Divorce then Remarriage?

[Gilligan]

Would like to understand better whether a person can be divorced and the remarry

 

[Crazy Liz]

There actually are a few other threads where this question is currently being discussed, or has been discussed lately. I haven't participated in them, but I have noticed them. I've also discussed the issue previously with several of the participants in these threads.

I am posting here to suggest you consider refining your question. "Whether a person can be divorced and the remarry," is a question Christians have been arguing about for centuries.

IMO, this is partly because some interpret "can" as a question of possibility. Can it really happen? Is it possible? When a divorced person claims to have remarried, is this a fact, or a fiction, lie, or deception?"

Others interpret the same words to mean, "Does God permit or approve of it?" "Is it condemned or disapproved?" -- which questions assume it is possible, but probably bad.

The Western Churches have often taken the position that it is impossible, while the Eastern Churches and some protestants take the position that it is possible, but not ideal. I failure to recognize and deal with this difference of opinion often prevents Christians from dealing with the practical issues that face us surrounding this issue. If some say a remarriage is not real, while others say it is real, our inability to deal with this conflict leads us to put on blinders and ignore the problem.

OK. Off my soapbox. I do encourage you to consider what you mean by "can," and clarify your question before assuming you really understand anyone's answer.

 

[Heartman]

There actually are a few other threads where this question is currently being discussed, or has been discussed lately. I haven't participated in them, but I have noticed them. I've also discussed the issue previously with several of the participants in these threads.

I am posting here to suggest you consider refining your question. "Whether a person can be divorced and the remarry," is a question Christians have been arguing about for centuries.

IMO, this is partly because some interpret "can" as a question of possibility. Can it really happen? Is it possible? When a divorced person claims to have remarried, is this a fact, or a fiction, lie, or deception?"

Others interpret the same words to mean, "Does God permit or approve of it?" "Is it condemned or disapproved?" -- which questions assume it is possible, but probably bad.

The Western Churches have often taken the position that it is impossible, while the Eastern Churches and some protestants take the position that it is possible, but not ideal. I failure to recognize and deal with this difference of opinion often prevents Christians from dealing with the practical issues that face us surrounding this issue. If some say a remarriage is not real, while others say it is real, our inability to deal with this conflict leads us to put on blinders and ignore the problem.

OK. Off my soapbox. I do encourage you to consider what you mean by "can," and clarify your question before assuming you really understand anyone's answer.

Good point Crazy Liz! And in the other respects, to quote from an old song: ...and the Beat goes on, and the beat goes on and on and on...

Heartman

 

[Crazy Liz]

Hey, Gilligan! Heartman's a good guy. After many, many arguments, we have grown to respect each other, although we disagree on the ontological question - i.e. the meaning of "can" in your question. In practical matters, I think we largely (though not totally) agree. But the ontological problem is still troublesome.

 

[harmmony]

Hi Gilligan

For some heated discussions on this topic elsewhere on this forum please just follow the links. I'm not sure if you will find it all very helpful if you are really unsure about this issue. I think it's one of those where you and God have to come to your own conclusions about it. But have a read you might find something that persuades you. I think that each situation has to taken on it's own, I don't think a sweeping generalisation about whether it's right or wrong is very helpful to anybody.

http://www.christianforums.com/t92049

http://www.christianforums.com/t93926

http://www.christianforums.com/t93451

 

[Gilligan]

I think you are right I need to reword my question. Can anyone teach me if it is ok in God's eyes to remarry. If so under what circumstances would the person be able to remarry and not be in sin?

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think you are right I need to reword my question. Can anyone teach me if it is ok in God's eyes to remarry. If so under what circumstances would the person be able to remarry and not be in sin?

These are difficult questions because, as I read the NT, it specifically teaches against asking the question in this way. Is it "ok in God's eyes to remarry?" is almost precisely the question Jesus refused to answer in Matthew 19. Jesus' response is more an objection to the "Is it OK?" way the question was framed than a substantive answer to it.

