Divorce then Remarriage?

[Mustaphile]

Dearly loved friends,

I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the truth of the Good News.

God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I must remind you--and you know it well--that even though the Lord rescued the whole nation of Israel from Egypt, he later destroyed every one of those who did not remain faithful. And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the day of judgment.

And don't forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with sexual immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and are a warning of the eternal fire that will punish all who are evil.

Jude 3-7

If you think that what I am saying is that God's grace is a licence to sin then your failing to see the point.

You have a desire to serve Christ to the best of your ability, but you fail. So others seek to serve Christ to the best of the their ability but they fail too. We all fail. We are free from condemnationYou are unable to do one thing to deserve God's grace other than trusting in faith that he loves you and forgives you. That's all we can do. We accept God's grace and seek to surrender ourselves to the Spirit within us and let it shine forth.

1 Is it not clear, my brothers (I am using an argument to those who have knowledge of the law), that the law has power over a man as long as he is living? 2 For the woman who has a husband is placed by the law under the power of her husband as long as he is living; but if her husband is dead, she is free from the law of the husband. 3 So if, while the husband is living, she is joined to another man, she will get the name of one who is untrue to her husband: but if the husband is dead, she is free from the law, so that she is not untrue, even if she takes another man. 4 In the same way, my brothers, you were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, even to him who came again from the dead, so that we might give fruit to God.

1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was not able to do because it was feeble through the flesh, God, sending his Son in the image of the evil flesh, and as an offering for sin, gave his decision against sin in the flesh: 4 So that what was ordered by the law might be done in us, who are living, not in the way of the flesh, but in the way of the Spirit. 5 For those who are living in the way of the flesh give their minds to the things of the flesh, but those who go in the way of the Spirit, to the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 Because the mind of the flesh is opposite to God; it is not under the law of God, and is not able to be: 8 So that those who are in the flesh are not able to give pleasure to God.9 You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is in you. But if any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is not one of his. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him who made Jesus come again from the dead is in you, he who made Christ Jesus come again from the dead will in the same way, through his Spirit which is in you, give life to your bodies which now are under the power of death. 12 So then, my brothers, we are in debt, not to the flesh to be living in the way of the flesh: 13 For if you go in the way of the flesh, death will come on you; but if by the Spirit you put to death the works of the body, you will have life. 14 And all those who are guided by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not get the spirit of servants again to put you in fear, but the spirit of sons was given to you, by which we say, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit is witness with our spirit that we are children of God: 17 And if we are children, we have a right to a part in the heritage; a part in the things of God, together with Christ; so that if we have a part in his pain, we will in the same way have a part in his glory. 18 I am of the opinion that there is no comparison between the pain of this present time and the glory which we will see in the future. 19 For the strong desire of every living thing is waiting for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For every living thing was put under the power of change, not by its desire, but by him who made it so, in hope 21 That all living things will be made free from the power of death and will have a part with the free children of God in glory. 22 For we are conscious that all living things are weeping and sorrowing in pain together till now. 23 And not only so, but we who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we have sorrow in our minds, waiting for the time when we will take our place as sons, that is, the salvation of our bodies. 24 For our salvation is by hope: but hope which is seen is not hope: for who is hoping for what he sees? 25 But if we have hope for that which we see not, then we will be able to go on waiting for it. 26 And in the same way the Spirit is a help to our feeble hearts: for we are not able to make prayer to God in the right way; but the Spirit puts our desires into words which are not in our power to say; 27 And he who is the searcher of hearts has knowledge of the mind of the Spirit, because he is making prayers for the saints in agreement with the mind of God. 28 And we are conscious that all things are working together for good to those who have love for God, and have been marked out by his purpose. 29 Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers: 30 And those who were marked out by him were named; and those who were named were given righteousness; and to those to whom he gave righteousness, in the same way he gave glory. 31 What may we say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not keep back his only Son, but gave him up for us all, will he not with him freely give us all things? 33 Who will say anything against the saints of God? It is God who makes us clear from evil; 34 Who will give a decision against us? It is Christ Jesus who not only was put to death, but came again from the dead, who is now at the right hand of God, taking our part. 35 Who will come between us and the love of Christ? Will trouble, or pain, or cruel acts, or the need of food or of clothing, or danger, or the sword? 36 As it is said in the holy Writings, Because of you we are put to death every day; we are like sheep ready for destruction. 37 But we are able to overcome all these things and more through his love. 38 For I am certain that not death, or life, or angels, or rulers, or things present, or things to come, or powers, 39 Or things on high, or things under the earth, or anything which is made, will be able to come between us and the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When we accept Christ we are dead to our former selves and we die daily. For this reason we are covered by God's grace. We live in the Spirit now. We should not doubt the Spirits ability to work in the lives of believers in Christ. There is not one thing that we can do in the flesh to follow God's laws. It is only in the Spirit that we are alive. Our fleshly bodies are dead in God's eyes, through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Who will make decision against us? Not Heartman, not me, not any man. Christ will make decision, sitting at the right hand of God. Christ promised that those who believe in him shall be free from condemnation through sin. I believe that promise and so should any believer in Christ.

