Divorce Question

[Beloved2018]

One further question @Beloved2018

Do you wish posts in this thread to give the Catholic [ i.e. Roman / Latin Catholic ] point of view ?

Yes. Please. Thank You.

~Beloved2018

 

[Beloved2018]

I always wondered how church leaders expect women to take care of their kids after a divorce if they can't remarry--especially if the man has run off and is not supporting their kids. Some women have been housewives all their lives and couldn't find a job that would even come close to supporting a family.

---And not be able to partake of the Host...when you're already feeling so unlovable and you need Jesus so much.

~Beloved2018

 

[Michie]

You can partake of the host if you are divorced. It is just when people remarry outside the Church after divorce that the problem begins.

---And not be able to partake of the Host...when you're already feeling so unlovable and you need Jesus so much.

~Beloved2018

 

[chevyontheriver]

My biological father was a serial cheater, verbally and physically abusive. We were on our way to a women's shelter when my grandmother intervened and gave us a home. My siblings and I still have emotional scars. Mom grew up a Confessional Lutheran (they don't take divorce lightly either), it was hard convincing her, it was not a sin to leave. She made vows after all and she took them seriously. She eventually remarried the most God-fearing and paternal Lutheran I had ever known. I consider him a gift of God. He healed our fractured spirits as much as they could be, by any man. He had been married too. He took his vows seriously too. He never planned to divorce either. Then one day, he finds out his wife has been cheating on him throughout their marriage, that she no longer loves him and is leaving him.

I have an aunt who after 20 yrs of marriage to an alcoholic husband was told, 'I love you, but am not in love with you'. He refused to go to marriage counseling.

Now I have cousin going through similar stuff.

What if they were all Catholic? I'd like to tell my cousin, 'Hey why not come to Church with me. Jesus your true Husband is waiting there. Come to a place of solace, where people won't blame you for what he did. I know you're tired. You'll find so much comfort here'. She's 30 yrs old and the look in her eyes and the stress and worry on her face is so sad. I can't lay the burden of sin on her, or on my mom or 'dad' or aunt. They're not the abusers, the adulterers, ect. they're not the ones who broke up a marriage.'

~Beloved2018

Thank you for sharing this. The pain is evident.

I don't know if I'm going to make that better or worse here, but I'm going to try to give a fully Catholic answer. Please read to the end and let me know what you think.

First, marriages are presumed to be valid. The vows given are presumed to be freely given by people with the capacity to give them. That doesn't mean everything will always be perfect. It does mean that the husband and wife are married for the rest of their lives, and the government saying otherwise is meaningless except in a legal sense.

Not all marriages actually are valid. It sometimes happens that one or the other person is not giving a free consent, doesn't understand what they are consenting to, has psychological flaws so deep that they cannot consent meaningfully, big problems that mean they never were validly married. It happens.

For Catholics, we are bound by marriage unless they are invalid, and a marriage is declared invalid by a marriage tribunal made up of canon lawyers who carefully judge the facts of a marriage, particularly what went into the level of consent that went into the vows. I can't sit here and give my views. That would be meaningless. But the canon lawyers examine the evidence of statements from the couple and others, piecing together what happened. Then they rule on whether there is enough evidence to say a real valid marriage never existed.

This is all independent of the government legal system. One who has a decree of nullity can then marry for the first time because that (first) marriage is not recognized as valid.

Switching to separation and civil divorce now, to protect against physical abuse. We all have a right and duty to protect ourselves from attack. So if there is physical abuse it is entirely right to leave the place where the attack is happening. It is entirely right to stay away from that place if another attack will happen. Thus a separation, under those circumstances, is no sin. Sometimes a separation has to be permanent, for example if the angry and violent spouse will not change. Sometimes, to protect legal rights in a separation, a legal divorce is needed. For example, an abusive man can't expect his wife to live on the streets. She has a right to a home and economic security. If there can be no safe reconciliation, a divorce is the legal means of securing her economic security. God hates divorce, but I'm sure He hates a violent man leaving his wife unprotected even more. A divorce might be both necessary and good if it protects one spouse from the other violent spouse.