I think what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 7 is that it is better not to remarry (or even marry in the first place), if possible. If you consider missing the ideal to be sin, that would be your answer, although Paul says in that chapter that if someone wants to marry a virgin, he does not sin. I would recommend you read the entire book of 1 Corinthians in one sitting, think about it, then do it again in a different version a few days later. I think you will see that a lot of 1 Corinthians involves Paul demonstrating thinking processes to be used to deal with difficult or controversial issues. Asking the question in the terms you have stated it ("under what circumstances would the person be able to remarry and not be in sin?") is actually not part of this process at all.

I would also recommend you read Matthew 16-20. Don't restrict yourself to ch. 19, because the context is important. Paul apparently refers to ch. 19 in 1 Corinthians 7, he also seems to be referring to the church's power to "bind and loose," described in Mt. 18, which is related to the "keys" in Mt. 16. I think these are the key scriptures that are helpful in deciding the best thing to do in a particular case that can't be resolved in an ideal way (i.e., in the case of marriage, not marrying at all or staying with your first spouse). I think both Matthew and 1 Corinthians argue that this is not just an individual decision-making process, but that the church should be involved in it.

 

[Mustaphile]

Hey, Gilligan! Heartman's a good guy. After many, many arguments, we have grown to respect each other, although we disagree on the ontological question - i.e. the meaning of "can" in your question. In practical matters, I think we largely (though not totally) agree. But the ontological problem is still troublesome.

I won't disagree with your assesment of Heartman.

He seems faithful in his service to the Lord.

-edit-

I think both Matthew and 1 Corinthians argue that this is not just an individual decision-making process, but that the church should be involved in it.

This statement interests me because I often look at the Gospels as speaking to the individual, whereas the other books of the New Testament to my way of looking at it, talk about the issues the Church faced as it became organised. I have contemplated whether many of things spoken about by Paul were to bring some order to the Church as different issues arose.

He seemed to be striving to get the first churches to present a common face of Christianity to the world. Many of the churches were digressing down their own paths and interpretations. This has led me to believe that some issues to do with the individual were subordinated in the context of an organised church.

As time has moved on (to the present day) the differences of opinion have still arisen. It was perhaps an early strength of the church that it took great pains to all present the same message. I am still not totally convinced that all his messages apply to the individual however.

Reading Matthew 19 my attention was drawn to these verses...

Matthew 19:7
They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY ?"

Matthew 19:8
He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.

Matthew 19:9
"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Matthew 19:10
The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

Matthew 19:11
But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

Matthew 19:12
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

I'll go on to read your other suggestions before commenting further, but the highlighted section speaks volumes to me of Christ's intentions.

Further from your reading suggestions....

Matthew 16:5
And when the disciples came to the other side they had not taken thought to get bread.

Matthew 16:6
And Jesus said to them, Take care to have nothing to do with the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Matthew 16:7
And they were reasoning among themselves, saying, We took no bread.

Matthew 16:8
And Jesus, seeing it, said, O you of little faith, why are you reasoning among yourselves, because you have no bread?

Matthew 16:9
Do you still not see, or keep in mind the five cakes of bread of the five thousand, and the number of baskets you took up?

Matthew 16:10
Or the seven cakes of bread of the four thousand, and the number of baskets you took up?

Matthew 16:11
How is it that you do not see that I was not talking to you about bread, but about keeping away from the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees?

Matthew 16:12
Then they saw that it was not the leaven of bread which he had in mind, but the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

My comments on this section is how Jesus was always at odds with with the Pharisees and Sadducees. The were constantly reminding him of the law and saying that he had broken the law. Each time Jesus spoke of their error either by posing questions to them or through parables. What this expresses to me is that no law can cover all situations. Times will arise when exceptions can be made without there being any sin involved.


Chapter 18 is a gem of a chapter.

What is your interpretation of the binding and loosing in heaven and earth?

Do you feel this means that the Church can make special conditions on an individual basis and Jesus will honor that decision in heaven?

The story of the man forgiven for his debt who failed to forgive someone else for their debt is relevant too.

You did mention ,Crazy Liz, that you had some thoughts on the Holy Spirit not offering guidance on an individual basis, but that the Holy Spirit must be interepreted in a context of common interpretation of the Church, do I understand you correctly?

