions as an example:

000000000000000000

000000000011111111

011010000101110001



1- Which one contains most information?

Trick question: given the data, it is not possible to know. The first and last may represent a random but repeated signal. The middle one may be random OR it may have much information. Without a decoding mechanism, information is not even present for the observer, it is completely useless information. Similarly we encounter the same when referring to the info in DNA: without the extremely complex translational proteins, ribosomes m-rna, t-rna, ect, no information from DNA is of any relevance at all. However, the information for all those translational processes reside on the DNA. DNA can not be translated without the products of it having already been translated. This is an "irreducible complexity" argument. Nothing favors any information until the mechanisms for it being implemented are operational, no such mechanisms can come about by random chance due to their extremely complex design within the lifespan of the universe.


However, if you have a "secret decoder ring" then you can decide which has or not relevant information. But in order to convey anything beyond the most basic of information, you must introduce what to anyone without this knowledge is noise.

A pure tone like 0000000000 carries very little information, if any at all. What sounds like noise is necessary for carrying information. If a singer comes on stage and utters one uninterrupted tone, that does not convey the infromation of complicated lyrics. But to someone who does not speak the language (no secret decoder ring) the lyrics are just noise.

The elimination of noise from a system is not the elimination of physical entropy, but rather the introduction of entropy in a non-random way. The only way to know the difference is to already have a system that is sufficiently complex AND congruent to the signal dynamics to make sense of it.

JR

You have a lot more scientific background than I do, it appears. Didn't you say you were in the medical field? I thought you mentioned it in a post, but can't seem to find it anywhere. I'm a pharmacist and can remember not too much detail of my chemistry and physiology classes. What I do remember is that we really don't know too much of anything! (it seems we have barely scratched the surface of the different types of receptors on cells!) I recall the levo- and dextro- enantiomers though from organic chemistry (had to look up to make sure that chirality referred to the enantiomers and not something else).

About the noise and translating it, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you basically saying how can the noise be removed if it is not known as noise?

 

[cubanito]

One of my degrees is MD, certified Internal Medicine. Such information is useless without the decoder ring, so here's the inside scoop on the medical specialties:

Internal medicine physicians know everything, but doe nothing.
Surgeons know nothing, but do everything.
The psychiatrist neither knows or does anything.
The pathologist knows everything, does everything, too late you're dead.

There are of course additional notes, like the family practitioner knows how to reassure the patient he knows and is doing everything; while his secratary calls up the specialist.

Or the one that got me a very dirty look from the chief on neurosurgeon when I told my medical students in his presence: "In what way is a neurosurgical consult the same as a mafia hit? Same result, a hole in the head and a dead body." The students tried real hard not laughing at that one in front of the neurosurgeon.

I hope that explains the profound uselessness of my posts.

JR

 

[DanJudge]

An insurmountable obstacle

Keith Mason

Space does not permit me to adequately point out all the fallacies within Evolutionary Theory (it is not a fact, only a theory) so I will illuminate just one.
Information is perhaps the biggest problem for evolutionists. They cannot explain the origin or complexity of information. In Creator Beyond Time and Space, Mark Eastman writes that “a fertilized human egg is about the size of a pin head. Yet, it contains information equivalent to about six billion ‘chemical letters’ [of DNA]. This is enough information to fill 1000 books 500 pages thick with print so small you would need a microscope to read them.” Dr. Eastman says, “If all the DNA letters in the human body were printed in [ordinary] books, it is estimated they would fill the Grand Canyon fifty times!”4 In fact, according to the May 21, 2004, Answers In Genesis Newsletter, there is enough information in the genes from just one man and woman, that they could have more children than atoms in the entire universe without getting two that looked alike.
Where did this information come from? Evolutionists have no explanation. Researchers cannot explain how the high degree of order and specificity could arise by random processes.