 

[Yitzchak]

We are all sinners. The blood of Christ covers our sins. When we are before God, he will make the judgement on whether we sought to follow his commandments or not. If we judge harshly, we will be harshly judged by God. God forgives your sin, as you should forgive others of their sin.

You take it to far when you say that people who want to remarry are licencing sin. They are not licencing sin. They will remarry and carry on their walk with God.

Matthew chapter 7 - "midda-keneged-midda" which means measure for measure in hebrew. This teaching of Jesus convicts me eveytime I read it or hear it.

 

[Heartman]

Christ promised that those who believe in him shall be free from condemnation through sin. I believe that promise and so should any believer in Christ.

Mustaphile, by your misuse of the Holy and wonderful truths of the gospel of grace, you are teaching a gnostic version of Christianity that had been dealt with severly by the early church. You may not know what you are doing, perhaps being unaware of how we, as the church formed our foundations of truth, and fought against this particular heresy. Therefore I simply caution you that you are walking in serious delusion to think that Christ died to save or sanctify sin. He did not. He died to save and sanctify sinners from their sin.

Ignatius was the lead disciple of the Apostle John and one of the first leaders of the Christian church after the age of the Apostles. In about 100a.d. he wrote about the gnostic heresy that was separating Christianity from strict moral behaviour, as you are. Some gnostic Christians were claiming that Christ shielded them from being responsible to keep Christ's moral commandments in regard to marriage - that they would not be held accountable to God for their continued sin after conversion. This is how he replied:

“No man truly making a profession of faith sins, or does he that possesses love hates any one. The tree is made manifest by its fruit; so those that profess themselves to be Christians shall be recognized by their conduct. For there is not now a demand for mere profession, but that a man be found continuing in the power of faith to the end…”

“…Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified!”

“Such a one becoming defiled in this way shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.” (Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians)

Perhaps you are acting instinctively with compassion for those who have been caught in their sin choices, and dislike anyone or anything that causes division or dissention. I don't know. I can not make a judgment call on your motives. Only God can, and will, do that. But I can and must make a judgment on your teaching, as is the responsibility of all Christians who know the difference, and choose not to remain indifferent. I remind you to rightfully divide the Word of Truth.

"How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don’t you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. So let us celebrate the festival, not by eating the old bread of wickedness and evil, but by eating the new bread of purity and truth.

When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with such people.

It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.” -1 Corinthians 5:6-13

Heartman

 

[harmmony]

Mustaphile, by your misuse of the Holy and wonderful truths of the gospel of grace, you are teaching a gnostic version of Christianity that had been dealt with severly by the early church. You may not know what you are doing, perhaps being unaware of how we, as the church formed our foundations of truth, and fought against this particular heresy. Therefore I simply caution you that you are walking in serious delusion to think that Christ died to save or sanctify sin. He did not. He died to save and sanctify sinners from their sin.

It is your right to RESPECTFULLY disagree with what someone such as Mustaphile has said (I personally completely agree with him), but you are going a bit far to suggest that because he doesn't agree with you then he might not know what he is doing or that he's deluded. I think that you should get off your high horse and stop behaving as if you are the only possessor of the truth. And nowhere did Mustaphile suggest that grace somehow justifies sin, you have completely misunderstood what he was saying, maybe on purpose. He said "free from condemnation through sin." I think he means that sin that is forgiven is sin that is forgotten to God, that we do not have to live in guilt or punishment for sins in which forgiveness was genuinely sought.

Ignatius was the lead disciple of the Apostle John and one of the first leaders of the Christian church after the age of the Apostles. In about 100a.d. he wrote about the gnostic heresy that was separating Christianity from strict moral behaviour, as you are. Some gnostic Christians were claiming that Christ shielded them from being responsible to keep Christ's moral commandments in regard to marriage - that they would not be held accountable to God for their continued sin after conversion. This is how he replied:

“No man truly making a profession of faith sins, or does he that possesses love hates any one. The tree is made manifest by its fruit; so those that profess themselves to be Christians shall be recognized by their conduct. For there is not now a demand for mere profession, but that a man be found continuing in the power of faith to the end…”

“…Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified!”