I imagine that is contained in the sections I have not yet read.

I will say that as I have read through this forum, I have been seeking to understand what divides the Church so much. I do feel that there is a certain balance going on in the competing interpretations by the liberal christians vs the conservative christians. Both seem to act as a check and balance against each other and I am appreciating the chance to have this common fellowship via the internet. Through this forum I am exposed to much more varied views than if I was confined to one church teaching along a fairly dogmatic line thinking.

I'll come back to this thread later and see who else has decided to comment. I still have some areas to cover in your suggested readings.

 

[Crazy Liz]

This statement interests me because I often look at the Gospels as speaking to the individual, whereas the other books of the New Testament to my way of looking at it, talk about the issues the Church faced as it became organised. I have contemplated whether many of things spoken about by Paul were to bring some order to the Church as different issues arose.

Perhaps this is some of my cultural and ecclesial background showing. I grew up in a church community that was more group-oriented and less individualistic than most Americans (probably the most individualistic culture in the world, as Toqueville observed over a century ago). One of the principles of the Anabaptist movement in Europe that did not cross the English Channel to be adopted by the Baptists was the idea that the Bible, sole authority for life and faith, is not a matter of individual interpretation, but that the whole church interprets it together. We may all have insights from the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit in our brothers and sisters confirms and/or corrects us. I still believe this is an important principle. I think Jesus, in the chapters of Matthew and John I cited, set this up.

While the gospel calls us individually to follow Jesus, we do not follow Jesus as individuals alone, but together with our brothers and sisters.

My comments on this section is how Jesus was always at odds with with the Pharisees and Sadducees. The were constantly reminding him of the law and saying that he had broken the law. Each time Jesus spoke of their error either by posing questions to them or through parables. What this expresses to me is that no law can cover all situations. Times will arise when exceptions can be made without there being any sin involved.

I can credit Bonhoeffer with my slight difference from this view. Bonhoeffer stressed that God justifies the sinner, not the sin. Although he believed joining the conspiracy to remove Hitler from power was the most ethically responsible action available, he never thought that he could do this without any sin involved. He expected to incur guilt, but also trusted Jesus to enter a judgment of "no condemnation" on the last day - not because his sin was "OK," but because God, by grace, justifies sinners.

Chapter 18 is a gem of a chapter.

What is your interpretation of the binding and loosing in heaven and earth?

Do you feel this means that the Church can make special conditions on an individual basis and Jesus will honor that decision in heaven?

Combining these two aspects of my theology, I would say exactly that. There are some situations (like those described by Bonhoeffer) in which there truly are no options available that would not involve some kind of sin or guilt. Often past sins can't be undone, and things can't be made right again. In these situations (the plight of the divorced Christian who does not possess the gift of celibacy, for example) the Church can bind and loose, including loosing one from a marriage bond.

The story of the man forgiven for his debt who failed to forgive someone else for their debt is relevant too.

Definitely.

You did mention ,Crazy Liz, that you had some thoughts on the Holy Spirit not offering guidance on an individual basis, but that the Holy Spirit must be interepreted in a context of common interpretation of the Church, do I understand you correctly?

Not exactly. I did not say the Holy Spirit does not give guidance to individuals, but that the Holy Spirit's guidance given to brothers and sisters is to be respected, also. When Jesus said the Spirit of Truth would lead the disciples into all truth, I think Jesus mainly meant this in a collective sense, but this does not deny individual guidance.

I will say that as I have read through this forum, I have been seeking to understand what divides the Church so much. I do feel that there is a certain balance going on in the competing interpretations by the liberal christians vs the conservative christians. Both seem to act as a check and balance against each other and I am appreciating the chance to have this common fellowship via the internet. Through this forum I am exposed to much more varied views than if I was confined to one church teaching along a fairly dogmatic line thinking.

I hear ya, brother!

 

[Mustaphile]

I have been going over your reading suggestions again today. I'll post up the scriptures that particularly stood out to me.