If you go to the Biology department at most universities and ask them where the information in the cell came from, they will tell you that it arose by chance millions and millions of years ago. But if you go to the Computer Science department at the same university, and ask them where information comes from, they will tell you that information is created by removing chance (noise). That, in fact, information is the opposite of chance.
Werner Gitt, information scientist, and author of In the Beginning Was Information writes, “There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.”6
So where did the information come from? Dr. John Baumgardner, Geophysicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory tells us: “The answer should be obvious -- an intelligent Creator is unmistakably required.”

Not only is the origin of information a problem, but evolutionists cannot explain how life became more complex. The theory of evolution is supposed to explain how life progressed from simple lifeforms to more complex lifeforms.
However, the amount of information in a single cell - a protozoa - is far less than the amount of information in a person. According to Don Batten, for a typical bacterium to be transformed into a human over some billions of years, one has to add the information for an additional 100,000 genes - an impossible task for mutations to achieve.

Natural selection is a logical process that can be observed. However, natural selection can only operate on the information already contained in genes — it does not produce new information.


Where did the information come from, let us say for arguments sake that some protozoa just came into existence, who or what programmed its cells?

GOD The Ultimate Programmer --- Thank You My LORD and My GOD
Brothers/Sisters, This is some infro. from the "Little Book" of Revelation Chapter 10. Read and Study, Seek and You Will Find.

Behold, He survives the peoples and lands, who is more Ancient than they. Behold, He is Man-crafter, fixed, immutable, the Giver of the Book to man. And DNA produces life to produce more DNA. And He is Encoder, Programmer, who rules the world from the Scrolls of light, sparkings and flashings rising to man, coalescing, freezing in the Semite, immutable, fixed, bowing in awe toward their Source in the radiant Scroll of Moses.

And look now at this glorious phenomenon of the racial Semiticization of one billion South Asians, how successful a life-form the Semite therefore is in evolutionary terms! And indeed all humanity is clearly programmed for reunification in the Semite, for mankind was in the beginning all one, and then spread out from Africa, filling the limits of the world island, this issuing in the emergence of those specialized subdivisions known today as races. But each race bore all distinctive characteristics of man, including his incomparable brain, and a primordial knowing is therefore shown in the great ease and success of Semiticization, that the brain of man must ultimately remake his environment, so that mankind, temporarily dividing not to compete but to survive, would fuse together yet again and become yet again as at the beginning all one. Thus evolution and its exalted Programmer — ever triumphant is He, all aware — have sought from the dawn-age and seek still today an all Semitic world. It is a programmed ultimate. And if all matter is congealed energy and resolves itself back to energy again, and the energy then recongeals once more, we must yet affirm that the ultimate ground and root of "motion," that is, the causality displayed in all this, is again an extraneous mind and will, which is to say our God, the Self-existent One, the Root of all being, blessed be He, and exalted be the remembrance of His glorious Name forever.

Behold, the Scripture shows itself again as the perfection of contemporaneity! The Designer, the Programmer, the Cause of causes, the Power in the Law, the Power in the Prophets, the Power in the Gospel, Master of the law of nature reaching out, Master of the Law of Moses reaching out — say that He is God the One, Immutable, Splendid. There is no God but He.

Come to Christ and hear Him well. He has rendered the Synagogue a translucent gem, irradiant, impregnable. He bids you to enter and remain with Him forever. He is the universalizer of the Law and the Prophets, that man of Israel called "Light of the Gentiles." He has come. He has not founded a new religion, but calls all men eternally to the first of faiths, and the Law of the God of Moses. See how evolution stops short with man, for man is the child and image of its exalted Programmer, blessed be He, and all that is coming is worldwide racial Semiticization, programmed in from before the emergence of the races. And man is and shall be forever one unified distinct species, and is to become even "one nation in the earth" (II Samuel 7:23; I Chronicles 17:21), and one life alone is ideal for man, which he had at the beginning but then lost in Babylon, and this is restored to him through the Scripture of truth.