That is true if they were validly married or not validly married. So getting a divorce is not always or necessarily sinful. It may be right and necessary. The Catholic Church does recognize this. Most people think that a divorced person is cut off from the sacraments. Not so. Only a divorced person whose marriage was valid, who then remarries is cut off from the sacraments. But just by being divorced, that isn't so. Such a person can receive the Eucharist. Such a person should be accepted and embraced by the congregation probably as if widowed. Not spurned but treated tenderly. The sin is not the civil divorce, but the abuse that necessitated it.

Someone divorced due to abuse (or any reason actually) can contact their diocese to go through the annulment process. It is a long soul searching process kind of like an autopsy. No matter the finding it can be very revealing. If they do find the marriage never was valid, then one can marry in the Church. But if one doesn't do this, their original marriage is presumed to still be valid. If one doesn't do this, and then marries again, it is presumed to be polygamy and one is not allowed the sacraments while this situation continues. That can be a painful surprise for people who think it's just normal to divorce and remarry as American culture indicates is the norm.

Bottom line: Separation and even divorce in the case of physical abuse is not a sin. It may be necessary. And one should take a look via the diocesan annulment process to see if the consent was adequate for a real marriage. Maybe it wasn't.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Thank you for sharing your story. I know that the Catholic answer is not always the most favorable. Certainly not in a culture that has made divorce so easily accessible. Certainly there are times when a person is left with no choice but to leave a spouse for safety reasons for themselves or their children. It has been stated, but cannot be overstated that this is not a sin. However, each of us has a cross to bear. Often times that cross is heavy and laden with pain/suffering. In the case of a broken/hard marriage that is def. a hard cross to carry. However, if one is married and has made vows to stay married till death do them part they are responsible for those vows in the eyes of God. Unless of course that marriage is deemed to have never been valid (which has been explored above).

Marriage is something that should be entered into prayerfully and slowly. Discerning and evaluating ones future partner. Granted, people do change as time goes on, however I think that if someone takes the time to really dig down into the person they are possibly marrying they can see the true character from the start. If someone does change so drastically as to become violent and dangerous then of course you should not stay around that person. However, it does not relinquish you of the vow you made. Your vows don't say till death do us part or until one of us becomes violent or abusive or cheats. Marriage is a serious vow made before God to stick it out through sickness and health. For richer or poorer.

Being called to be celibate if your legal marriage does end is hard. There is absolutely no denying that. It is the cross you are called to bear. Christ will help you carry it, but you must be willing to.

Prayers for your family and for you.

 

[Beloved2018]

Thank you for sharing this. The pain is evident.

I don't know if I'm going to make that better or worse here, but I'm going to try to give a fully Catholic answer. Please read to the end and let me know what you think.

First, marriages are presumed to be valid. The vows given are presumed to be freely given by people with the capacity to give them. That doesn't mean everything will always be perfect. It does mean that the husband and wife are married for the rest of their lives, and the government saying otherwise is meaningless except in a legal sense.

Not all marriages actually are valid. It sometimes happens that one or the other person is not giving a free consent, doesn't understand what they are consenting to, has psychological flaws so deep that they cannot consent meaningfully, big problems that mean they never were validly married. It happens.

For Catholics, we are bound by marriage unless they are invalid, and a marriage is declared invalid by a marriage tribunal made up of canon lawyers who carefully judge the facts of a marriage, particularly what went into the level of consent that went into the vows. I can't sit here and give my views. That would be meaningless. But the canon lawyers examine the evidence of statements from the couple and others, piecing together what happened. Then they rule on whether there is enough evidence to say a real valid marriage never existed.

This is all independent of the government legal system. One who has a decree of nullity can then marry for the first time because that (first) marriage is not recognized as valid.