John 13:34-35

I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another. By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another

Here we have Jesus's commandment to love one another and that we all will know his disciples if we have love toward one another. This is the ideal we must all strive for. We constantly battle with this ideal, the flesh battles with the spirit. If we were under law we would be condemned by our failures, but under Grace we can have victory through faith in Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice.

John 14:15-17

15If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever, 17the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

Lets now look at another example of how the Pharisees attempt to lure Jesus into making statements against the law.

Matthew 19:3-12

3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, " 5"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? " 6"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. " 7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8He saith unto them, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. " 9"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

" 10His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. 11But he said unto them, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. " 12"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mothers womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heavens sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

If we look at Jesus reaction to all the statements by the Pharisees and Saducees, you will see that he always turns the question back on them. My interpretation of this is that Jesus does not want people to start thinking that the laws are not giving some general direction in which we must earnestly attempt to attain, but we must also consider that no-one is really capable of attaining this perfection in all the things. Everyone strives to the best of their ability and we should not look down upon the least of God's children because their struggle is more difficult than our own. For some the need of companionship is strong and I don't feel it is God's intention that we should bear a burden greater than we are able to deal with and for some the burden is to great to struggle alone. God knows the intentions of heart. Man can only assume he knows as he is not able to read the hearts of others. If man says he knows the hearts of others he deceives himself, for that is God's domain. I will qualify this so as not to cause affront to my brothers and sisters. We can perceive the hearts of others through spiritual discernment, but the discernment comes from God, not from man.

If two people want to get married in which one or the other has been divorced and that marriage is in the spirit of love then we must accept that only God knows what the real intentions of the hearts are. I assume here we are talking about two believers. If the Spirit is dwelling within them, then we will know them by the outward expression of that spirit. God will reveal their intentions through his Spirit. If the Holy Spirit lives inside of them and manifests itself outwardly in their lives, who are we to doubt that God's grace is not actively covering them for past sin?

With regard to repentance, I feel that you can't keep condemning a person over and over for the one act of marriage. Sin with regards to commiting adultery by re-marriage is a single sin. The act of marrying that person. Once the marriage is in place it is only creating a further sin to ask them to then get divorced. When someone murders someone, they can seek God's forgiveness for that sin and seek to never murder again, but the person who is murdered is still dead. We can't condemn that person on a daily basis if they have sought forgiveness. If they murder again then there is an issue. I feel likewise when someone commits the sin of entering into an adulterous marriage, we cannot condemn them on a daily basis for the one act of marriage. If they continue to divorce and marry again, then God will have issue with that behaviour. What God's judgement on these issues will be is not for us to decide, but we can offer guidance in the spirit of love.

These are my thoughts for now. God has given us principles now, not laws. No of us can live up to the law of God, nor can we at all times live up to the laws of man. We desperately need God's grace to cover us with regards to God's law, as this is a matter of life and death on an eternal basis.

What Crazy Liz has pointed out is that we have been given the power as believers to resolve these issues on an individual basis and within the framework of christian fellowship, and we should seek to do so in the spirit of love, a commandment of Jesus that we love one another. We must seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in both our personal lives and in fellowship with our christian brothers and sisters. We should feel confident that Jesus has told us this is so and trust that he knows what he is talking about. Further to this point, we should seek to foster spiritual discernment so as we can tell in what spirit our brothers and sisters are speaking to us in. On all sides it must be in the spirit of love, as commanded by Jesus Christ himself.

 

[Heartman]

"If two people want to get married in which one or the other has been divorced and that marriage is in the spirit of love then we must accept that only God knows what the real intentions of the hearts are. I assume here we are talking about two believers. If the Spirit is dwelling within them, then we will know them by the outward expression of that spirit. God will reveal their intentions through his Spirit. If the Holy Spirit lives inside of them and manifests itself outwardly in their lives, who are we to doubt that God's grace is not actively covering them for past sin?

Dear Mustaphile (what does that mean anyway? )

The Bible gives principles, but it also give specific commands on specific subjects. Divorce and remarriage is specifically refused. According to Jesus, obeying His specific laws accomplishes His law of Love. Over and over again, He gave principles, studded with examples of specific obedience. The Holy Spirit has already given His counsel on divorce and remarriage in writing. Any counsel contrary to the Word is not from Him.