Truly these are present there, as is Israelite status for the poor of the world, but no man can draw them to the surface without prophetic authority, which is to be found only in Christ and the New Testament. the Programming Mind; utter truth-telling through symbols and types, figures, foreshadowing that no man could miss, that no man could know of the ancient men who wrote these words of veiled and encoded wisdom and wonder; utter truth-telling of being, of existence, of the world as witness, the emergence of all, the mechanistic, the non-mechanistic, Mind as the Root of matter, the Root of life, the Root of law, God as One, as the Cause of causes, the Miracle enfolding from which the cosmos lives, the house of law and nature lit by flashes from the true Beyond, from the Designer, the Guide, The Programmer, Lord of Creation, of evolution, of history, Lord of the Scripture that has no peer, Heart of Heaven, Heart of earth, the Light within all screens and veils, the Light beyond all screens and veils, instantly knowable, ever unknowable, Lord of the Realm of Mystery. And you know much of the wonders of the Name. And it is the lightest of sounds to pronounce, for He creates through His word, exalted be He. And a spark goes forth from Him, who has no second, before whom stands no intercessor, and it is the first of four, of the Name of the God of all the earth, of whom it is written, "as the LORD is One only, so shall His Name be one only" (Zechariah 14:9). And a window opens in Heaven, and the spark of light and life-force flashes through, passing to a lower realm by the wide open portal beneath.

Every effect requires a cause. The world is an effect. Have we not shown you the Exalted One? Whatever could exist or not exist found presently to exist, is maintained in its existence by an external cause. Then have we not shown you the Exalted One? Design bespeaking purpose bespeaks a designer. Then surely we have shown you the Exalted One. All programmed law bespeaks a programmer. Thus do we show you the Exalted One. Complex life-systems emerging all at once as units bespeak cosmic programming. Surely we have shown you the Programming Mind. Behold the immense instability within the subatomic level, and yet this superstructure rises and stands undisturbed. Behold the zone of contact with, the zone of emanation from, the mind of the dreaming God. The knowing of the unknowable in a Book preserved, flawless, multidimensional, fifteen hundred years in the birthing — surely there are signs for a people having understanding.

Thus the existence of God is as self-evident to the mind nearest to nature and the point of evolutionary emergence as the messiahship of the Holy One. Say then, "Where did it all come from? Who made all this world? He must be wise with the wisdom of life; He must be the most Ancient of elders; He must be the Lover and Turner toward man, and the Giver of Law to nature and to man. He must be God our Lord the One, as nothing is just there, a given, as everything has a cause, as this world is unified, a vast machine, and with no chaos in it. No, I do not much care where He came from, but this world is here, and Somebody made it. Beyond flux and motion stands the Mover, beyond design and purpose stands the All-aware, beyond the impossible stands the miraculous, the Programming Mind.." Say, "I seek the causes of things — seeking the causes of things is my most distinctively human trait. Seeking the causes of things, I find I must posit the existence of a God — One, Wise, orderly, man-loving, profoundly sane. Thus have I found the Programming Mind. Having found a man-loving Programmer, I look for a Law from Him for man, for I see that man’s affairs are in manifest disarray, and I find that the miraculous breaks through nature only to validate one Book only. It is a Book of Law, of heritage and tradition, of universalization, a Book of the miraculous, of order and rationality, of God our Lord the One, guiding man back to Eden, there to remain with this Book in his hand forever." Say, "Now I see before me the wonder-working Christ. I say, ‘My Lord and my God!’ I say, ‘Jesus, will you work Your wonders in a thousand lands two thousand years from now? Will You send a Revelation through Your prophet John? Jesus, I believe You, Lord! I believe You when You speak of Moses and the canon of the Jews. I believe You when You speak of God the One, the Wise, the All-aware. And I believe You when You speak of me a worm and not a man, who bows Himself in awe before Your Throne, O Lord, and at the feet of our master Moses.’ " The cosmic Christ stands before you, suffused with the glory of the Father, bidding to the Faith of the Father, bidding to love and mercy, bidding to the Prophets of old and the eternal, immutable and perfect Law of Moses. Speak and say, "O Bringer of truth and righteousness to the world, who goes before the Father to prepare a way among the Gentiles for the Law, You told us plainly ‘by their fruits shall you know them’ (Matthew 7:20) — and none of all the Christians bear good fruit but Protestants!" "It is even as you say, O man. You are not far from the Kingdom of My Father. He must increase, but I must decrease. This My joy therefore is fulfilled. Have I not brought the Law forth to man? Is the Father-God not the Lord of hosts due to Me? Praise be to God My Lord, the Wise, the Merciful, the All-aware! The First of the Hebrews is He, the Lord God of Israel in a Jewless world. And He is God the One, Immutable, Loyal, Bold. There is no God but He!" And so returns the Faith of the Father-God the One, and the Faith of our master Moses. It is a programmed ultimate.