Switching to separation and civil divorce now, to protect against physical abuse. We all have a right and duty to protect ourselves from attack. So if there is physical abuse it is entirely right to leave the place where the attack is happening. It is entirely right to stay away from that place if another attack will happen. Thus a separation, under those circumstances, is no sin. Sometimes a separation has to be permanent, for example if the angry and violent spouse will not change. Sometimes, to protect legal rights in a separation, a legal divorce is needed. For example, an abusive man can't expect his wife to live on the streets. She has a right to a home and economic security. If there can be no safe reconciliation, a divorce is the legal means of securing her economic security. God hates divorce, but I'm sure He hates a violent man leaving his wife unprotected even more. A divorce might be both necessary and good if it protects one spouse from the other violent spouse.

That is true if they were validly married or not validly married. So getting a divorce is not always or necessarily sinful. It may be right and necessary. The Catholic Church does recognize this. Most people think that a divorced person is cut off from the sacraments. Not so. Only a divorced person whose marriage was valid, who then remarries is cut off from the sacraments. But just by being divorced, that isn't so. Such a person can receive the Eucharist. Such a person should be accepted and embraced by the congregation probably as if widowed. Not spurned but treated tenderly. The sin is not the civil divorce, but the abuse that necessitated it.

Someone divorced due to abuse (or any reason actually) can contact their diocese to go through the annulment process. It is a long soul searching process kind of like an autopsy. No matter the finding it can be very revealing. If they do find the marriage never was valid, then one can marry in the Church. But if one doesn't do this, their original marriage is presumed to still be valid. If one doesn't do this, and then marries again, it is presumed to be polygamy and one is not allowed the sacraments while this situation continues. That can be a painful surprise for people who think it's just normal to divorce and remarry as American culture indicates is the norm.

Bottom line: Separation and even divorce in the case of physical abuse is not a sin. It may be necessary. And one should take a look via the diocesan annulment process to see if the consent was adequate for a real marriage. Maybe it wasn't.

Chevy, your reply was very informative. Thank you. What is the Catholic position on Protestant (or Orthodox) remarriage since they do not have access to the annulment process?

 

[Beloved2018]

Thank you for sharing your story. I know that the Catholic answer is not always the most favorable. Certainly not in a culture that has made divorce so easily accessible. Certainly there are times when a person is left with no choice but to leave a spouse for safety reasons for themselves or their children. It has been stated, but cannot be overstated that this is not a sin. However, each of us has a cross to bear. Often times that cross is heavy and laden with pain/suffering. In the case of a broken/hard marriage that is def. a hard cross to carry. However, if one is married and has made vows to stay married till death do them part they are responsible for those vows in the eyes of God. Unless of course that marriage is deemed to have never been valid (which has been explored above).

Marriage is something that should be entered into prayerfully and slowly. Discerning and evaluating ones future partner. Granted, people do change as time goes on, however I think that if someone takes the time to really dig down into the person they are possibly marrying they can see the true character from the start. If someone does change so drastically as to become violent and dangerous then of course you should not stay around that person. However, it does not relinquish you of the vow you made. Your vows don't say till death do us part or until one of us becomes violent or abusive or cheats. Marriage is a serious vow made before God to stick it out through sickness and health. For richer or poorer.

Being called to be celibate if your legal marriage does end is hard. There is absolutely no denying that. It is the cross you are called to bear. Christ will help you carry it, but you must be willing to.

Prayers for your family and for you.

What if your spouse just basically up and leaves? My aunt knew her husband was an alcoholic but had no intention of divorcing him. She was in it for the long haul.

 

[Beloved2018]

You can partake of the host if you are divorced. It is just when people remarry outside the Church after divorce that the problem begins.

Thank you Michie. I do feel better on that account.

 

[Michie]

You're welcome. The Church is not nearly as harsh in these matters as I used to think before I converted. I do hope this thread is making you feel better.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Chevy, your reply was very informative. Thank you. What is the Catholic position on Protestant (or Orthodox) remarriage since they do not have access to the annulment process?