The instructions are not just ideals, but are specific commands. The pages of the New Testament are loaded with this understanding. There is not a balance to be had between competing opinions. Two sides of debate where one seeks to obey the Word in Spirit, and in truth, can not be balanced with one that wants to disobey the Word in Spirit and in Truth. They are not the same, not two sides of the same coin, not two colors of the same object. They are opposites, right and wrong, good and evil, blessed and cursed.One is to be cherished, the other destroyed.

The Gospel is a sword that separates right from wrong, not a knitting needle that sows them together. Christians are required to rightly divide the Word of God. In heaven individuals will face the bar of God, churchs as a group will not. The church can make decisions that conform to the rightly divided Word of God but it does not have the binding and loosing power to set aside God's specific commands. Never had, and never will. Indulgences to sin are not signed by God. Administering the gospel is one thing, that is its calling. But God retains the constitution to Himself. Only the Word of God has the authority upon which decisions are made. He will not sanction or sanctify what he has condemned, or comdemn what He has sanctified.

In Christ,

Heartman

 

[Heartman]

Sorry, double post (I had hit the quote button instead of the edit)
Heartman

 

[Heartman]

Sorry once again! I did the same thing again! It is a good thing I am not flying a 747 instead of by the the seat of my pants!

Heartman

 

[Mustaphile]

The Holy Spirit has already given His counsel on divorce and remarriage in writing. Any counsel contrary to the Word is not from Him.

Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is active anymore in offering guidance as the Church encounters new challenges?

What are your thoughts on women teaching in the church?

Do you feel women should not speak in church?

Should they wear head coverings?

Are you applying a literal interpretation in every aspect of
the Bible?

Or do you look for the context in which things are written in?

Are you looking deeper for reasons of why certain things were written?

Jesus many times avoided making direct statements about interpretations of the law. Do you not see why he did so?

BTW, Mustaphile does not mean anything in particular. The internet is a mixed blessing as far as communication goes. I am feeling the weight of it's inadequacies today. It lacks the nuances and fluidity I require to convey my true feelings.

I feel that some of your posts have come across in the spirit of judgement and condemnation and may not be effectively communicating your message. Just as I am struggling right now with effectively relating my concerns...hehehe...

I might come back to this later.

 

[Heartman]

Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is active anymore in offering guidance as the Church encounters new challenges?

What are your thoughts on women teaching in the church?

Do you feel women should not speak in church?

Should they wear head coverings?

Are you applying a literal interpretation in every aspect of
the Bible?

Or do you look for the context in which things are written in?

Are you looking deeper for reasons of why certain things were written?

Jesus many times avoided making direct statements about interpretations of the law. Do you not see why he did so?

BTW, Mustaphile does not mean anything in particular. The internet is a mixed blessing as far as communication goes. I am feeling the weight of it's inadequacies today. It lacks the nuances and fluidity I require to convey my true feelings.

I feel that some of your posts have come across in the spirit of judgement and condemnation and may not be effectively communicating your message. Just as I am struggling right now with effectively relating my concerns...hehehe...

I might come back to this later.

Hello Mustaphile,

I will try to give my opinions, where I have any, clearly and briefly on the questions you asked"

Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is active anymore in offering guidance as the Church encounters new challenges?

I most certainly do. But He is not adding to the canon of Scripture, nor does He ever contradict His Word. What He does do is illuminate understanding of the Word of God.

What are your thoughts on women teaching in the church?

When someone asks me questions like that, I ussually mumble something incoherant and wait for someone else that has a stong opinion to answer. This is not an evasive answer, it's the truth.

Do you feel women should not speak in church?

mumble mumble

Should they wear head coverings?

no

Are you applying a literal interpretation in every aspect of
the Bible?

Yes where context allows. When the context of the Scripture teaches principles or specific commands yes. When there appears to be a purely localized, time constrained, or group specific limitations, not necessarily. Good exegesis and sound hermeneutics are always required to avoid error.