— Barry I. Hyman
CHRISTIAN REVOLUTIONARY BROTHERHOOD

Peace Be With You All
DanJudge

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It is much worse than that for those who believe in macroevolution. They need to ignore the experimental data in multiple fields completely. While there are a few observations that do not fit neatly into a creationist framework, there are orders of magnitude more observations that are IMPOSSIBLE to accomodate within a naturalistic macroevolutionary framework.

Actualy, its possible.

Since the OP was about DNA, I pointed out that the pure chirality of the components of DNA are impossible to make in a laboratory without similarly pure chiral precursos. No selection process known favors d-sugars found in living systems from l-sugars, both reacting identically to non-chiral reactants. That goes for the bases, the amino acids, the RNA and so on. That is before any information is encoded at all as sequential base pairs.

Since the chirality of the molecules of life are mediated by enzymes, it is merely a matter of chance how the enzymes first settled on a d form instead of an l form, and they remained with it ever after.

Information is NOT the removal of noise, rather a coded selective use of noise.

rather, MEANING is dependant on the coding. Information that is not understood is STILL information.

Take the following three binary codes and 3 questions as an example:

000000000000000000

000000000011111111

011010000101110001

1- Which one contains most information?

Trick question: given the data, it is not possible to know.

They all contain the same amount of information, but the information is different from one to the other.

The first and last may represent a random but repeated signal. The middle one may be random OR it may have much information. Without a decoding mechanism, information is not even present for the observer, it is completely useless information.

Again we see the confusion between information and meaning.

Similarly we encounter the same when referring to the info in DNA: without the extremely complex translational proteins, ribosomes m-rna, t-rna, ect, no information from DNA is of any relevance at all. However, the information for all those translational processes reside on the DNA. DNA can not be translated without the products of it having already been translated. This is an "irreducible complexity" argument. Nothing favors any information until the mechanisms for it being implemented are operational, no such mechanisms can come about by random chance due to their extremely complex design within the lifespan of the universe.

Clearly the DNA coding process is the end result of a process that developed what you describe over a period of time. We have a theory as to how information that is useful to the living cell can develop more and more complexity. It is basically occasional random mutation followed by natural selection.

It is this process that allows for what is described in the previous posts as impossible to achieve. Of course, its rather slow, but there was time. Eons and eons of time.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Actualy, its possible.



Since the chirality of the molecules of life are mediated by enzymes, it is merely a matter of chance how the enzymes first settled on a d form instead of an l form, and they remained with it ever after.




rather, MEANING is dependant on the coding. Information that is not understood is STILL information.





They all contain the same amount of information, but the information is different from one to the other.




Again we see the confusion between information and meaning.




Clearly the DNA coding process is the end result of a process that developed what you describe over a period of time. We have a theory as to how information that is useful to the living cell can develop more and more complexity. It is basically occasional random mutation followed by natural selection.