“Such a one becoming defiled in this way shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.” (Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians)

I really don't know why you are quoting Ignatius, last time I checked he wasn't one of the authors of the Word, so therefore he must be just a man like all of us, with his own interpretations and views on any subject, with no more or less authority than anyone who has studied the Word. By the way, can you please explain what gnostic Christianity is, I have no idea.

Perhaps you are acting instinctively with compassion for those who have been caught in their sin choices, and dislike anyone or anything that causes division or dissention. I don't know. I can not make a judgment call on your motives. Only God can, and will, do that. But I can and must make a judgment on your teaching, as is the responsibility of all Christians who know the difference, and choose not to remain indifferent. I remind you to rightfully divide the Word of Truth.

"How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don’t you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. So let us celebrate the festival, not by eating the old bread of wickedness and evil, but by eating the new bread of purity and truth.

When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with such people.

It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.” -1 Corinthians 5:6-13

Heartman

Yes these are sins, no worse than any others. We all commit sin. Are you suggesting that you don't, or that your sin is just not as bad? I really don't think it's your place to judge whether or not a person becoming remarried after divorce is sexual immorality. That is what you are saying right?, sometimes it's hard to figure out exactly what your point is.

Only God knows the heart and circumstances of a person's divorce and their heart. Therefore only He knows if a person is committing sin when they remarry. It's not my place or yours to judge them. Certainly in other cases of sexual immorality it is fairly clear cut if a person is in sin or not - I really don't believe that this issue is at all clear cut. You can't make a blanket judgement on the people involved.

 

[Mustaphile]

Mustaphile, by your misuse of the Holy and wonderful truths of the gospel of grace, you are teaching a gnostic version of Christianity that had been dealt with severly by the early church. You may not know what you are doing, perhaps being unaware of how we, as the church formed our foundations of truth, and fought against this particular heresy. Therefore I simply caution you that you are walking in serious delusion to think that Christ died to save or sanctify sin. He did not. He died to save and sanctify sinners from their sin.

The Gnostic teachings have been removed from our Bible, come to think of it, they were never in there. The Gnostic teachings are contained in books that scholars read which may have been read in the early church, but have never been in the Bible that we use today.

I am talking about what is written in the New Testament. I am not talking about secret knowledge or salvation through knowledge, nor am I talking about using magic or any other Gnostic teachings. I presented you with scripture from the Bible. I follow all the beliefs in the Nicene Creed.

What I am talking about is faith. Faith in Jesus Christ's redeeming sacrifice. Faith that his sacrifice has made the flesh dead in God's eyes and now the Spirit dwells within us, covering us for our sins, so that we are free to walk in faith and certainty of his salvation. Through condemnation you bring the yoke of law down upon the believer once again and leave them fearful for their own salvation. Should they despair of their salvation, you may well have led them to their own destruction, through your condemnation. Tearing at the roots of the foundations of their belief, the very faith in Jesus's redeeming sacrifice is destructive and demoralising them.

Build up your brothers and sisters in love, mercy and forgiveness. Let them see the Christ within you speaking to them, comforting them in their moment of weakness. Taking them in your arms and saying, "Have faith brother. Have faith sister. Christ will continue to work in your life if you have faith." Feel the pain of their suffering and and know that through that suffering they will be forged and purified in the hot fire and will come out the other side strengthened and renewed in their faith, seeking forgiveness and surrendering to the Spirit that dwells within them.

We are dead to the law now. Christ has told us so. He stated that when the man looked in lust at another woman he had already commited adultery. If we were under law he would be condemned by his sin, but we are not under law. Our flesh is dead, and a dead man is no longer under the law. We follow the law of the Spirit, which is the fulfillment of the law.

fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, a quiet mind, kind acts, well-doing, faith, 23 Gentle behaviour, control over desires: against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have put to death on the cross the flesh with its passions and its evil desires. 25 If we are living by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us be guided. 26 Let us not be full of self-glory, making one another angry, having envy of one another.

These are the principles that guide us now. The fruits of the Spirit. Guidance by the Spirit.

1 Christ has truly made us free: then keep your free condition and let no man put a yoke on you again. 2 See, I Paul say to you, that if you undergo circumcision, Christ will be of no use to you. 3 Yes, I give witness again to every man who undergoes circumcision, that he will have to keep all the law. 4 You are cut off from Christ, you who would have righteousness by the law; you are turned away from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit by faith are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6

We through the Spirit by faith are waiting for the hope of righteousness. Keep your free condition and let no man put a yoke on you again.

The teachings on remarriage and adultery you advocate are trying to once more bring people under the law based on the flesh.