Or do you look for the context in which things are written in?

Always

Are you looking deeper for reasons of why certain things were written?

Certainly

Jesus many times avoided making direct statements about interpretations of the law. Do you not see why he did so?

This is essentially an untrue statement. His entire life and everything He taught was both an illumination on, and the fulfillment of the law. His commands exceed the requirements of the law, and He often commented, modified and more than once abrogated parts of it.

BTW, Mustaphile does not mean anything in particular. The internet is a mixed blessing as far as communication goes. I am feeling the weight of it's inadequacies today. It lacks the nuances and fluidity I require to convey my true feelings.

It is at best a difficult medium of communication. When you consider how much of our communication skills rely on facial and body language, subtle variations in tone and manner of speech, it is hard not to be misunderstood. Even face to face most of us fail at always communicating what we really mean. By the way,- Good News! -the Holy Spirit does that for those who know Him in regard to His Word.

I feel that some of your posts have come across in the spirit of judgement and condemnation and may not be effectively communicating your message. Just as I am struggling right now with effectively relating my concerns...hehehe...

I am afraid that my own words do not convey the level of concern and urgent appeal to submit to the Word of the Lord and be reconciled to God strong enough. Any time I show irritation,anger or any inadequacy in my delivery, it is my own failing, not His.

God Bless you, you seem to have a kind and compassionate heart,
Heartman

 

[Mustaphile]

God Bless you, you seem to have a kind and compassionate heart,
Heartman

I'll take that as a message from God, from the lips of his servant.

I do understand what spirit you speak in now. I feel it was the conviction that this was placing in my own heart that was causing me to be troubled in spirit. My own flesh wrestling with the spirit so to speak. I have been somewhat isolated in my thoughts for some time and this forum has allowed me to have fellowship with other believers in a new and interesting way. The words in your answers to my questions have definitely spoken to my heart and brought me closer to my Lord.

Praise God for his infinite wisdom in these matters.

I am afraid that my own words do not convey the level of concern and urgent appeal to submit to the Word of the Lord and be reconciled to God strong enough. Any time I show irritation,anger or any inadequacy in my delivery, it is my own failing, not His.

Amen brother. I feel your pain. You pray for me and I'll pray for you and may God's grace and mercy cover us both.

 

[Heartman]

I do understand what spirit you speak in now. I feel it was the conviction that this was placing in my own heart that was causing me to be troubled in spirit. My own flesh wrestling with the spirit so to speak. I have been somewhat isolated in my thoughts for some time and this forum has allowed me to have fellowship with other believers in a new and interesting way.

Dear Mustaphile,

Thank you for those kind and uplifting words. Let me try to explain why I think is so central to our understanding of marriage. There are many opinions as to what is or is not a proper marriage. There are changing legal and cultural definitions that often distort the clear picture God gave us in the Bible. Since God Himself is the author of marriage, only His opinion matters.

Jesus said: “Have you not read…that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,” and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to His wife, and the two will become one flesh?’ “So, they are no longer two, but one. Therefore, what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Matthew 19: 4-6 NIV)

In the last book of the Old Testament the prophet Malachi was addressing the Jewish nation as to what God had to say about how they were ignoring His instructions. Immorality was being openly practiced by His priests and people. Many men had divorced there wives and remarried others. To the Priests and religious leaders he said this:

“For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction – because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty. But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble…” (Malachi 2: 7-8 NIV)

Then God spoke directly to the divorced and remarried:

“Another thing you do: You flood the Lord’s alter with tears. You weep and you wail because He no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, ‘Why?’ It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, although she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant."

"Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are His. And why one? - Because He was seeking Godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit and do not break faith with the wife of your youth."

‘I hate divorce,’ says the Lord God of Israel, “and I hate a man covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the Lord Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

You have wearied the Lord with your words. ‘How have we wearied Him?’ you ask. By saying, ‘All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and He is pleased with them’ or ‘Where is the God of justice?’” (Malachi 2: 13-17 NIV)

From the Word of God we know that a covenant marriage is between a man and a woman who do not have another living spouse. Remarriage by anyone who has another living spouse is forbidden adultery.