Basically we consider Protestant and Orthodox marriages to be real marriages, permanent marriages, the first marriage that is. So if a Protestant gets a divorce and then remarries, the Catholic Church can't recognize that until and unless the first marriage is declared by a Catholic marriage tribunal not to have been valid in the first place. Most Protestants don't care what the Catholic Church might say about their marriage, so it only comes into effect when a Protestant who was married before seeks to marry a Catholic, or when a Protestant married once and married again after divorce seeks to become a Catholic. Then they would have to seek an annulment and hope it came out that the first marriage was a null one. The rest of Protestants have their own rules, whether good or bad, for dealing with this. Some see remarriage after divorce to be no big deal. Others see it as a big deal. Few would be as careful and strict as the Catholic Church. But the various Protestant mileages vary.

I think this is relevant to your mother and step-father. Since they were both Lutheran, whatever the rules are for that particular branch of Lutherans applies to them. But if they would seek to become Catholic, both of them would need to have their first marriages examined to see if they were null, and have that done by Catholic canon lawyers who were canon law judges. Because maybe the Lutheran process was sound, and maybe not. Who knows. Not me. I can't judge whether your mother's first marriage is able to be annulled. Maybe so. Your step-fathers? I have no idea. For more information on this you would have to seek out and ask your Catholic diocese' canon law judges. Your priest might be able to also provide some information. I'm not a canon lawyer. I don't even pretend to be one on the internet. But the ones I have met have been humane and understanding. Don't be afraid to ask. An annulment is time consuming. Lots and lots of documentation is needed. Some of it can be painful to unearth because it can open up old wounds one would like to forget. It's not very expensive. Considering the cost of divorce lawyers it is tiny.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What if your spouse just basically up and leaves? My aunt knew her husband was an alcoholic but had no intention of divorcing him. She was in it for the long haul.

Good for your aunt that she was in it for the long haul. Even if he wasn't. She should investigate an annulment. Maybe uncle was so flawed when they got married that he was never in it at all. Otherwise she is still in it for the long haul, praying for him, being faithful to a missing man, being a witness to the unstopping fidelity the Church has to the Lord. That could be a hard thing.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

What if your spouse just basically up and leaves? My aunt knew her husband was an alcoholic but had no intention of divorcing him. She was in it for the long haul.

Then she must still be in it for the long haul. Also, she can always ask for an annulment and see what happens. It sounds like her husband might have had some mental issues etc. If she isn't granted one then she should remain celibate. Again, I know it's a heavy cross to carry, but how much heavier was Christ's?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Chevy, your reply was very informative. Thank you. What is the Catholic position on Protestant (or Orthodox) remarriage since they do not have access to the annulment process?

I'm a protestant convert. I was confirmed about three years after I got divorced. Before my confirmation I went through the annulment process. My ex-wife is still a protestant, she got remarried to a pentecostal youth pastor about four months after our divorce was finalized.

There wasn't any cheating or abuse in our marriage, we were just way too young to get married and weren't together long enough to really know each other by the time we did. It was a rash decision made by two recently-broken hearted people who weren't thinking clearly.

If the Church had not nullified our marriage, they would've regarded her marriage as invalid and thus she would've been in mortal sin in the eyes of the Church. Now since she has no interest in the Catholic Church that doesn't make her flinch, but for someone like me who was converting, that was a life changing concept. When I was going through the process I knew there was a possibility that they would determine my marriage was valid, in which case I would be obligated to live out my days in celibacy.

Fortunately the tribunal determined that there was a grave lack of due discretion when analyzing the testimony and the circumstances of our wedding and marriage, and so our marriage was determined to be invalid.

 

[Beloved2018]

Basically we consider Protestant and Orthodox marriages to be real marriages, permanent marriages, the first marriage that is. So if a Protestant gets a divorce and then remarries, the Catholic Church can't recognize that until and unless the first marriage is declared by a Catholic marriage tribunal not to have been valid in the first place. Most Protestants don't care what the Catholic Church might say about their marriage, so it only comes into effect when a Protestant who was married before seeks to marry a Catholic, or when a Protestant married once and married again after divorce seeks to become a Catholic. Then they would have to seek an annulment and hope it came out that the first marriage was a null one. The rest of Protestants have their own rules, whether good or bad, for dealing with this. Some see remarriage after divorce to be no big deal. Others see it as a big deal. Few would be as careful and strict as the Catholic Church. But the various Protestant mileages vary.