12 Those who have the desire to seem important in the flesh, put force on you to undergo circumcision; only that they may not be attacked because of the cross of Christ. 13 Because even those who undergo circumcision do not themselves keep the law; but they would have you undergo circumcision, so that they may have glory in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to have glory in anything, but only in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which this world has come to an end on the cross for me, and I for it. 15 For having circumcision is nothing, and not having circumcision is nothing, but only a new order of existence. 16 And on all who are guided by this rule be peace and mercy, and on the Israel of God. 17 From this time on let no man be a trouble to me; because my body is marked with the marks of Jesus. 18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. So be it.

-edit-

Your use of the passage in I Corinthians 5, is out of context. A man was commited a most heinous sin, that was not even heard of by the Gentiles. It was a particularly despicable action on his part and has no relevance to a two people who are legally divorced, spirit filled christians looking to enter a marriage. How you can compare the two I fail to understand.

I'll quote the whole passage in context.

1 It is said, in fact, that there is among you a sin of the flesh, such as is not seen even among the Gentiles, that one of you has his father's wife. 2 And in place of feeling sorrow, you are pleased with yourselves, so that he who has done this thing has not been sent away from among you. 3 For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing; 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 This pride of yours is not good. Do you not see that a little leaven makes a change in all the mass? 7 Take away, then, the old leaven, so that you may be a new mass, even as you are without leaven. For Christ has been put to death as our Passover. 8 Let us then keep the feast, not with old leaven, and not with the leaven of evil thoughts and acts, but with the unleavened bread of true thoughts and right feelings. 9 In my letter I said to you that you were not to keep company with those who go after the desires of the flesh; 10 But I had not in mind the sinners who are outside the church, or those who have a desire for and take the property of others, or those who give worship to images; for it is not possible to keep away from such people without going out of the world completely: 11 But the sense of my letter was that if a brother had the name of being one who went after the desires of the flesh, or had the desire for other people's property, or was in the way of using violent language, or being the worse for drink, or took by force what was not his, you might not keep company with such a one, or take food with him. 12 For it is no business of mine to be judging those who are outside; but it is yours to be judging those who are among you; 13 As for those who are outside, God is their judge. So put away the evil man from among you.

So we are talking her about a man who chases after the 'desires of the flesh'. Not only that but he has joined with someone who by the common laws of that day, was an unheard of practice.

Your example in 1 Corinthians has no relevance to this and stands in stark contrast to the rather more weighty evidence of the other Apostolic teachings. By choosing one highly controversial act on the part of a leader in the Corinthian church, is not a balanced way of understanding the scripture. This was causing great controversy for the church, because it was even shocking for those outside the church for this to be going on. It was bringing the church into disrepute with the non-believers.

We are not talking about two wanton fornicating adults, we are talking about two christians who have through circumstance been through divorce, and now seek to marry another partner having legally divorced their first. We can assume that that either one or both sought every opportunity to redress the problems in their last marriage but found that the damage was irreversible and the relationship irreconcilable. We are talking about marriage here, between two christians of good report. To compare them to the person mentioned in 1 Cor. 5 is a great injustice.

 

[Yitzchak]

While I have heard a little about the gnostic debate of early christianity, I have to admit that most of the past few posts is greek to me ( pardon the pun). The part about not judging eachother harshly. I got that one and was humbled and convicted by it.

Divorce and remarriage is a tough and emotional issue. The emmense hurt of betrayal and the need for forgiveness are obvious but not at all easy to deal with.

 

[Mustaphile]

I'm going to bring up some more points in relation to Romans chapter 6, since this is the pivotal point it would seem.

I am going to include some commentaries on this chapter to bring to fore the issue of santification and how the process of overcoming sin is a continuing process. We will lose battles with sin, but in the end the victory is God's.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=6&verse=1#Ro6_1

Verse 14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This verse brings into view the ability of the Christian to survive inevitable lapses of a sinful nature. If his justification had been such as that available to the Jew in the keeping of the law, his would be a hopeless predicament. Sooner or later, some little sin would lay him low; and, no matter how trivial a lapse, any infraction of law would have been enough to destroy him. But thanks be to God, the new system is in operation. Justified, absolutely, through identity with Christ and being in fact "in him," the Christian's sins are truly banished forever. And what of the inadvertent slip, the occasional misstep, the conduct of one not truly himself? Even that cannot give sin its old place on the throne; "for ye are not under the law, but under grace." The forgiveness available to the child of God "in Christ" is a constant. Thus:

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

"Cleanseth" is present tense active and may be translated as the present participle, and it means that the Christian is being forgiven and justified every moment of his life! Thanks be to God that we are under grace instead of law!