This law is for all of mankind whether or not they are Christian. It was so right from the beginning, and will continue right to the end. I hope this helps explain why this is so important. May God bless you.

Heartman

 

[Crazy Liz]

I can't remember whether it was with you or with someone else I once discussed this passage in Malachi vs. Ezra 10, where Ezra commands that foreign wives be divorced and their children sent away. In both these passages, the main point seems to be Jewish wives vs. foreign wives, not first wives vs. second wives. In Malachi, the first wives were Jewish (of the covenant), but in Ezra they were not.

This passage in Malachi is not about divorce and remarriage per se. If so, why didn't this eternal principle apply to the marriages Ezra broke up?

I am also persuaded by the lack of scriptural support for divorcing second spouses. Among the people Jesus and Paul commanded not to divorce were certainly some who had divorced and were presently married to a second spouse. If either of them had had a different command for these individuals, I'm sure they would have said so.

 

[Heartman]

Dear Crazy Liz,

Since you and I have been discussing this for years, and have found much to agree on between us regarding marriage and divorce matters, I don't suppose we will see 100% eye to eye anytime soon. Nevertheless, having "tested the spirit" so many times in each other, I do think we see in large part, heart to heart.

"I can't remember whether it was with you or with someone else I once discussed this passage in Malachi vs. Ezra 10, where Ezra commands that foreign wives be divorced and their children sent away." -quoted from Crazy Liz

Although I have discussed this part of Malachi with many, and have received council from all sides of this issue, I do not think you and I looked at it together before. I could be mistaken. My memory is good, except for all the things I forget.

"In both these passages, the main point seems to be Jewish wives vs. foreign wives, not first wives vs. second wives. In Malachi, the first wives were Jewish (of the covenant), but in Ezra they were not." -quoted from Crazy Liz

A brief survey of what God taught through Malachi may help. Caution: This is my own overview, so it is not intended to be exhaustive, just indicative of Malachi's content for the points of our exchange.

Key: Chapter: Verse(s)-teaching(s)-meaning(s)or lesson(s) to be learned.

1:2-6 - God curses the Edomites - Jacob loved, Esau hated.
Key Verse(s): 1:1: "I have loved you, says the Lord."

1:6-14 - God rejects blemished sacrifices-Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Key Verse(s): 1:10: "Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my alter! I am not pleased with you, says the Lord Almighty, and I will accept no offering from your hands."

2:1-9 - God accuses Priests and prophets with high treason-Official authority and faithfulness are mutually dependant.
Key Verse(s): 2:7,8a,9: "For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instructions - because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty. But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble.......So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law."

2:10-12 - God condemns those who have broken the Law of Moses by marrying foreign wives - God does not sanctify marriages made against His laws.
Key Verse(s): 2:12: "As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the Lord cut him off from the tents of Jacob-even though he brings offerings to the Lord Almighty."

2:13-17: - God hates divorce and declares himself the guarantor of marriage covenants. - God makes marriage His business according to His standards.
Key Verse(s): 2:13-14: "Another thing you do: You flood the lord's alter with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings, or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask. Why? It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant."

3:1-5: - God promises that the "messenger" or Messiah will bring final righteousness and justice. - God always points to Christ, either forward or backward, as His people's redeemer.
Key Verse(s): 2:5: "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers, and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me, says the Lord Almighty."

3:6-12: - God charges Israel of robbing Him by not paying tithes and offerings. - Everything we have and hold is God's and to be given to Him in obedience and praise.
Key Verse(s): 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this: says the Lord Almighty, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of Heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

3:13-18: - God warns against those who do not obey him because there is not an immediate reward - Serve God regardless of happy or sorrowful circumstances, He will reward.
Key Verse(s): 3:18 "And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God, and those who do not."