It is this process that allows for what is described in the previous posts as impossible to achieve. Of course, its rather slow, but there was time. Eons and eons of time.

your faith in random evolution is bigger than your faith in an ALMIGHTY CREATOR, it has to be, in order to believe in the impossible

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

your faith in random evolution is bigger than your faith in an ALMIGHTY CREATOR, it has to be, in order to believe in the impossible

You misjudge my faith. I am a committed Christian and my faith is that God is the creator and sustainer of all things and in Him is my hope of eternal life through Jesus His Son.

You keep asserting that evolution is impossible. But in stating that, aren't you limiting God? You are in effect saying God is not omniscient enough to create a universe in which evolution would bring us about.

I have enough faith in God to believe He could do that. You, apparently, do not. Now who has the most faith?

But I know your opposition to evolution is not based on a wish to say God could not make a universe in which evolution could occur. Instead, it is your loyalty to the Bible in its literal interpretation that is driving your rejection of the findings of science. We all know that.

But you know how literal bible interpretations are not fixed. Look at the variety of beliefs and theologies that come from literal believers. Look at the hoops they jump through, weirdly, to reconcile what seems to be contradictions in the bible. (Other people's hoops they jump are weird, mine are of course the only logical way to regard things.)

So just do that reconciliation thingy with the actual findings of science. It can't be any harder than what you've already done

 

[DanJudge]

In The Beginning - God Who Is - Jesus Christ - Created
________________________________________
Joshua/Brothers/Sisters, This is another chapter from that "Little Book" of Revelation Chapter 10. Seek And You Will find.

IN THE BEGINNING

Now though a luminary rose and set for seven true days at Creation as a great cosmic finger pointing at the prophet Moses, seventh from Abraham, and at the Saturday Sabbath as representative of his Law, yet notice that our sun was created on the fourth day and was therefore not this luminary (and compare “like the light of the seven days” of Isaiah 30:26), but rather that our earth and sun, moon and stars together are contained within the hollowed out “expanse” formed by God within a watery sphere, which is a planet, on the next highest order of magnitude, where our galaxies are molecules and our solar systems atoms (and that our earth is round and hangs unsupported in space is the clear teaching of Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7), so that the revolution of this supernal earth once about its axis would truly involve the passage of an aeon of time, which may be called a geologic age, here below. Thus there are supernal and lower heavens, which are, of course, expanses of outer space, as there are a hollowed out supernal watery earth (though we might be in a bubble, or we might be in the fire at its core — or it might be the postulated curvature of the universe alone being expressed here in a figure) and this one placed within it. And so the Scripture says in Psalm 148:4, “Let the heaven of heavens praise Him, and the waters that are above the heavens.” Yes, truly, “Let everyone who breathes praise the LORD. Hallelujah!” (150:6).

Surely the astounding degree of correspondence between the creation narrative of the Law and what is now known of this issue from other sources represents in itself a mighty witness for the supernatural origin of the Bible and far from the opposite, the attacks of open enemies and the dissimulating defense of false advocates quite aside. And the Lord’s prophet, speaking of the divine use of a new technique, that of verbal inspiration, in the giving to come of that perfection of knowledge and prophecy, that is, the book of Revelation, the Word in its journey toward us, in accord with the true saying, “Behold, I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves: be therefore wise as serpents, but yet unmixed in loyalty as doves.” of Matthew 10:16, having had earlier to pass as though through a gauntlet first of Israelite and then of Greek wolves, says in I Corinthians 13:8-13, “Love will have no end. But whether there are prophecies, they will be done away with; or tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be done away with; because we know partially and we prophesy partially. When that which is perfect comes, however, that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see things enigmatically through a looking glass; but then face to face. I know now partially; but then I will know fully, just as I am fully known. So there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” And the “love” spoken of here is of course that love distinct to Scripture, which is world lower class solidarity.