In the past few verses, Paul stressed the sovereignty of the human will and the personal responsibility of the Christian; but if the Christian's endowment consisted only of will and responsibility, he would be in a bad way. Triumph over sin is simply not something which the Christian, alone, can achieve; and this verse shouts the true basis of his triumph. The Christian might lose specific battles to sin, but the war has already been won, not by the Christian but by the Lord. Gone forever are the old hopelessness and helplessness that dogged the steps of them that were under the law; now, for all who will accept it, grace has been provided. The remedy for all the sins ever committed or that ever could be committed has already been given. The Holy Spirit has been promised and will be received by them that obey the gospel (Acts 2:38ff). The Saviour himself is interceding at God's right band for the Christian; and the community of the Lord's children on earth, called the church, are daily praying for and exhorting one another. What a glorious status to have, that of being under grace instead of under law!

"Do this and live," the law commands, But gives me neither feet nor hands. A better word the gospel brings; It bids me fly and gives me wings! - Anonymous

The statement that Christians are not under law was one that Paul dared not leave dangling, but immediately gave it his full attention.

 

[Mustaphile]

I would urge the participants in this thread to develop a better understanding of Romans, which is one of the most detailed explanations by the Apostle Paul of the process of faith in Christ, giving us grace, which brings us out of condemnation from sin and allows us to go through a process of sanctification (being made holy and righteous). This sanctification is made possible by the continous daily washing away of our sins by the blood of Jesus. Although we may battle in our christian life with sin, with our hearts set on God and the indwelling of Holy Spirit, we are daily transformed to be acceptable to God. This sanctification continues throughout our lives, and with our continued faith in Jesus we will have the victory. Paul assures us very strongly that this is so.

So when we come to the issue of divorce and marriage and or remarriage after divorce, it is true that we may be tempted to turn away and once more be a servant of the flesh, rather than a servant of righteousness, on a daily basis we are being washed of those sins and as we steadfastly keep our hearts turned towards God, we can be assured of our salvation and inheritance in His kingdom.

It is wrong to claim that by doing so, we are becoming servants to the flesh from that moment on. Each sin that we do as we go through our christian walk falls under God's grace. We must caution people against becoming once more entangled in sin in such a manner that they are no longer having their hearts set on God. This is true, but when a couple has reached a point of not being able to overcome their flesh desires to serve sin, the we must build them up and encourage them not lose heart, but keep their eyes God and continue push on. If someone who has been divorced seeks another partner and this partnership is going to be pursued in an appropriately righteous manner giving the glory to God, and both seeking serve righteousness in this new relationship, then it's clearly within Paul's teaching of grace, and justification by grace for them to do so. Marriage is the appropriate place for male and female to have a relationship. We should not be forcing believers to stay outside marriage and be tempted by the flesh to fall into fornication, or fall away from the church completely because or church intransigence on this issue. When people come to the point of divorce, quite often the problems started a long time before they came to that decision. If we really want to deal with divorce then we need to deal with the issues that that lead to it, not the symptom of that issue, divorce itself. It is lack of communication in marriage, temptations of the flesh and many others that I could elaborate on. These are the real issues and the why they are occuring it that people do not have a real understanding of what they are entering into in the first place.

If someone was a continous sinner in their daily lives, and at nearly all opportunities chose to serve sin, rather than righteousness, then it would be clear that they were falling into the trap that Paul speaks of in Romans 6. I put to you that this is NOT the case for two people seeking to marry in righteousness and that any attempt to put them once more under law is in fact contrary to the teaching of grace in Romans. Taking Romans 6 out of context to bring people under condemnation of sin, for remarriage after divorce is contrary to the entire doctrine Paul attempted to explain to us in great detail in Romans.

I would respectfully ask those who are seeking to bring people into condemnation who are clearly seeking righteousness to explain how their doctrines differ in terms of the process of sanctification so that it can be clearly seen where the differences of opinion lie.

Here are some links to sanctification explained:-

http://www.wgm.org/cms/AboutUs/Default.asp?did=220&pid=244
http://www.biblerevelations.org/just&faith/justification_sanctification.htm

What troubles me mostly is the thread in another forum in which people are coming and asking questions that deserved good answers. Not half an answer. What we need to be concentrating on is preaching the FULL gospel, not HALF a gospel. Pointing out peoples individual sins is not allowing them to continue in grace and be untroubled by condemnation in sin, which undermines peoples faith in the promise of Jesus. If we are going to offer people advice on something then that advice needs to contain the whole truth of the Gospel.