4:1-6 - God again promises the coming of the Messiah, and final redemption and judgment. - Praise God from whom all blessings flow!
Key verse(s): 4:2,6 "But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like caves released from the stall."......He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

"This passage in Malachi is not about divorce and remarriage per se. If so, why didn't this eternal principle apply to the marriages Ezra broke up?" - quoted from Crazy Liz

On the contrary, Liz, this is very much to do with divorce and remarriage. This teaching follows on the heels of God’s direct reference to marrying outside of the covenant in Chapter 2, verses 10 to 12. In that direct reference to the condemned marriages, He does not support or endorse any such unlawful unions but condemns the unauthorized marriages completely. As demonstrated here, marriages made outside of the law of God, remain outside of the law of God, because they are against the will of God. God does not officiate at wedding ceremonies conducted in contravention of His commands. The Ezra account, and the reference here in Malachi 2:10-12 to it, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Insofar, as the revelation of the nature of God’s relationship to the covenant of marriage is concerned in Malachi 2:13-17, it is in direct opposite contrast to His statements on condemned marriages, immediately preceding it. Even though some of the men probably did indeed divorce their wives to marry foreign ones, this teaching goes far beyond it being directed primarily at them. In Ezra we have the names of those who were found to be in defiance of the racial purity ordinances, and a record of the legal process set up to administer the divorces of the God condemned marriages. According to Nehemiah the vast majority repented, while those who did not were driven off. The Malachi account in 2:10-12 is an underscore and an endorsement of the enforcement proceedings, as well as a judgment against those who defied it, or might partake of such an offence in the future.

Lets look at Malachi 2:13 - 17 again and try and glean understanding of marriage from God's personal viewpoint.

“…You flood the Lord's altar with tears. You weep and wail because He no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, "Why?" It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.”

“Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are His. And why one? Because He is seeking Godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and I hate a man covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the Lord Almighty. "So guard yourself in your spirit and do not break faith." (NIV)

The major points that can be derived from this illuminating revelation of marriage from God's viewpoint, in His own words, are as follows:

1. Breaking faith with a covenant marriage partner is breaking faith with God.

2. The breaking of the covenant by a wayward spouse results in a severing of their relationship with God as He refuses to hear or pay attention to offerings or prayers, no matter how sincere.

3. God was party to the marriage covenant as witness and an active participant by making the man and woman His own personal possession.

4. Faithfulness to the marriage covenant is necessary to produce Godly offspring. Without it the future of God's people is threatened.

5. The covenant relationship belongs to the wife or husband of the youth, the first one. This is the union that God is a witness to and the enforcer of.

6. Even though one of the parties may be unfaithful, as described here, to the original covenant, it remains in force for God says that the betrayed one remains the partner. This dispels the notion entirely that adultery dissolves the marriage covenant.

7. God twice warns specifically not to break faith with the spouse of your youth, the original union. These are direct warnings against divorce and remarriage.

8. Divorce is a spiritual attack with spiritual results and lasting spiritual consequences.

9. Divorce is a violent ripping away of the cloak covering the husband provides for his wife and the wife for her husband.

10. God Hates Divorce! He truly does. That's why He never severs the covenant bonds and punishes those who violate them.

As with any sin, when divorce destroys our lives God provides a way for redemption and obedience. We are to sincerly repent of it, and obey His word. Direct instructions are given to those so effected in this way. It is found in 1 Cor. 7:10-11:

"Now for those who are married I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord. A wife must not leave her husband. But if she does leave him, let her remain single or else go back to him. And the husband must not leave his wife." (NLT)

Crazy Liz, As to the other points you mentioned, lets leave it to another day. Phew! You sure make me work Girl! Actually by reading the whole book of Malachi again in order to answer you, God blessed my socks off! We have gone back and forth so many times in the past, I expect you are immune to what I say anyway, although I pray that someday, somehow, you will join with those of us trying to restore the ancient paths. . It is always a pleasure. God bless you sister!

Heartman

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think I'm not the person in this conversation who would claim to be immune to all other arguments and interpretations of scripture. I'm still studying, learning more Greek and Hebrew. I have yet to see how the original languages support your view on the ontological question. If we could agree on that, I think we would quickly agree on everything else.

I often wonder why God allows brothers and sisters to continue to disagree about such important questions.

1 Corinthians 13:12...