All the multitudinous characteristics of life displaying each one transcendent genius radiate forth from physical entities called chromosomes and genes, arranged as the components of chromosome chains. Now these chromosome chains, which are, again, physical entities, are in each species of a specific and distinct physical form. Who programmed these chains? From whom came the true genius behind the Venus flytrap reflected in the affairs of the mindless plant? From whom came the true self-aware intelligence behind the artificial intelligence of all life, that indeed programmed all life as we would computers? Thus input from a self-aware disembodied mind extraneous to the beings in question (and ourselves knowing how large and complex an organ the source and seat of intelligence in man is), which might as well be called a spirit, is in each case the long sought for mechanism of evolution — itself a type of the displacement of great Babylon, likened in Scripture to an ancient dinosaur, as though by weak and diminutive mammals, to come — and as this issue is addressed elsewhere. Now where there is life, there are chromosome chains for the great collective or group spirits, the spirits of all life, to program, but where life is absent — though the likeness of all the world is a bird that is born, a peacock that develops, called “good” straight through by our Lord, but then “very good” when completed — there can only be a blind groping and a throwing out of more and more matter by that “angel having authority over fire” of Revelation 14:18, and then the casting forth of oceans by the “angel of the waters” of 16:5, seeking for life. And is it not true that this earth of ours is so finely balanced in regard to such a host of variables that must be each one exactly so for intelligent life (and well-nigh life at all) to ever emerge, that its existence is a statistical impossibility? And, the seeming potential for this in man aside, is it merely fortuitous that during the course of billions of years of evolutionary activity life has somehow failed to evolve its own destroyers? And just what is gravity? Is it energy or is it matter? Or is it perhaps nothing at all, the open interweaving of the miraculous with the fabric of the world right before our eyes here and now, one further chink in the machine-like facade of what is speciously called “nature” behind which can be seen the grinning Face of the God mocking at the arrogance and conceit of the rulers. And if all matter is congealed energy and resolves itself back to energy again, and the energy then recongeals once more, we must yet affirm that the ultimate ground and root of “motion,” that is, the causality displayed in all this, is again an extraneous mind and will, which is to say our God, the Self-existent one, the Root of all being, blessed be He, and exalted be the remembrance of His glorious Name forever.

And what do those truly seek who since the rise of capitalism and imperialism have attacked us with such persistence and enthusiasm? Is it not the transformation of Christian idealism into a free-floating though now irrational value cut off from its source and guide in revealed religion that then, seeking of itself a transcendent cause, will freely adhere to concepts and goals put forward by the elite — “free enterprise,” nationalism, racism, imperialism, and even war itself? But woeful and piteous is our state, for who could have thought that the world’s other half would be found dominated by even more vicious and “progressive” forces than these mighty worms of Wall Street that lord it over us? And that, of course, for ourselves, the world’s true and sole international and non-national element, is the crux of our dilemma and our Gordian knot.

—Barry I. Hyman
CHRISTIAN REVOLUTIONARY BROTHERHOOD

Peace Be With You All
DanJudge

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

In The Beginning - God Who Is - Jesus Christ - Created
________________________________________
Joshua/Brothers/Sisters, This is another chapter from that "Little Book" of Revelation Chapter 10. Seek And You Will find.

IN THE BEGINNING

Now though a luminary rose and set for seven true days at Creation as a great cosmic finger pointing at the prophet Moses, seventh from Abraham, and at the Saturday Sabbath as representative of his Law, yet notice that our sun was created on the fourth day and was therefore not this luminary (and compare “like the light of the seven days” of Isaiah 30:26), but rather that our earth and sun, moon and stars together are contained within the hollowed out “expanse” formed by God within a watery sphere, which is a planet, on the next highest order of magnitude, where our galaxies are molecules and our solar systems atoms (and that our earth is round and hangs unsupported in space is the clear teaching of Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7), so that the revolution of this supernal earth once about its axis would truly involve the passage of an aeon of time, which may be called a geologic age, here below. Thus there are supernal and lower heavens, which are, of course, expanses of outer space, as there are a hollowed out supernal watery earth (though we might be in a bubble, or we might be in the fire at its core — or it might be the postulated curvature of the universe alone being expressed here in a figure) and this one placed within it. And so the Scripture says in Psalm 148:4, “Let the heaven of heavens praise Him, and the waters that are above the heavens.” Yes, truly, “Let everyone who breathes praise the LORD. Hallelujah!” (150:6).