 

[Yitzchak]

I would urge the participants in this thread to develop a better understanding of Romans, which is one of the most detailed explanations by the Apostle Paul of the process of faith in Christ, giving us grace, which brings us out of condemnation from sin and allows us to go through a process of sanctification (being made holy and righteous). This sanctification is made possible by the continous daily washing away of our sins by the blood of Jesus. Although we may battle in our christian life with sin, with our hearts set on God and the indwelling of Holy Spirit, we are daily transformed to be acceptable to God. This sanctification continues throughout our lives, and with our continued faith in Jesus we will have the victory. Paul assures us very strongly that this is so.

So when we come to the issue of divorce and marriage and or remarriage after divorce, it is true that we may be tempted to turn away and once more be a servant of the flesh, rather than a servant of righteousness, on a daily basis we are being washed of those sins and as we steadfastly keep our hearts turned towards God, we can be assured of our salvation and inheritance in His kingdom.

It is wrong to claim that by doing so, we are becoming servants to the flesh from that moment on. Each sin that we do as we go through our christian walk falls under God's grace. We must caution people against becoming once more entangled in sin in such a manner that they are no longer having their hearts set on God. This is true, but when a couple has reached a point of not being able to overcome their flesh desires to serve sin, the we must build them up and encourage them not lose heart, but keep their eyes God and continue push on. If someone who has been divorced seeks another partner and this partnership is going to be pursued in an appropriately righteous manner giving the glory to God, and both seeking serve righteousness in this new relationship, then it's clearly within Paul's teaching of grace, and justification by grace for them to do so. Marriage is the appropriate place for male and female to have a relationship. We should not be forcing believers to stay outside marriage and be tempted by the flesh to fall into fornication, or fall away from the church completely because or church intransigence on this issue. When people come to the point of divorce, quite often the problems started a long time before they came to that decision. If we really want to deal with divorce then we need to deal with the issues that that lead to it, not the symptom of that issue, divorce itself. It is lack of communication in marriage, temptations of the flesh and many others that I could elaborate on. These are the real issues and the why they are occuring it that people do not have a real understanding of what they are entering into in the first place.

If someone was a continous sinner in their daily lives, and at nearly all opportunities chose to serve sin, rather than righteousness, then it would be clear that they were falling into the trap that Paul speaks of in Romans 6. I put to you that this is NOT the case for two people seeking to marry in righteousness and that any attempt to put them once more under law is in fact contrary to the teaching of grace in Romans. Taking Romans 6 out of context to bring people under condemnation of sin, for remarriage after divorce is contrary to the entire doctrine Paul attempted to explain to us in great detail in Romans.

I would respectfully ask those who are seeking to bring people into condemnation who are clearly seeking righteousness to explain how their doctrines differ in terms of the process of sanctification so that it can be clearly seen where the differences of opinion lie.

Here are some links to sanctification explained:-

http://www.wgm.org/cms/AboutUs/Default.asp?did=220&pid=244
http://www.biblerevelations.org/just&faith/justification_sanctification.htm

What troubles me mostly is the thread in another forum in which people are coming and asking questions that deserved good answers. Not half an answer. What we need to be concentrating on is preaching the FULL gospel, not HALF a gospel. Pointing out peoples individual sins is not allowing them to continue in grace and be untroubled by condemnation in sin, which undermines peoples faith in the promise of Jesus. If we are going to offer people advice on something then that advice needs to contain the whole truth of the Gospel.

I found this post extremely helpful.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Heartman, you have done a lot of study in ancient texts. As I've been thinking about this some more, I have been wondering about the word douloo (passive perfect dedoulontai) in 1 Corinthians 7:15.

Do you know if this word was used by any Hellenistic Jews as a Greek synonym for the Hebrew agan (better known in Jewish Halacha law in its passive participle form agunah)?

I have wondered about the nuance of this word in context, other than simply "enslaved."

[This is finals week for me. I'm taking a break right now, but don't expect me to be around much. I'll check back to see if you have any info over the weekend or next week.]

 

[Heartman]

Dear friends,

I wish I could express the way my heart aches to express both the love and concern that motivates me to stand opposed to the practice of divorce and remarriage. Lately the nature of God Himself is becoming the focus of attention. Is Jesus a God that enforces His own commands, or does He modify them to accommodate our personal circumstances and preferences? It has to do with the nature of God himself as revealed in the Scriptures, and the view that we take about ourselves individually.

My own words fail me tonight. So I hope you will forgive me if I quote best selling Baptist author Dr. Larry Crabb in his 2001 book "Shattered Dreams. Please don't just skim over this as more "divorce and remarriage" stuff that I have cut and pasted. By the way, the stuff I "cut and paste," unless I name someone else by name, is my own. This however is not not about divorce and remarriage, but about the nature of God, relevant to the latest part of this discussion.