I think this is relevant to your mother and step-father. Since they were both Lutheran, whatever the rules are for that particular branch of Lutherans applies to them. But if they would seek to become Catholic, both of them would need to have their first marriages examined to see if they were null, and have that done by Catholic canon lawyers who were canon law judges. Because maybe the Lutheran process was sound, and maybe not. Who knows. Not me. I can't judge whether your mother's first marriage is able to be annulled. Maybe so. Your step-fathers? I have no idea. For more information on this you would have to seek out and ask your Catholic diocese' canon law judges. Your priest might be able to also provide some information. I'm not a canon lawyer. I don't even pretend to be one on the internet. But the ones I have met have been humane and understanding. Don't be afraid to ask. An annulment is time consuming. Lots and lots of documentation is needed. Some of it can be painful to unearth because it can open up old wounds one would like to forget. It's not very expensive. Considering the cost of divorce lawyers it is tiny.

My 'dad' passed away before we joined the Catholic Church. When I asked about the validity of their marriage, I was told that it was valid. Nothing more was said. Mom was received into the Church at the same time I was (with no annulment process). So yeah...I'm confused.

 

[Michie]

If your father died, there is no need for annulment.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

My 'dad' passed away before we joined the Catholic Church. When I asked about the validity of their marriage, I was told that it was valid. Nothing more was said. Mom was received into the Church at the same time I was (with no annulment process). So yeah...I'm confused.

Beloved are you in the middle of a divorce or thinking about one?

I want you to know that none of my responses are meant to be harsh or are attacks on you. This is a tough world and we are often faced with tough decisions. I am praying.

 

[Beloved2018]

Then she must still be in it for the long haul. Also, she can always ask for an annulment and see what happens. It sounds like her husband might have had some mental issues etc. If she isn't granted one then she should remain celibate. Again, I know it's a heavy cross to carry, but how much heavier was Christ's?

This sounds like victim blaming. He has problems yes and uses alcohol to deal with them. But she loves him nevertheless...still does...We all do! But when I say he up and left, I literally mean he up and left. You can't hog tie someone to the couch. She was devoted to him and would still be married today..but he left...as in moving out...to his sister's...then to another state. He wanted the divorce.

 

[Beloved2018]

If your father died, there is no need for annument.

Beloved are you in the middle of a divorce or thinking about one?

I want you to know that none of my responses are meant to be harsh or are attacks on you. This is a tough world and we are often faced with tough decisions. I am praying.

Thank you sweetie. No I am not in the middle of a divorce. I absolutely hate divorce. It makes me sick to my stomach, but so does what leads up to it. Also, Marriage scares and I have a serious distrust of most men to ever really be an equal partner with one. Jesus is it for me.

 

[Beloved2018]

If your father died, there is no need for annulment.

But my mother's still alive.

 

[RaymondG]

Good for your aunt that she was in it for the long haul. Even if he wasn't. She should investigate an annulment. Maybe uncle was so flawed when they got married that he was never in it at all. Otherwise she is still in it for the long haul, praying for him, being faithful to a missing man, being a witness to the unstopping fidelity the Church has to the Lord. That could be a hard thing.

I have to say, Im impressed with your knowledge of the Catholic faith. Im impressed with the faith as well.......the attention to detail and set rules and laws to follow are amazing...and very unlike the protestant churches im used to.

What about a sinner wanting to become a Catholic.....who is in his second marriage with children......who left the first wife for no good reason at all (so the first would still be valid). Is there a concept of forgiveness of sins and walking anew....or would this sinner be forced to leave his current family before being allowed to enter the church?