Surely the astounding degree of correspondence between the creation narrative of the Law and what is now known of this issue from other sources represents in itself a mighty witness for the supernatural origin of the Bible and far from the opposite, the attacks of open enemies and the dissimulating defense of false advocates quite aside. And the Lord’s prophet, speaking of the divine use of a new technique, that of verbal inspiration, in the giving to come of that perfection of knowledge and prophecy, that is, the book of Revelation, the Word in its journey toward us, in accord with the true saying, “Behold, I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves: be therefore wise as serpents, but yet unmixed in loyalty as doves.” of Matthew 10:16, having had earlier to pass as though through a gauntlet first of Israelite and then of Greek wolves, says in I Corinthians 13:8-13, “Love will have no end. But whether there are prophecies, they will be done away with; or tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be done away with; because we know partially and we prophesy partially. When that which is perfect comes, however, that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see things enigmatically through a looking glass; but then face to face. I know now partially; but then I will know fully, just as I am fully known. So there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” And the “love” spoken of here is of course that love distinct to Scripture, which is world lower class solidarity.

All the multitudinous characteristics of life displaying each one transcendent genius radiate forth from physical entities called chromosomes and genes, arranged as the components of chromosome chains. Now these chromosome chains, which are, again, physical entities, are in each species of a specific and distinct physical form. Who programmed these chains? From whom came the true genius behind the Venus flytrap reflected in the affairs of the mindless plant? From whom came the true self-aware intelligence behind the artificial intelligence of all life, that indeed programmed all life as we would computers? Thus input from a self-aware disembodied mind extraneous to the beings in question (and ourselves knowing how large and complex an organ the source and seat of intelligence in man is), which might as well be called a spirit, is in each case the long sought for mechanism of evolution — itself a type of the displacement of great Babylon, likened in Scripture to an ancient dinosaur, as though by weak and diminutive mammals, to come — and as this issue is addressed elsewhere. Now where there is life, there are chromosome chains for the great collective or group spirits, the spirits of all life, to program, but where life is absent — though the likeness of all the world is a bird that is born, a peacock that develops, called “good” straight through by our Lord, but then “very good” when completed — there can only be a blind groping and a throwing out of more and more matter by that “angel having authority over fire” of Revelation 14:18, and then the casting forth of oceans by the “angel of the waters” of 16:5, seeking for life. And is it not true that this earth of ours is so finely balanced in regard to such a host of variables that must be each one exactly so for intelligent life (and well-nigh life at all) to ever emerge, that its existence is a statistical impossibility? And, the seeming potential for this in man aside, is it merely fortuitous that during the course of billions of years of evolutionary activity life has somehow failed to evolve its own destroyers? And just what is gravity? Is it energy or is it matter? Or is it perhaps nothing at all, the open interweaving of the miraculous with the fabric of the world right before our eyes here and now, one further chink in the machine-like facade of what is speciously called “nature” behind which can be seen the grinning Face of the God mocking at the arrogance and conceit of the rulers. And if all matter is congealed energy and resolves itself back to energy again, and the energy then recongeals once more, we must yet affirm that the ultimate ground and root of “motion,” that is, the causality displayed in all this, is again an extraneous mind and will, which is to say our God, the Self-existent one, the Root of all being, blessed be He, and exalted be the remembrance of His glorious Name forever.

And what do those truly seek who since the rise of capitalism and imperialism have attacked us with such persistence and enthusiasm? Is it not the transformation of Christian idealism into a free-floating though now irrational value cut off from its source and guide in revealed religion that then, seeking of itself a transcendent cause, will freely adhere to concepts and goals put forward by the elite — “free enterprise,” nationalism, racism, imperialism, and even war itself? But woeful and piteous is our state, for who could have thought that the world’s other half would be found dominated by even more vicious and “progressive” forces than these mighty worms of Wall Street that lord it over us? And that, of course, for ourselves, the world’s true and sole international and non-national element, is the crux of our dilemma and our Gordian knot.