Please very carefully read what Dr. Crabb says about what we think about God, and what we think about ourselves:

Quote:
"The evangelical church has made a serious mistake. For years we’ve presented Christianity as little more that a means of escaping hell. Knowing Jesus has been reduced to a one time decision that guarantees the chance to live in a perfect, pain free world forever. Christianity is about going to heaven, but that’s not the center of Jesus’ kindness to us. Nor is it the opportunity to lead fulfilled, meaningful lives now. Returning to our Maker’s manual and following Biblical principles to make our marriages work and our kids turn out well and our bank accounts comfortably bulge is not God’s plan for our lives. We’ve shrunk Christianity into a neat little package full of blessings that, if opened, will empower us to feel good now and feel even better in Heaven.

Question 1. How do you think about God?
The Bible reveals God as absolutely holy. The angels who continually surround Him cry out, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty."

Paul introduces God to us in Romans as a Holy God who is passionately furious at all that is unholy. His presentation of the good news of the gospel starts with bad news for us. God is a God of vengeance, of wrath, of retribution. He will not allow the guilty to remain unpunished. The picture is not one of a nice man; He is not presented as a warm and loving father who likes His children and who sees to it that they all have a good time.

Our Christian culture has weakened our understanding of the Holiness of God by introducing too soon the idea of grace. We now talk about grace in a way that changes our view of God from Holy to paternal, from justifiably enraged to strict but understanding.

Very few Christians today see God as an irate judge who violently hates our sin. He is now a bit more flexible, more tolerant, still insistent that we measure up to at least some of His standards, but gracious when we don't.

I remember talking to a young married man who said, "I know I'm wrong to continue my affair, but you're wrong to insist I end it. God doesn't want me to continue it, but I know He'll forgive me. I sense only judgment from you. God is a God of grace."

God means for us to obey His rules, we say, but if we don't (and no one does of course, not completely), He's really quite understanding. That's our view of grace. It's what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls cheap grace. It develops when we talk about grace before we tremble at God's holiness.

That's our first mistake in answering the question "What do I think about God? We reduce the Holy God of passionate wrath to a fatherly God with strict standards. And we do it in the name of grace.

But we're still uncomfortable with the idea of standards. It restricts our freedom; it denies us the chance to be ourselves, to express who we really are. So we dismiss God's standards by attacking them as holdovers from legalism. God is the God of liberty. We're told to stand fast in the freedom Christ provides.

That freedom, we say, consists in our opportunity to find ourselves and become whole persons by following God's wise council, by listening to our inner voice. In His kindness, God has given us a lot of ideas about how to live. If we listen to them and practice them, we'll enjoy life as it was meant to be enjoyed. Things will go well for us. We'll feel good about ourselves and how our lives are turning out. God has now become the helpful God of useful principles...

Who is God, the God we desire to know?
God is...
The Holy God of Passionate Wrath
(But we've weakened this view of Him by introducing grace too soon.)

God has now become...
A Fatherly God of Strict Standards.
(But we've dismissed his standards in our misguided campaign against legalism.)

So we've reduced God further to...
A Helpful God of Useful Principles
(and now we spend our religious energy seeking to know the principles a helpful God provides for handling our lives, principles that will make our lives better. The result is that we never encounter God.)

Question 2. What do you think about yourself?

"It takes two for an encounter to happen. God has become useful, full of suggestions about how we should live. Who have we become?
If you are looking for a quick boost to your self esteem, the Bible is not a good book to read. They reveal us as hopelessly arrogant, foolish enough to think that we’re the point of things, that our happiness, our sense of well-being, matters more than anything else.

We hear that assessment and agree with it, wondering exactly what the problem is. Is the Bible saying we’re wrong to look out for ourselves? Why would God get upset with us for making it a priority to have a good life? We believe self-interest is a virtue, a reasonable commitment useful for guiding our lives. God tells us it’s the essence of evil. It utterly contradicts and opposes reality. God is the point. We are not. He gets the glory. We don’t.

Our evil demand – that our sense of well being be honored above God’s glory – deserves punishment. It rouses God’s wrath. He declares us guilty, worthy of eternal separation from the source of everything good. We want our own way. In his justice, God lets us have it. As Dorothy Sayer puts it, hell is the enjoyment of our own way forever. What we thought would bring us joy does exactly the opposite. Hell is an existence of eternal misery. And the Bible declares that’s exactly what we deserve.

In the modern evangelical church, I wonder if anyone really believes that. Do I believe that apart from Jesus’ blood shed for me it would be fair if God sent me to a place where I would be miserable forever? …In our Christian culture, we’ve weakened our understanding of personal sin by talking too soon and too much about our longings and our needs. We want to feel good about ourselves, we long for enjoyable relationships, we desire effective and recognized ministries. We become the point and see nothing really wrong with it.