—Barry I. Hyman
CHRISTIAN REVOLUTIONARY BROTHERHOOD

Peace Be With You All
DanJudge

Have you considered writing fantasy science novels?

 

[cubanito]

1- Given an operational definition of impossble as one in a googol chance, and that the production of the minimum number of molecules necessary for the simplest possible life form is less than one in a googolplex, the emergence of life is impossible. Same for the formation of a star given the behaviour of a gas in a vacuum and many, many other facts.

2- To produce a functioning enzyme OR a functioning r-RNA with enzymatic capability, you must first assemble hundreds to thousands of chirally pure compounds. There is NO KNOWN MECHANISM in organic chemistry to produce chiral purity from achiral precursors. Pasteur first demonstrated chirality in his doctoral chesistry thesis by hand sorting cristals of tartaric acid, thus Pasteur himself was the chirally pure agent. To say that once a pure enzyme (or m-RNA is available) the selection of chiraly pure compounds from a racemic mix is to ignore how such an enzyme came to be in the first place.

3- Information without the ability to decode it is not relevant information at all. Even if you magically create a nucleic molecule with relevant information; in the absence of 1- a translational mechanism, 2- chirally pure substrates and 3- the presence of all these in close proximity with the exclusion of random reactants (such as the fact that sugars randomly and non-ezymatically bind to amino acids) you have an operational lack of information.


Lastly, unlike many here I do not impugn you Christian commitment. Many of the greatest and most commited minds in Christendom, like CS Lewis and even the otherwise very conservative Machen believed the macroevolutionary myth. However, as an agnostic I was able to realize how absurd the Darwinist mythos is. Your posts lack critical thinking skills. You are not alone. Very few people can think clearly. Many experiments have shown that if you gather a bunch of actors to say that a clearly blue dot is actually red; most people will actually see the blue dot as red. Perhaps growing up in a communist regime taught me to distrust authority.

Once in a psychology class to illustrate the point, the professor had someone run in with a banana and threaten a hostage situation. In the room of 50+ people I was the only one to immediately laugh because I saw a banana there everyone saw a gun. A similar situation was done to my youngets daughter in school where the science teachers placed raisins inside a bottle of Sprie and assigned as a lab for the children to count how many legs the "animals" had. Only my daughter, out of more than 100 high school girls wrote that there were no legs and that she did not see any directed movement.

Perhaps even arrogance, of which me and my kids seem to have in bucketfuls, has a benefit: we trust our senses and our thinking, resisting peer pressure with ease.

I do not doubt your Christian commitment. I do doubt your capacity for independent thinking, as I do that of 99% of those I meet.

JR

 

[Edouard]

Faith: believing in something without seeing. "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen.." (Christ said this)

Aside from this: the actual bottom line is it takes the same amount of faith to believe in God creating the world and everything in it as it does for someone to believe in any form of evolution.

Point: I believe God created the universe in the order described in Genesis. Now what is a day considered to God - no one knew at that time. I do not believe in evolution/macro-evolution.

Typically people are generally either mad at God or the "church" so they look for reasons as to why or prove their own thesis as would a Christian who believes in God.

Your belief in how the world was created is faith - no one was there except the Trinity(God,Jesus,Holy Spirit).

I choose to believe in Jesus: Outside of my own love for God and what he has done for us as a people.

What other book has existed as long as the Bible?
What other book has outside references proving what is says historically is true?
What other book has archeological evidence of what has taken place?
What other book that claims what it does has as many authors and do not contradict themselves?

Imperical evidence: nothing in the Bible has been proven historically inaccurate.
What would you rather put your faith in... something that keeps changing or does not know...