Because we focus more on our longings than our evil, we see ourselves not as hopelessly arrogant, worthy of eternal misery, but as scoldably selfish, deserving perhaps a slap on the wrist. Listen to how we talk. “Yes, you’re right Pastor. I yelled at my wife. That was wrong. Sure, go ahead, confront me. I made a mistake. What? You want to discipline me in front of the elders” That’s ridiculous!” No more do we see ourselves as hopelessly arrogant. We’ve weakened our view of sin by centering on what we long for to the point where, at worst, we see ourselves as deserving only a scolding.

We take it one step further. We may admit that our minor offenses warrant a reprimand, but we really believe that if someone knew what we’ve been through and the pain we feel, the scolding would give way to a sympathetic hug. We struggle and make mistakes, but given our hurt, given how poorly the people in our lives have responded to our longings, our struggles are quite understandable. If God loves us, He really ought to help.

Let me complete the sketch.

Question 1: Who is God, the God we desire to know?

He is:
THE HOLY GOD OF PASSIONATE WRATH
Has been weakened, by introducing grace to soon, into…
THE FATHERLY GOD OF STRICT STANDARDS,
Whose standards we’ve dismissed by rejecting them
As impositionally legalistic, so that God now becomes…
THE HELPFUL GOD OF USEFUL PRINCIPLES. [B/]

Question 2: Who are we, As People Longing to Enjoy God?

We are:
ARROGANT PEOPLE WHO DESERVE ETERNAL MISERY,
Whose awareness of that arrogance is weakened by our
Talking too soon and too much about our longings, until
We become merely…
SCOLDABLE SELFISH PEOPLE WHO REALLY OUGHT TO DO BETTER
A view of ourselves we then dismiss as insensitive to our
Deep hurt, so we come to see ourselves as…
UNDERSTANDABLE STRUGGLERS WHO DESERVE TO BE UNDERSTOOD AND HELPED.

Several points can be made from this sketch.

1. When Understandable strugglers meet a helpful God of useful principles, they use Him to make their lives more comfortable. They never encounter God as their greatest pleasure. They never enter into an other-centered community of broken people, and they never experience a deep change in their interior being. Their experience of God is shallow. They become spiritual narcissists, nutty people who live only to feel better.

2. When scoldably selfish people meet a fatherly God of strict standards, their encounter with God is never intimate. It breeds resentment and distance. They too never encounter God as their greatest pleasure. Their approach to community becomes appropriate and well mannered, and they turn into self righteous Pharisees who congratulate themselves on being better than others. They become spiritual hypocrites, nutty people who think of themselves as quite mature.

3. But when arrogant people who know they deserve eternal misery tremble before a Holy God of passionate wrath, they discover grace. They encounter the depths of God’s kindness and love they find nowhere else. They fall to their knees and worship Christ as their Lord and Savior and as their truest friend. They know they don’t deserve a hug, no matter how badly they’re hurting; but they get an eternal one anyway. That’s the grace that takes their breath away.

They enter into the community of broken, forgiven people who are hungry for all of God they can get. Nothing stands in their way – Not shame, not the fear of revealing too much, not a desire to be well thought of. With abandon they seek God, alone, and in the company of like-minded others. They discover that they actually want to obey God." -UnQuote

Our view of God, and our view of ourselves determine how we live for Christ.

Heartman

 

[maxim]

I wonder why this question has puzzled millions. It's plain and simple. Jesus said that no one should divorce his wife for any reason except for fornication. He repeated the same thing when some asked him why Moses had approved of it and also when his own disciples needed a further explanation. Even in Malachi it is written that "God hates divorce". But what happens when a person divorces? It is exactly as what happens when a person sins? Can a divorced person ask for forgiveness? Surely yes. Just as a sin could be forgiven, divorce also will be forgiven. Can a divorced person remarry? If a divorced person has been forgiven already, why can he not remarry? Can a person divorce just because he will be forgiven? It is exactly as asking can a person sin just because he will be forgiven? divorce is just another sin included in the list of all other sins. So why should divorce have another meaning excluded from the list of sins? If you think that divorce is not permitted and remarrying is not permitted, it is like saying sin is not permitted and reconciliation with God is not permitted. Of course, it is not permitted but if you do fall into that error, God always forgives. This does not mean that you should test God. Be far from it.

Now, how can you not get divorced when all the elements point to the evidence of not being able to stay together? Very simple. Is God omnipotent? If you say yes, God can even heal your marriage. If you say that divorce is the only answer to the current crisis in your life, you are indirectly saying that God is not omnipotent. It just boils down to that point.